Ever notice how people come out of the woodwork whenever someone has an interesting project? Kind of neat, huh?
About that lower rear strut; I have to be careful whenever I kick mine, because my footwear clears the strut by about 1/4 of an inch. If it is further to the rear, you'll have a more stable connection "grid" for the chair, and since you are building a sub-frame for it, you can have it anywhere you want.
Just one more thought to muddy the waters.....
Barb (Three MustGetBeers) "Midnight girl in a sunset town.."
Britney the B44 Bella the '69 T120 Pip the Triumph (I have "Great Expectations!") Jaelith the '77 XS650/chair The unnamed '79 XS650 with...potential Millie the R80 BMW--she's "Thoroughly Modern"
As you are rapidly learning, side cars are one half science and one half voodoo magic. I'm glad I didn't have all these folks chiming in when my step sons and I set the rig up with the little Beemer . . . I'm easily confused.. You'll find that each person will have their own take on how to go about the task, but I'm sure you'll sift through it. An asymetrical vehicle with a single drive wheel far off to one side . . . silliest thing I ever heard of!
As to your choice of bikes for a tug . . . remember that there were 250cc machines running all over Europe and the UK with chairs attached.
Now, on a personal note. Thanks to the photos in this thread, the whole world is now aware of what a cheap skate I am. The last time I checked that tire on the way home from the west coast was on the far side of Texas and there was still some tread pattern showing . . . imagine my surprise when I got home and discovered that there was thread showing all the way around. In this case, ignorance was bliss.
It appears that you are going about it in the proper manner, and I hope you derive as much pleasure from the quintessential camping vehilcle as I did.
Floyd aka Sonny
Floyd (Member: ThreeMustGetBeers)
There are no demons inside my helmet; only the magic of the Universe gliding past my every sense. 1951 BSA C11(Leaky Lena) 2010 BMW G650 GS(Scarlett)
I'm also a very newcomer to side car-ing! I have fitted my rig, a fifties Watsonian Avon to my 1949 plunger Star Twin. The settings and measurements you mention Gordon are about right but once you get mobile with it all you'll find you'll be making a few adjustments here and there, it's all about 'Feel' but I'll tell you what! It's brilliant fun and a most unusual and weird contraption to ride, totally different from solo riding. Keep at it mate as it is well worth the work that it takes. The picture below... Not finished as I still have work to do on it, noticeably the mudguard.
LJ. ******* 1940 BSA M20 500cc Girder/Rigid- In Bits! 1947 BSA M21 600cc Girder/Rigid-Green 1949 BSA A7 500cc Girder/Plunger Star Twin-Black 1953 BSA B33 500cc Teles/Plunger-Maroon 1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Blue 1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Red
Really NICE rig LJ, thanks for posting that picture.
Jim....I hear ya
Norton bob...you're talking engine sprocket.. ...not a bad idea. I have the smaller C15 sprockets w/seals here in the shop. Used them on my trials unit single....not a bad idea at all....I'll keep that in mind.
I've sort of ground to a halt. Finally got around to figuring out what I was going to do with the struts and have decided to use Velorex's "sliding clamp assembly" for the lower rear strut instead of having something welded up. With the sliding clamp...you can put it anywhere you want....I like that. I've also decided to move my wheel offset ahead by 2"....to 10" of wheel lead/offset. That way I my struts fit the bike better. I really don't want to move the upper struts on the sidecar frame...they seem to be in the right place to me just like they are. So.....I'm waiting for some parts to come in from Velorex USA and I'm STILL searching for a new tire. Anybody happen to have a new 3.50/16 square profile tire they want to get rid of??? (100/90-16 or MM90-16)
Pictures to follow, I'll be back to working on the subframe this weekend.
Thanks to all who have taken the time to share...it helps us all.
Take care....your friend in NC, USA....Gordon Gray
I haven't given up on this project....but I'm still waiting on a couple of attachmnet bits from Velorex. I'm finding out that the Brit bike dealers I use have spoiled me...I'll not forget that in the future.
