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new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30307
10/19/07 6:31 am
10/19/07 6:31 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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I did the search and found some very in-depth discussions of the bearings for a full width A65 type hub, but I didn't find anything about the pre-unit A10 QD hubs?

has anyone ever done that yet?

mine has a good bit of play, maybe 1/4" side to side at the tire, but only on the non drive side? the bearings on the inner side, where the splines are, are fairly tight? this is good, as the splines aren't worn much at all, but I'm afraid it's only a matter of time if I don't tighten up that other side...

do they make a modern alternative? or can I do anything about these?

Thanks again, I almost had it all back together with the new gasket for my timing cover. just a thought, never give a chemist a cheap new grease gun and a tube of grease... :rolleyes:


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
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Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30308
10/19/07 9:10 am
10/19/07 9:10 am
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 174
Brisbane, Australia
B
BSA10 Offline
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BSA10  Offline
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B
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 174
Brisbane, Australia
I used Skefco RLS7 sealed bearing in the rear QD hub on my 54 A10 S/A. According to BSA Service Sheet 703, the following are equivalents to BSA P/N 65-5883:

Hoffman or Timken LS.9, Skefco RLS7, Ransome & Marles LJ.7/8

cheers,

Graeme


Graeme
1954 A10 Golden Flash
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30309
10/19/07 2:51 pm
10/19/07 2:51 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 731
Asheville, North Carolina
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ca7a Offline
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ca7a  Offline
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Asheville, North Carolina
Nice 1638 is also good.

Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30310
10/19/07 8:04 pm
10/19/07 8:04 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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great, thank you both!! so those are period equivalent bearings, correct?

I really need to get these service sheets...


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30311
10/20/07 11:19 am
10/20/07 11:19 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 888
Annapolis, MD
Dennis B Offline
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Dennis B  Offline
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posted October 19, 2007 10:51 by ca7a

Nice 1638 is also good.


Don't you mean a 1640???????
This is a new one on me.
Or are you just posting wrong info?
Cheers
Dennis B


Member # 182
'73 750 Commando
'72 Combat Commando
'71 Triumph Blazer
'69 Victors
'68 Starfire
'51 Royal Enfield 250 'S'

Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30312
10/20/07 11:41 am
10/20/07 11:41 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,138
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Online content
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RF Whatley  Online Content
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,138
North Georgia, USA
Snowman -
Bearings have been universally standardized since the 30's, or maybe even earlier. And wheel bearings are not that demanding (as opposed to engine main bearings), other than being "tight". So if it fits, then you're good to go.

The wheel bearings for the older bikes will be "inch size" rather than the more common and modern "metric size". You can still find them, but not every bearing store will have them. So look carefully for them on the web by fractional inch size (not part number) and be sure and specify "double sealed".

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30313
10/20/07 6:21 pm
10/20/07 6:21 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
so one last question, any good suggestions for getting that flat black plate off the right side of the hub? I can't get it by hand and I don't see any indents?

I assume it's left threaded...?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30314
10/20/07 6:56 pm
10/20/07 6:56 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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aha! I can now answer my own question for posterity, on my hub the cover is simply press fit on, not threaded at all.

I clamped it with wood slats in a vice and it came off rather easily...

I wish I could find my camera cord.

thanks again!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30315
10/21/07 1:07 am
10/21/07 1:07 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,862
Elko, Nevada USA
dave - NV Offline
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Elko, Nevada USA
Don't pry off the end cover on a BSA QD pre unit rear hub. You may/will distort the tin cover. Merely drive the bearing from the LH side of the hub using a a axle as a driver and this will push the cover off the hub. I keep a B44 front axle in my box for this.

If you are trying to remove a threaded speedo drive cover from a Unit BSA hub it's different deal. What I've and others have found works good is to put a piece of flat steel strap stock in the shop vise that fits the slots in the speedo drive cover. Then position the wheel on the flat stock and turn the wheel counter clockwise to remove the *left hand* threads. Works great. Make sense?

I've found MSC to have the correct inch size sealed wheel bearings on the shelf at a reasonable price. I use their higher grade bearings vs the cheaper ones offered.
Many bearing suppliers will have issues finding the inch size bearings and some will charge silly prices.

