BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
Jwood & co JRC Engineering dealers Jwood & co
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Spitfire Ken
Spitfire Ken
Illinois
Posts: 211
Joined: April 2013
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
28 registered members (BikeVice), 204 guests, and 417 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
FireGuyKC, spuggy, Vinny Cotroneo, KeithM, Mridul Handa
10285 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Stuart 97
Lannis 62
Popular Topics(Views)
633,845 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics67,352
Posts653,894
Members10,285
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? #308346
04/16/10 12:30 am
04/16/10 12:30 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline OP

Life member
JubeePrince  Offline OP

Life member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
So I found a machining firm close to my house. I mean close! Like walk to it close! They have lots of CNC machinery and the like...rreally long lathes, etc. They do a lot of automotive work (Corvettes, Mustangs, etc) I spoke to a guy named Barry (british no less!) and he said he could do it for 150.00 - 180.00 dollars...

He estimates 2 - 3 hours to set up the machinery (computer controlled), block off the guides, etc....

Am I barking up the wrong tree? Sounds like an awful lot of work (and money!) to counter bore four holes....

What do you think? Fair? Should I look for a smaller outfit?

TIA,

Steve

Last edited by JubeePrince; 04/16/10 12:31 am. Reason: They do a lot of...

'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308359
04/16/10 1:38 am
04/16/10 1:38 am
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 629
San Rafael, Ca.
BikeVice Online content
BritBike Forum member
BikeVice  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 629
San Rafael, Ca.
Steve,

That machinist wants to use an elephant gun to kill a fly. Spot facing those 4 holes would take about 1/2 an hour on a small vertical mill (a Bridgeport or a clone for example) and could probably even be done on a drill press.

Eric


1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: BikeVice] #308364
04/16/10 2:46 am
04/16/10 2:46 am
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 882
Earth
R
rick e. Offline
BritBike Forum member
rick e.  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 882
Earth
I assume you are removing the ridge and going with larger washers?

I would say 15 minutes tops.


"Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Carbon monoxide making sure it's effective...
----THE CLASH-----

Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308365
04/16/10 3:02 am
04/16/10 3:02 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
15 minutes sounds like a rush-job,but not impossible if you have the right tools;harder to do on a CNC mill.I'd probably spend a little more time,but $50 would be easy money.

Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #308370
04/16/10 3:39 am
04/16/10 3:39 am
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Diamond Springs, Kalifornia
Buckshot1 Offline

BritBike Forum member
Buckshot1  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Diamond Springs, Kalifornia
WAY too much. If a guy had the right size counterbore tool with proper pilot, and a drill press...

Got a drill press available, Steve?

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVSM?PACACHE=000000134874885

Link to some c/bore tools if ya wanna DIY.


Michael

currently owned by a 72 T120R
maker of plunger conversion jig
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #308374
04/16/10 3:43 am
04/16/10 3:43 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,717
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,717
ca, us
A CNC can be run like a manual machine, just turning the jog dial on the computer rather than the Acme thread dials. A descent operator could spot everything by eye-balling centre over the bolt holes and jogging Z down until it cleans up.

Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: DMadigan] #308410
04/16/10 12:02 pm
04/16/10 12:02 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline OP

Life member
JubeePrince  Offline OP

Life member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
Thanks everyone for the input! You have all confirmed my suspicions, but I just wanted to be sure....

The search for a shop continues...off to Google....

Michael, as much as I enjoy DIY, I don't have the room for a toy like that!

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308445
04/16/10 4:55 pm
04/16/10 4:55 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Diamond Springs, Kalifornia
Buckshot1 Offline

BritBike Forum member
Buckshot1  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Diamond Springs, Kalifornia
Good luck, Steve. Don't under estimate the purchasing power of a 12 pack. Truly amazing.


Michael

currently owned by a 72 T120R
maker of plunger conversion jig
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: Buckshot1] #308469
04/16/10 7:29 pm
04/16/10 7:29 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,895
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
B
btour Offline
BritBike Forum member
btour  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,895
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Steve,

Why not try an experiment? Find some copper stock. Get a variable hole saw to cut the outer diameter of the divot you have now. A drill to match the stud size. And make your own washer to fit the divot. Anneal the copper soft. It should squish down to fill, after you have laid the larger washer over it. That may seal it, just fine.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: btour] #308474
04/16/10 7:57 pm
04/16/10 7:57 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 157
P
Pat Offline
BritBike Forum member
Pat  Offline
BritBike Forum member
P
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 157
Do you have access to a drill press? Put a drill bit in the drill and line the hole in the head. Clamp down the head and get woodworking spade bit that will trim the surface. VERY slowly drop the spade bit to shave the surface flat. Or instead use a carbide router face cutter.

Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: Pat] #308491
04/16/10 10:08 pm
04/16/10 10:08 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,147
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,147
Boston, Massachusetts
Steve: Before you do anything hasty with head please email or PM me.
John


Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308493
04/16/10 10:25 pm
04/16/10 10:25 pm
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
Do you have a tap-reseating tool;like plumbers use when they fit new washers.(Maybe they call them faucet washers in the US).I was just looking at one,which cost about $10.It has a 3/4" cutter and a 7/8" cutter,which screw onto a 5/16" UNC male thread.
With a little ingenuity,one of these tools could do the job.You could probably even reseat it by hand if you screwed on a pilot to register in the bolt hole.

Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #308506
04/16/10 11:09 pm
04/16/10 11:09 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline OP

Life member
JubeePrince  Offline OP

Life member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
John,

PM sent....


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308532
04/17/10 1:58 am
04/17/10 1:58 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline OP

Life member
JubeePrince  Offline OP

Life member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
Well, John, hope this wasn't too hasty! whistle

To make a long story short, I went to a welding shop today (8 miles from my home). He sent me to a machine shop where he gets his aluminum work done (1/2 mile from my home). He says he doesn't/can't/won't do the job, but he knows someone named Jerry who has machining tools at home. He gives me Jerry's number and says he keeps odd hours....don't be surprised if you reach him at 10PM....

So I call Jerry about 4PM today. I tell him so-and-so from so-and-so gave me your number and said you may be able to help me out. The guy sounds like he's in the early stages of emphysema. He says: "Can you bring it over now?" I says, "sure"!

I pull up to his home, (4 miles from MY home) show him what I have and he says, "hell, this is a 15 minute job....you wanna come back and pick it up later?" I say "sure, how about Monday or Tuesday?" He's staring at the head in his hands and says "oh, you can come back tonite, just give me your number and I'll call."

"How much do you want for the job?" I asked. He says "ten dollars!" I told him that was very kind of him and what kind of beer did he drink? He doesn't drink! Smokes like a steel mill, but doesn't drink! laugh He told me if I wanted to give him more, that was OK, whatever I thought fair....(I wasn't going to buy the guy a carton of cigs!)

So I picked the head up about 30 minutes ago and gave Jerry a 20 spot (should I have given him more? blush ) and thanked him profusely. He told me if I ever needed anything else done, to give him a call....

You meet some of the nicest people in the most roundabout of ways!!

So much for making along story short...

Oh, here's a shot of the head with the spot face. I only had him remove as much material as needed to get rid of the ridge from the original washers...



Thanks for all the help and suggestions guys, but I'm glad things worked out the way they did.

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308535
04/17/10 2:17 am
04/17/10 2:17 am
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Diamond Springs, Kalifornia
Buckshot1 Offline

BritBike Forum member
Buckshot1  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Diamond Springs, Kalifornia
You meet the nicest folks when you get referrals that way. $20 was good. You're both happy, as it should be.


Michael

currently owned by a 72 T120R
maker of plunger conversion jig
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308543
04/17/10 3:34 am
04/17/10 3:34 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
JubeePrince:Its a little hard to tell from the photo,but check the tops of the guide bores for chamfering:make sure there isn't any.A chamfer will collect oil and increase oil consumption.
Pete.

Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308577
04/17/10 11:10 am
04/17/10 11:10 am
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 869
QLD, Australia
R
RetroRod Offline
BritBike Forum member
RetroRod  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 869
QLD, Australia
Hey Steve,

I recall you saying that head is stock, has never been machined to straighten?

If so, do me a favour and post the thickness measurement. RR


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: RetroRod] #308596
04/17/10 1:59 pm
04/17/10 1:59 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline OP

Life member
JubeePrince  Offline OP

Life member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
Hi Pete,

Upon inspection, the ends of the guides do have different profiles. I would say the exhaust guide does appear to have a bit of a chamfer compared to to the inlet:

Inlet:



Exhaust:



I expect that the machined groove in the 'neck' of the inlet guide is for fitting the optional seals...perhaps oil finding its way into the combustion chamber via the ex. guides is less of an issue as opposed to inlet guides, hence the different guide profiles?

RR - Not scientific, but the distance from the machined deck to the casting surface is ~.060" - ~.070"

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308609
04/17/10 4:00 pm
04/17/10 4:00 pm
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
It still looks like chamfers in the tops of the guide-bores.If so,you have nothing to lose by filing the tops of the guides to get a sharp,square edge on the top of the bores.
I think RetroRod might be looking for an overall thickness of the head.

Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #308672
04/17/10 11:43 pm
04/17/10 11:43 pm
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 869
QLD, Australia
R
RetroRod Offline
BritBike Forum member
RetroRod  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 869
QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: Pete R
It still looks like chamfers in the tops of the guide-bores.If so,you have nothing to lose by filing the tops of the guides to get a sharp,square edge on the top of the bores.
I think RetroRod might be looking for an overall thickness of the head.


I think they look chamfered too.

I was looking for the overall thickness, but Steve's answer will do the trick. I think it could be useful when examining 2nd hand heads to gauge just how much has been "taken" from them. RR


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: RetroRod] #308689
04/18/10 1:16 am
04/18/10 1:16 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline OP

Life member
JubeePrince  Offline OP

Life member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,405
Back on the mainland!
Wow -

Don't know WHAT happened to my earlier post!! I KNOW I responded to Pete and posted the overall thickness here...!?!?!? Oh, well, lost in the ether I guess!

So let's have another go...

Pete-
Thanks again for the feedback....I'll think about what I want to do....if I'm fitting the viton O-rings you mentioned in a previous post, wouldn't that be sufficient? :confused

RetroRod -
Overall thickness of head is 2.80" (+/- .005")..again, not scientific, but it should give you a pretty good baseline to work from....that's gasket surface to gasket surface (head to rockerbox)

HTH,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308693
04/18/10 1:56 am
04/18/10 1:56 am
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 869
QLD, Australia
R
RetroRod Offline
BritBike Forum member
RetroRod  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 869
QLD, Australia
You're a good old boy Steve! Thanks very much. RR


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: JubeePrince] #308702
04/18/10 3:31 am
04/18/10 3:31 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
I'd remove the inner chamfers completely,probably with a file,and leave the edge sharp.I do the "pencil-sharpener" job on the top face to almost eliminate the flat face.I made a tool which pilots in the valve guide to trim the face at 120 degree included angle,like sharpening a pencil.
A narrow square face on the top of the guide is not so bad,but a chamfer in the top of the bore increases oil consumption.
Maybe this is why some people resort to using valve-stem seals.

Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #308705
04/18/10 4:25 am
04/18/10 4:25 am
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 869
QLD, Australia
R
RetroRod Offline
BritBike Forum member
RetroRod  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 869
QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: Pete R

Maybe this is why some people resort to using valve-stem seals.


Hi Pete,

Now you have roused my interest here. In my ignorance. I once asked if the reconditioned head included valve stem seals. I've since understood they are not used because these heads aren't exposed to the oil we see in car engines.

That said, I could not see how a set of the umbrella type could do any harm at all, and in some circumstances, just may help. Like any 4 stroke engine, these suck hard on the over ride, and if there's oil to be had they'll have it.

I suspect getting a set to fit snugly and stay in place may be the challenge. RR

Last edited by RetroRod; 04/18/10 4:26 am.

'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
Re: Cost to spot face inner head bolt surfaces? [Re: RetroRod] #308789
04/18/10 6:21 pm
04/18/10 6:21 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Diamond Springs, Kalifornia
Buckshot1 Offline

BritBike Forum member
Buckshot1  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 281
Diamond Springs, Kalifornia
While looking back at the posts to this thread, I noticed some possible misconceptions relating to machining.

Steve-
Have you placed a short -straight- edge on the spotfaces? Please do so and notice if you can rock it on the surface or if you can see any light between face and edge.

Originally Posted By: DMadigan
A CNC can be run like a manual machine, just turning the jog dial on the computer rather than the Acme thread dials. A descent operator could spot everything by eye-balling centre over the bolt holes and jogging Z down until it cleans up.


This comment made me think of the tool geometry involved. *Ass uming* that someone was going to do this by using an end mill of proper size, the result would be a surface tapering deeper toward the outer edge. This would be from the profile of the cutting edge on the bottom. An end mill is mostly used to cut sideways, X and Y on a vertical machine. To get a good finish and flat surface during this cutting, the tool can not be flat across the bottom, it needs some relief between the tips or it would drag and leave a poor finish and/or an uneven surface. A counter bore tool is generally going to have a 'flat' bottom, because it is not used to cut side to side. Now, cutting tools are an investment, and referred to as 'perishable tooling'. Ask me how I know that a shop simply can't have every tool that could be needed on hand. Many shops would be more likely to have an end mill that would be sized within the range for this application, but may not have a counter bore. This because an end mill is more versatile than a c/bore.

In a case as this, an end mill would need to be somewhat less diameter than the surface to be cut and walked around to give a flat surface. It's possible to have a flat bottom end mill, but I don't think it's likely that someone would grind one just to do 4 spot faces.

As for the guy wanting the huge $$, maybe he was not really a machinist, or was perversely greedy?


Michael

currently owned by a 72 T120R
maker of plunger conversion jig
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  John Healy 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1