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Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Tridentman] #302254
03/10/10 12:11 am
03/10/10 12:11 am
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 186
Berkeley, Ca. USA
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ACWilkins Offline
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Berkeley, Ca. USA
Tridentman... Not to suggest a standard for documentation, but...
I found edh's postings on the Triumph Board to be really helpful. It isn't often that someone does such a thorough job of showing us how it all came together, especially for a T100. I will try that out on my '69 Daytona as I make progress.
Enoy the work, Alan T100R

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Re: 500 Triumph [Re: ACWilkins] #302283
03/10/10 4:26 am
03/10/10 4:26 am
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 50
Auckland New Zealand
P
papa delta Offline
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Auckland New Zealand
hi Tridentman, nice bike, i have one the same. This might seem like a strange question, but where does the key go on your bike? Mine has been changed to on the left headlight ear, but I would like to put it back to original in the future. I look forward to seeing you restore it in the future. Cheers, phil

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: papa delta] #302335
03/10/10 3:41 pm
03/10/10 3:41 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,342
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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Hi Phil/ Papa Delta----just been to look for where the key goes.
The quick answer is---I dont know.
However this is what I found:
a) There is a lock on the nearside of the top fork yoke---but this is obviously the steering lock.
b) There is no ignition lock on the nearside panel (opposite the oil tank) nor any hole for an ignition switch.This is the position used for the 1965 model but it certainly aint there on the 1967 model!
c) I am not sure if the headlight fitted is original but I think it may be. On top of the headlight are (from left to right as you sit on the bike)
--- Switch---sort of elliptical black plastic switch as used on my 1972 Trident to switch from pilot light to headlight. I guess it may be used for the same purpose on the 1967 T100SC.
--- Warning light --this is in the center. Not sure what color it is as everything is pretty shitty!. I guess it is for headlight main beam.
--- a hole!---which looks as if it may have contained some sort of switch.
So my best guess is that the ignition switch is on the right hand side of the headlamp but please dont take this as gospel.
HTH

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Tridentman] #302398
03/10/10 8:46 pm
03/10/10 8:46 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
SBoyd Offline
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There's no ignition switch on an ET Triumph. Just a kill button (which BTW has to be a special type).
Will gladly explain the special ET kill button if asked.

>>steve


Stop the insanity.
Re: 500 Triumph [Re: SBoyd] #302402
03/10/10 9:07 pm
03/10/10 9:07 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,777
Central Virginia
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Originally Posted By: SBoyd
There's no ignition switch on an ET Triumph. Just a kill button (which BTW has to be a special type).
Will gladly explain the special ET kill button if asked.

>>steve


confused


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: 500 Triumph [Re: SBoyd] #302403
03/10/10 9:09 pm
03/10/10 9:09 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,342
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Hi Steve, do you know where I can find out which models/years had ET fitted?
Would appreciate you describing the ET kill button if you would.
Many thanks in advance---and I guess Phil Papa Delta will thank you too!
BTW---whereabouts in NY are you?
Richard

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Tridentman] #302425
03/10/10 11:33 pm
03/10/10 11:33 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
SBoyd Offline
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Hi Tridentman

I am near Albany NY, very close to where you bought the bike and I still go woods riding with Jim Hollerich (the museum guy) every year on vintage Spanish bikes. He goes well for being over 70 and I'm getting close. I've always ridden Bultacos but more recently fixed up an Ossa for the woods. Guess you've seen enough Ossa's to choke a donkey over at Jim's.

I stayed out of this deal as the bike is too far gone for my current priorities at any price. That thread kind-of went bad too, but read it anyway.(I must get a life)
I think you both got a fair price.

I believe that 1967 was the last year for ET. It's possible that they ended in 66, but I think 67.
You'll know, unless yours was converted which is common.
If original ET, you will have open-frame ign coils and no battery box.
There is a man on this forum who recently restored a 65 T100C.
He got a lot of help right here on the restoration of his ET from myself and others. When I think of his name, you can look at all his posts and you will get lots of info about your bike, the only difference is 1965 has two into one exhaust.

As for the kill button IF you have ET, it is simply a SPST normally open switch that connects the two points together when pushed. There is no ground on the switch. Nearly correct ones are available in repo.
The headlamp switch and dipper switch are located in the headlamp shell in those two holes. Not designed for night riding. smile

>>steve

OOPS......this still is that for sale thread

Last edited by SBoyd; 03/10/10 11:51 pm.