*Do Not* pound bearings into place in the hubs 'across the balls'! This can/will 'brinel' (dent) the races causing a early bearing failure.
BTW, this also applies to All engine and tranny bearings!
On a bare hub use a press to assemble the bearings. Or on a built up spoked wheel, or if you don't have a press, use a large draw bolt with some washers to pull the bearings into the hub and simaltaneously onto the spacer.
Insure the bearings spin free after installation. They *Will Not* 'wear in'! Comprende?
Do it right with sealed bearings, do it once, and forget about em.


dave - NV
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30316
10/21/07 6:37 am
10/21/07 6:37 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
that's pretty funny, I had sent you a PM about this very thing, I'm sorry not to have just been more patient.

I will have to fabricate a good draw bolt to hit the outer races then, as my wheel is built, and I don't have a press ;-) I hadn't thought of that yet, so far it's been getting things off.

I think I did get my plate off safely, but now I know how to do it the next 20 years when I wear out the sealed bearings!

so I've gotten RSL7J as a replacement part for LS-9 from the auto stores, but they need $60 or more for it, is that about what I'd pay anywhere?

and is that a good enough bearing for that price?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30317
10/21/07 4:41 pm
10/21/07 4:41 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,875
California
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Ron - in California R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
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Posts: 1,875
California
OK, not all bearings are the same, and not all applications are the same, agreed..?

So, on the BSA wheel you have the bearing pressed into the hub and you have a spacer that is pressed into the I.D. of the bearing. So, you have a "double" interference fit... both I.D. and the O.D.

The interfernce "fit" does not just go away, it changes the bearing internal clearances. This is why you MUST fit a "C-3" bearing type, which has greater clearances to cope with the double interference fit. Failure to do this can result in well... failure of the bearing. Do not ask me how I know.... And you will likely find the C-3 bearing to cost a lot more than the plain ones...

Cheers..!

Ron beerchug

Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30318
10/21/07 7:48 pm
10/21/07 7:48 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 731
Asheville, North Carolina
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ca7a Offline
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Asheville, North Carolina
No, Dennis, 1638 is correct; I recently used one in the new drum I got. The 1640 was too much interference - it pressed in with considerable force and did not turn freely. The 1638 pressed in easily.
Cheers.

Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30319
10/22/07 4:07 am
10/22/07 4:07 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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thanks Ron, so the RLS7 sealed and the others people have mentioned using here are going to be C-3, no? in case I can actually find one that is...

ca7a, I'm sorry to be dense here, but how do I find 1638 out in the world? is that a standard part number for multiple manufacturers?

I have little experience in the world of bearings, every little bit of working on this bike is an adventure in learning and meeting new people in the area it seems. I even contacted an electric motor shop looking for them this weekend, they could turn out to be helpful afterall!

but the more spelled out part numbers I can suggest, the best chance I have of finding one at a decent going rate, eh? ;-)

thanks for all the help, hopefully I can get this soon and go out for a real ride!!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30320
10/22/07 11:50 pm
10/22/07 11:50 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 731
Asheville, North Carolina
C
ca7a Offline
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Asheville, North Carolina
Dennis, YOU are correct: 1640 is the proper number.
I read my notes incorrectly and I apologize to all who read my posting.

Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30321
10/23/07 4:22 am
10/23/07 4:22 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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well I found my 1640 RBI bearings for 6.30 each in town, today. but they are made in China. The next best were the actual Nice, which I could have found for $20 each in a few days.

so I used physics to do this, since I don't have any tools specific for it. No press, even if the wheel weren't built up. no draw press, unless I made one, and I don't have any real metal working tools, just a grinder.

since I work in a chemisty lab tho, I have ready access to as much dry ice in chunks as I can use. so I grabbed a box today for this project.

I did manage this to hold the inner race of the old one to get it off the axle spacer, with a large bolt with the head rounded off to line up and hit only the axle spacer, as my socket kept slipping off to a side.



then I used the other end of the bar stock and tapered the sides to fit down thru the whole hub and hit the outer race of the other old bearing. Iced it up with dry ice and it came right out. you can just the recessed center that shouldn't hit the inner race, even tho its the old one.


using the dry ice on the axle spacer, and the hair dryer on the bearing, I was able to slip the long end easily onto the new bearing, then I put that in the dry ice as well as the second bearing, and began heating the drive side of the hub.

then I inserted the frozen spacer first, then the frozen bearing (actually, it went bearing, curse swear, quick knock it out with new special tool, refreeze bearing AND spacer, then repeat in the proper order) that went in nicely, using the old bearing to only hit the outer race.

then, I heated the hub with it's drive side bearing and left threeaded keeper in place, still freezing the axle spacer with it's bearing already in place.

once ready, I put the spacer and its bearing into the nondrive side and tapped it in until the spacer was aligned with the drive side bearing, then drove it into place with firm but gentle taps all around the outer race, so as not to get it wedged off kilter.

it all went together well, minor blood blisters from the excitement of removing the first bearing, but otherwise pretty good.

now for the bad news. I find the same thing ca7a did with the 1640! it all came out quite tight. the bearing had some resistance to it already, but I wouldn't call it tight. when I got it all together, it is actually a bit hard to turn the axle spacer with my fingers? also, the axle itself was a tighter fit than before this...?