Take care....almost hacked in NC, USA....Gordon Gray
As to your choice of bikes for a tug . . . remember that there were 250cc machines running all over Europe and the UK with chairs attached.
Aged 3 I emigrated from Ireland to the UK in a sidecar attached to a James Captain, also on board 2 adults and an older sibling.
What a neat little bike... hauling a family of 4. That's just so un American but I LOVE it.
I don't have a problem going 45-50mph all day long...I can plan for it and enjoy every mile. Don't get me wrong, I like to twist the throttle too, but there's a time and a place for everything. I have a feeling the B44 (or B50) will do okay and hopefully before to long I'll be able to form my own opinion.
But for now....I'm still waiting for parts.....Gordon Gray in NC, USA
I haven’t been posting to this thread because I’ve been waiting for parts and pretty much can’t do much without them. Well I’m still waiting but decided to move forward on the sub frame construction and just hope I’m not shooting myself in the foot.
Here’s a photo of where I am on the sub frame, just starting the fabrication.
Because of a conflict with the kick starter (and muffler)I’ll not be able to have all four struts (the attachmnet points) of the sidecar on one sub frame. So I ended up with two separate sub frames. The upper rear strut will attach to the flat bar you see in the picture. Both the lower struts (front and rear) will attach to the piece you see below the engine….and that sub frame (when I’m finished) will also catch the upper front strut. (on a peice of square tubing running up the front downtube)
Why a sub frame??? If your like me, you’d never heard of one. I thought you used a type of frame clamp that you attached to the bike’s frame. I had looked at several side car companies on line and that’s pretty much what I was seeing offered. There is an adjustable frame clamp you can use but what happens is that you’re using your bikes frame as attachment points and you’re putting all the stress (and I’m being told there’s lots of it) on just four points of your frame. With a sub frame you’re trying to distribute those forces over a larger area.
An example, look at the flat bar I’m using for the upper rear strut. It’s attached to the upper shock mount and the swing arm. (bolt through the swing arm spindle)…so the forces the sidecar puts on that strut are divided between those two points…..instead of the bikes frame tube only, (if I was using the adjustable clamp).
I don’t know….maybe in this case ignorance might have been bliss. If I hadn’t been told to use a sub frame (thanks D.Bachtel ) I would have already had this rig hooked up. But talking to people I know and trust…tell me this is the way to go. I do wish somebody else had already done this and could just send me some pictures and some shop drawings….and I wouldn’t be doing all this head and butt scratching.
This is borrowed off the http://www.advrider.com/ if you look at the "Hacks" section under "Sidecars-lets see em" you'll find some pictures taken by Kev..and I do believe there's some pictures of one of Shaun Kent's rig.
Hi Gordon - I think you're on the right track! Each outfit is different and has its own "particulars," you just have to learn them. My BSA B60/Squire rig has 1" of toe-in, 1" higher in the front than in the rear, 10" of lead, and 1/2" of lean. I also use a small steering damper up front. My lower rear strut clamps to the center of the frame on the short cross-piece directly behind the motor, and has worked for 20 years. My upper rear strut attaches to a special bolt a machinist buddy of mine made up that replaces the upper right shock bolt. I have room for my 14EEE boot to use the T160 folding kickstarter. After you finish your build and get over the initial shock of driving your rig, you can fine-tune the handling. When I started my project I had never ridden in nor driven a hack, and initially thought I'd created a "monster." That left after about 30 miles, but is a whole new learning curve. Don't get discouraged, you'll love it once you get the hang of it. Since 2003 I've used a subframe bolted to the bike in 5 places on both sides to attach my Velorex 700S to my KTM Duke combination, but that's a whole other story. Sidecar outfits aren't for everyone, but you'll draw a crowd everywhere and really enjoy it when camping. Good Luck!
Thanks for the encouragement Bob and for taking the time to share.
Camping is the main focus for my rig so I'm looking forward to this on a lot of levels.