Stop the insanity.
Re: 500 Triumph [Re: SBoyd] #302430
03/11/10 12:03 am
03/11/10 12:03 am
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 50
Auckland New Zealand
P
papa delta Offline
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Auckland New Zealand
Hi Tridentman / Steve. Thanks for the replies. Does this mean that originally you just got on the bike and kicked it, and just used the kill switch to turn it off. I will try to find the topic about the '65. Can ET be reliable enough to use everyday?
Cheers, Phil

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: papa delta] #302437
03/11/10 12:24 am
03/11/10 12:24 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
SBoyd Offline
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papa
that is correct as I recall, just kick it.
his name is Steve Peterson.
You can do an advanced search on his name, go back to his first post and you have bit of a manual on those bikes.

as for reliability for daily, I think it's fine and back then I rode to work every day on my 1966 TR6-C. The lighting, though is never good enough for night riding by today's standards and traffic. It was designed to make the bike "enduro-legal" and I rode home in the dark but I was younger and dumber by quite a bit.

>>steve


Stop the insanity.
Re: 500 Triumph [Re: SBoyd] #302460
03/11/10 4:04 am
03/11/10 4:04 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,342
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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Phil/Steve,
a) I have searched the past postings. "Steve Peterson" seems to bring up anything with Steve in it. Put in "Peterson" and you get the thread OK (first posting 10/14/09). Interesting and very useful.
b) Had another look at my T100SC. Certainly no battery box. Dont know about the condensers yet. On the left handlebar just adjacent tio the grip is a button that looks like a kill button (a bit like the old horn buttons). Only seems to be one wire going into it so maybe it just earthed the alternator output?--- (have to study the ET wiring diagrams to suss it out).
c) So that means the headlamp switches are (L toR):
-- No headlight/headlights on
-- Main beam light
-- Dip/Main beam switch
again I need to study the manual before confirming this.
I will try to take a photo of the kill button tomorrow and post it.
HTH

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Tridentman] #302468
03/11/10 5:29 am
03/11/10 5:29 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,379
Back on the mainland!
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Originally Posted By: Tridentman
I will try to take a photo of the kill button tomorrow and post it.


Triguy-

You're doing an awful lot of work lately for a bike that's third in line! laughing

Glad you scored it, thanks for saving another one......it's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it!! grin

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Tridentman] #302478
03/11/10 8:58 am
03/11/10 8:58 am
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 114
Oregon
Steve Peterson Offline
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Oregon
Originally Posted By: Tridentman
Phil/Steve,
a) I have searched the past postings. "Steve Peterson" seems to bring up anything with Steve in it. Put in "Peterson" and you get the thread OK (first posting 10/14/09). Interesting and very useful.
b) Had another look at my T100SC. Certainly no battery box. Dont know about the condensers yet. On the left handlebar just adjacent tio the grip is a button that looks like a kill button (a bit like the old horn buttons). Only seems to be one wire going into it so maybe it just earthed the alternator output?--- (have to study the ET wiring diagrams to suss it out).
c) So that means the headlamp switches are (L toR):
-- No headlight/headlights on
-- Main beam light
-- Dip/Main beam switch
again I need to study the manual before confirming this.
I will try to take a photo of the kill button tomorrow and post it.
HTH



HTH, Most of the questions I posted had the term "ET Ignition" in them. You should have no problem finding them. I had just about every kind of question possible so it should be good reading for you.
Steve and the others were invaluable to me. I was told by several other people to abandon the ET system and you may be tempted, but hang in there. It is the heart of the SC and the other C/Tt bikes.
My tank should be back in the next week and I will have some pictures.

Steve Boyd, I didn't know you were in to Ossas. A friend of mine has a T120 Ossa. He hasn't had it running for several years after ventilating the pistons.

Last edited by Steve Peterson; 03/11/10 6:30 pm.


66 T100C
73 TR7V
Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Steve Peterson] #302483
03/11/10 11:00 am
03/11/10 11:00 am
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 230
Marblehead,Ma USA
W
Woody1911a1 Offline
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Marblehead,Ma USA
just click on steve's name to the left of his post will bring up a pull down list . then just click view posts .

the kill switch should have 2 leads which connect the left and right points leads together to kill .

get your manuals here http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Triumph.htm

cheers Woody

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Woody1911a1] #302512
03/11/10 4:15 pm
03/11/10 4:15 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,342
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Thanks for info guys---much appreciated.

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Tridentman] #302517
03/11/10 4:40 pm
03/11/10 4:40 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,342
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Ref my posting of yesterday I have taken photos of the bike as is.
This is what I think is the kill button (2 photos)





Is this the ET kill button?

And here is the headlamp:



I think as I posted earlier that (from left to right) we have:
--- Headlight on/off switch
--- Main beam warning light
--- Dipswitch (where the hole is)
Can anyone confirm this?

Many thanks in advance for your help.