I went ahead and put it on the bike, figuring if it frags, I should be able to see it coming and it should only make trouble for the bearings, not the wheel, spline or hub (as long as I catch it in time)

SO, how tight should these guys be? I know Dave said that I should not expect them to "wear in", but I didn't brinel the races, at least I don't think I ever hit them. could it just be the temps?

can a tight fit around the hub to outer race and inner race to axle spacer actually compress the metal enough to cause this? or did I bend something inadvertantly?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30322
10/23/07 10:27 am
10/23/07 10:27 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 888
Annapolis, MD
Dennis B Offline
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Dennis B  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Snowbeard,
Don't Panic!!
This happens all the time.
The bearings are in pre-load.
Or pushing against one another.
Loosen the drive side bearing retainer a little.
Take the loose wheel and run the axle through from the left to right.Use the axle's inner spacer. the spacer should rest against the bearings inner race. Gently tap on the end of the axle then check with your finger to see if the bearings spin more freely.You may have to try fron the other direction or use a tube or socket to tap in the outer races until the assembly frees up.
It should be noted that this procedure does cause an impact between bearing race and balls. A "Gentle tap" is just that, not a hard whack with a BFH!!
Don't forget to re-tighten the retainer.
HTH
Cheers
Dennis B


Member # 182
'73 750 Commando
'72 Combat Commando
'71 Triumph Blazer
'69 Victors
'68 Starfire
'51 Royal Enfield 250 'S'

Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30323
10/23/07 4:19 pm
10/23/07 4:19 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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Hi Dennis, thanks for the comforting post :-)

so by bearing retainer, do you mean the lefthand threaded spanner wrenched ring holding the bearing in on the chain/brake side? with my hub there is no retainer "around" the circumference of the bearing to release, only the one pressing in from the side... is that what you mean?

I do believe I got the outer races as far into the hub as they will go, without hitting the inner race. they should be tight to the inner shoulders of the axle spacer too, at least the non drive side is, it went together outside the hub so I could see it.

so just a few light taps in each direction, I'll give it a try when I get home tonight.

thanks!!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30324
10/23/07 5:16 pm
10/23/07 5:16 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,862
Elko, Nevada USA
dave - NV Offline
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Elko, Nevada USA
Hi Snowbeard ... It sounds like you are well along with your bearing replacement project. Now don't forget the bearing in the brake drum ..
I'll yak about the project which may help someone else.

You've mentioned having an issue removing the old bearings, which as a rule isn't too much of a problem. The driver 'tool' needed is an olde pre unit front axle and as I've mentioned I use an axle made for a Victor. The thin diameter fits the axle spacer ID and the shoulder will fit against the end of the spacer, but is small enough to fit through the bearing ID when you drive the spacer out.
But of course a person could make a drift on a lathe. As you will be pitching the old bearings, there's no need to be careful with them. It's BFH work.

Here's the drill, simple but I'll yak away ... Remove the *LH* threaded bearing retainer preferably with a pin spanner, but a brass punch will work.
Now using the axle/drift fitted into the inner spacer from the spline end, drive the spacer and RH bearing out of the hub, which will also remove the tin cover without damage.
Using the drift remove the spacer from the RH bearing.
Reinsert the drift into the spacer and then into the LH bearing and drive that bearing out of the hub. Then again remove the axle spacer from the bearing.

Reassemble with new bearings:
Clean everything up nicely. Don't misplace the little ring inside the hub that sometimes comes loose. It fits inside the hub and acts as a shoulder for the outer race to fit against.
Using a fine mill file and/or a strip of emery cloth smooth the surfaces of the spacer and the inner bearing seats of the hub.

Using a large socket as a driver install the LH bearing into the hub tapping *only* on the outer race.
Refit the bearing retainer.