I figure there's been a lot of unit singles fitted with a sidecar but finding info and pictures of them is proving to be difficult. That's the reason I started this thread in hopes it might help someone else through the process.
Your rig is VERY, VERY nice and with the miles you've put on it.....well, that speaks for itself.
Hope you don't mind me posting a picture of it?
I'm looking at the steering damper....the VW units aren't very pricey and I would think...worst case...it couldn't hurt.
I'm attaching the lower sub frame (which will catch 3 of the side car struts) to everything I can....including both the forward and bottom engine mounts, the center stands lugs, the gusset on the down tube just below the steering head. Once it's in place...I think I can also get something (a brace) back to the rear engine mount.
I've just started the fabrication of the lower sub frame...it will be boxed in with a piece of square tubing on the other side of the bike.
I'm moving slowly.....I'm still learning and don't want to do a lot of backing up.
Take care and thanks again for taking the time to share....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray
I don't know how to post pictures of my rigs on this forum. Maybe Gordon could do it for me if he still has them. I'm 72 this summer and couldn't ride the KTM like it was intended, so I built my outfit with the professional help of long-time rigger Bob Wark (the Warkshop) of Marietta, OH. Brought it to Daytona in 2004, and every year since. My wife likes to ride in the chairs, and both average 45 mpg. The KTM/Velorex rig presented some interesting engineering challenges, but with over 10,000 miles on it, I think it has proven itself, and with the black and adrenelin orange paint, it still always draws a crowd. Sorry for the non-BSA reply.
....snip....Gordon's pretty good at it, and as a stay at home dad with nothing better to do than wrestle a sidecar together perhaps he would post a another photo or two for all......snip....I think others would like to see more info on the "B60" for sure! Don in Nipomo (home of jockos)
Gee Don....you sure know how to make a feller feel USELESS
Bob sent me three pictures total of his B60 and I posted all three of them on my "Motorcycle Camping" thread. The one I posted here shows the B60 the best, the other two have the bike pretty far away.
I for one would LOVE to see more pictures of Bob's B60....I'll post the pictures, no problem. From what I can see his B60 is stunning, home market tank, alloy wheels...I'd love to see more and if we can talk Bob into sending me some....I'll post em for sure. THE MORE THE BETTER.
I started this thread in hopes it might help somebody else hook up a side car to a BSA unit single...ANYBODY that has ANY info/picture/stories they want to share you're more than welcome to do so.
Okay a little more progress. I keep dragging my feet in hopes somebody will chime in amd save me from myself...."Gordon! stop!!! here's how I did it...."
Oh well....I'll keep plodding alone and keep my fingers crossed somebody will speak up before I kill myself.
The lower section is almost ready to clip and shape the tabs and tack weld everything together. I'm still head scratching on the piece that's running up the down tube. It's for the upper front mount (this side car has four attachmnet points). I have an plan...I'm just not there yet.
Somebody asked (via email) about the materials I'm using. All the square tubing is 11 guage ( 1", 1 1/4" and 1 1/2") and the clips are 1/4" plate. I figure it's at least as strong as the bike's frame. The two rod eyes/ends you see laying on the lower subframe are for the upper struts and are 12mm (thanks to Velorex). I have 14mm rod eyes/ends on order for the lower attachment points. I'm going to have to lengthen two of my struts...more on that later.
Honestly, I'd probably miter the 1X1 tubing, and trim the tabs back a bit for symmetry. I like the inside outside tab grab on the bottom rail,nice split,guess your starting to understand that "boxing" approach.
Looks great, be sure to establish a level height with the chairs new tire and prelaod the bikes rear shocks when you set it up square. Toe in lean out later, if ever.
Xlnt work, you have now provided me with a working prototype for the 66VE frame. Thanks!