Carefully start the spacer into the LH bearing and start the RH bearing both into the hub and onto the spacer. Using a large draw bolt and some large washers pull the RH bearing both into the hub an onto the spacer. I use a piece of 'all thread' rod as a draw bolt.

As Ron has pointed out, you should use 'C3' grade bearings with a looser internal fit to allow for the compression of the bearing when installed.

Dennis has given good advise regards some final 'adjustments'. These hub parts weren't made all the accurately and what can happen is the inner races could bottom against the shoulders on the spacer a bit before the outer races bottom or visa versa. This could cause excessive side load on the bearings. Not good.
However I would prefer to have the retained LH bearing snug against it's shoulder and the RH bearing a bit unseated. You will always have a bit of seal drag so don't let that confuse the issue.
BTW, this is a common issue with many wheel hubs that have a axle spacer design, vintage or modern.

Another thing to consider when working on the hubs are the rivets coming loose that fasten the 3 piece hub together. The only troublesome ones I've seen are the earlier hubs with the contersunk rivet heads, but I've always tack welded the hub pieces together at either end to prevent a problem.

Don't forget to fit the spacer ring on the protruding axle spacer on the RH side of the hub when you reinstall the wheel in the bike...

It took me more time to write this than it would doing the work... but hey, it's 'BSA Stuff'.


dave - NV
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30325
10/23/07 7:00 pm
10/23/07 7:00 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,038
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Thank you Dave!! I obviously don't mind a little ramble when it contains such valuable info for a novice!

So, I pretty much ended up with your sequence by necessity, as it really doesn't happen any other way wink in place of the front axle tho, I used a heavy bolt with the head rounded to fit thru the inner race of the bearing, as I have no extra brit parts yet. that and the two crescent plates on top of the vice jaws to hold the inner race of the old bearing and it came out nicely. I was getting too much loss of power thru the balls and outer race trying to get out the axle spacer!!

I did find the inner spacer for the leftside (drive) that goes in before the bearings, but what spacer should I have on the right side? I had an old carboard or coated something rotting in there to shed dirt, it was right up against the tin cover, outside of the bearing as it were, but inside the assembly in its entirety. also a thin washer with this, but nothing that looks like a true spacer (unless you just mean the exterior spacer that keeps the splines in the hub? that I have wink )

great point about the "stationary" hub/drive/brake side, I didn't even think about that! it doesn't seem to have any play, I may not even be able to feel it if it did! I'll look into that for sure!

Thanks so much to everybody! I'm feeling like I've got nearly a complete bike again!!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30326
10/25/07 3:27 am
10/25/07 3:27 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,862
Elko, Nevada USA
dave - NV Offline
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oh oh snowbeard ... It sounds like maybe you are missing your RH hub spacer?? Ungood. I don't have one in hand at the moment, but it's width is 3/16" - 1/4", ID for a loose press fit on the extension of the hub bearing spacer that protrudes thru the RH bearing, OD that fits the hole in the tin cover over the end of the hub.
Look in your parts book for the 'picture' ...
My A10 parts book is for the later models with full width brakes.
But my GS book shows the 'spacer' as "Hub spindle distance collar", p/n 65-5890.
Make sense?

It was OEM original to have a felt sealing washer and a largish metal washer fit against the open bearings. When you install sealed bearings these pieces are no longer needed.

The 'spool' looking spacer that fits on the axle between the swing arm and the hub, bears against this hub spacer/collar. So when you tighten up the 'long' rear axle the end play in the hub pieces are pressed against and controlled by the LH hub ball bearing that's secured with the screwed in retainer. Savy?


dave - NV
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30327
10/25/07 5:55 am
10/25/07 5:55 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
snowbeard Offline OP
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snowbeard  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,038
US citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
aha! that makes sense. the axle spacer in the center of the two bearings does go quite a distance thru the non drive side bearing! just about a 1/4 inch!! maybe that is why that was the side that was worn out badly!!

so it makes the bearing be in too close to the center of the hub, adding excess torque on it. right?

well, I'll see what I can do finding one, but for now I'll just keep a good eye on it. the bearings did unload with the light tapping, they're still snug for sure, but now not much more than they were new in hand.

thanks!!!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Re: new sealed bearings in a QD hub? #30328
10/25/07 4:08 pm
10/25/07 4:08 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,862
Elko, Nevada USA
dave - NV Offline
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snowbeard .. I sure wouldn't ride the bike without the RH spacer collar. Other then the press fit in the hub, the collar/spacer is what positions the RH bearing in in the hub.


dave - NV

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