Don in Nipomo
1956 Zundapp KS601EL 1960 Greeves Scottish/Hawkstone Velorex 560 1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire 1964 Triumph T20SM 1965 BSA C15T 1966 BSA VE 1968 Bonham Tote Gote 1969 BSA VS 1970 BSA A65L (with a "Y") 1972 Husqvarna 450 WR 1986 Yamaha TT 225 1987 BMW K75C
Honestly, I'd probably miter the 1X1 tubing, and trim the tabs back a bit for symmetry....snip....Don in Nipomo
Good points Don....I thought about both of them but if you saw the way I have to cut the tubing...you might change your mind
The tabs I had lying around....4"x4"x1/4" column shims. I'm trying to cut (pun intended) down on having to cut stuff. The center stand tabs are the same width 4"x2"x1/4" (I just cut one plate in half) I figured it wouldn't hurt to catch as much of the tubing as I could.
I'm still not 100% sure which way I'll install the rod ends, jury's still out on those. If I put them in horizontal (through the 1" tubing) I want to put a solid spacer inside the tubing where the rod end passes through the tubing. One of the reasons I left it a butt joint so I could get back in the tube. I already had black plastic plugs (on the shelf) that go in the ends of the tubing.
If I install the rod ends vertical they'll go on plates on the inside of the sub frame...sort of like the Velorex's upper struts do on the car frame. Bad part about that is....I'm losing ground clearance. I had to drop the tubing to clear the foot peg lug and to get a bolt through the centerstand lugs. In doing so I lost almost an 1" of ground clearance. One of the reasons I'm thinking I don't want to mount the rod ends vertical is that I'll lose more.
Look, ya gota keep in mind that I'm the fellow who bolted two cheapo coolers onto his bike the last time I went camping. I've never been much on looks... It's the cracker in me and I can't run from it. I told you right from the start, you're the artist (and a DAMN GOOD one) I'm just a cobbler.
Thanks for the help.....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray
I think you need clevis ends with long studs that go all the way thru the subframe lowers and sleeves of pipe welded inside the rails distributing the stress to both sides of the structure.
Clevis ends vertical? Perpendicular to the vertical plane of the bike or horizontal makes sense to me.
I'm thinking you don't want me to ever finish this thing!!! ....I had to jump through my arse to find the ones I have so I'll have to start looking for something that'll work like your describing.
I'll have a nut/washer and threaded end sticking out of the other side of the subframe??....will I need to be able to adjust these or can I just use the struts adjustments??? I'd hate to try deal with to many threads sticking out the other side..
Okay.....what good is it to have a mentor....and not listen to him???? Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo.........................
You might have to let me slide on the tabs though...I already shaped them....and really don't want to have to do them over.
Well, I had a good day and got a few things done around the house. Also got a chance to drag out the welder so I could tack the lower sub frame together and get it bolted back to the bike.
I had to completely re-think my upper front mount. It worked out pretty good using cardboard but didn't do so well when it came time to mock it up in metal. So here's what I finally came up with.
I'm not finished with it....I still have to fab the metal where it attaches to the gussets at the steering head. I should get a chance tomorrow to finish it up and will post a photo ( if I finish ) tomorrow night.
I've got the rod eyes (rod ends) on order and should have them by the middle of next week.....drill a hole here and there...weld the whole thing up...a little paint....and Bob's your uncle...I'll be finished with it.
I searched three ways and no goodness, could you link to your pictures of it?
Thanks, very interesting..in the SR500 world, the Euros have put sidecars on them and are very interesting the way they build them..not stock, but a very Euro version of Custom....horns, hides, stock, flash, trash and all in between.
I may have a link to some SR campout pictures...I'll look....ahhh, no way, far to many bookmarks :>
Okay...I've not run out of metal...but I have run out of places to put it....finally.
First off though....this is what my mentor calls "paper dolls"
They're fire starters now.
Here's the final version of the sub frame. All I have left ot do is weld it all up, install the rod ends, paint it and it'll be ready for the side car frame.
I'm getting excited all over again because now I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. The sub frame is something I had never heard of...so it had me puzzled and thinking I might be in over my head.
I can't wait to weigh it... I'll probably have to paint it John Deere green.
I should have the rest of the bits come in this week and hope I will have the car's frame attached to the bike by the weekend.