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Tridentman] #302525
03/11/10 5:34 pm
03/11/10 5:34 pm
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 50
Auckland New Zealand
P
papa delta Offline
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Auckland New Zealand
Hi Tridentman. Interesting pics. Mine has all been changed to I think later model headlights, handlebars, swichgear etc but I'm keen to go back to original in the future, so watching this topic with great interest. Also good to see the paint layout on the tank.
Cheers, Phil

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: papa delta] #302552
03/11/10 8:14 pm
03/11/10 8:14 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,342
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Just thinking aloud now-------
The ET system works by timing the alternator output so that it is at its maximum output just when the ignition system needs the output---so obviating the need for a battery.
Now if one were to replace the points ignition system with an EI system e.g. Boyer, Pazon etc would it still work?
In principle I guess yes---but it all depends on the timing of voltage required by the EI system.
Anyone ever tried it?---or have a theoretical reason (s) why it would or wouldnt work?
As I say---just thinking aloud---or thinking in writing I guess to be more accurate.
Please indulge an old bugger his musings!

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Tridentman] #302561
03/11/10 8:57 pm
03/11/10 8:57 pm
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Posts: 230
Marblehead,Ma USA
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Woody1911a1 Offline
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you'll need dc not ac for the ei tridentman so no go .

cheers Woody

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Woody1911a1] #302563
03/11/10 9:07 pm
03/11/10 9:07 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,522
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
JBMorris Offline
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<<The E.T. system is bassically a "magneto" it used 4 windings in the alternator to charge the battery/run lights and 2 of the windings on the alt. to power the coils.The ET system uses a 5* advance unit instead of the usual 12* advance unit due to the limited time to "charge" the coils with only 2 alt. windings to supply power to the ignition coils. The timing has to be pretty much dead on. I remeber reading that the sytem has a draw back, as the whole sysem is wired "together". ie, tail light bulb burns out the bike dies.>>
from "The Jockey Journal"

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: JBMorris] #302571
03/11/10 9:36 pm
03/11/10 9:36 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,379
Back on the mainland!
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Originally Posted By: Brien Morrissey
as the whole sysem is wired "together". ie, tail light bulb burns out the bike dies.>>


Hmmm....sounds like my Xmas tree lights....one bulb goes and the whole string is dead! laugh

If the bike is going to be completely rebuilt, it could be converted to DC for reliable street use, but could get expensive: different AAU, coils, battery box, stator(?) rectifier/zener or regulator, 12V bulbs, perhaps different wiring harness, switches...and don't forget the EI! I can hear the cha-ching of the cash register already...

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: 500 Triumph [Re: JBMorris] #302577
03/11/10 9:52 pm
03/11/10 9:52 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 114
Oregon
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Brien, I don't want to come off as an expert but.... I just went through most of the drills associated with ET. The systems in the old Triumph don't have a battery, everything is AC.
There was a problem with the early non encapsulated staters, because the brake light was connected to the coil windings. So if you had a problem with the brake light circut, the ignition could suffer, but I don't think a burnt (open) bulb would cause a problem. A short or the application of the brake light at idle when the timing is a little off or dirty points could cause a miss or flame out.
The later staters (47197) dedicated two sets of windings to the ignition.
It could be that most of the systems out there were of the early design, because they were discontinued as you know.

Just my .02



66 T100C
73 TR7V
Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Steve Peterson] #302584
03/11/10 10:04 pm
03/11/10 10:04 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,342
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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So, we connect the alternator output into a solid state rectifier/regulator and connect that into the EI system.
Will it work?

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: Tridentman] #302589
03/11/10 10:40 pm
03/11/10 10:40 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Offline

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Boston, Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Brien
I remeber reading that the sytem has a draw back, as the whole sysem is wired "together". ie, tail light bulb burns out the bike dies.>>

Early 5 lead stator 47188:
Well, No! The tail lamp (and head light) is on its own pair of independent coils in the stator.

In the early E.T. Stator the brake light, which is normally off and has no effect on the quality of the spark from the ignition, is connected in between two pairs coils that power the ignition. If for any reason the brake light remains ON after the brake lever is released your spark can suffer.
Later 5 wire stator 47197:
The brake light switch is wired in the same stator windings used to power the tail lamp and head lamp. The windings used to power the ignition coils are independent. Thus, any abnormalities in the light circuit or lighting stator windings have no effect upon the ignition.
John
edit to save Stuart from having to correct me! blush

Last edited by John Healy; 03/12/10 12:01 am.

Re: 500 Triumph [Re: John Healy] #302607
03/12/10 12:49 am
03/12/10 12:49 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
SBoyd Offline
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Virginia, USA
""So, we connect the alternator output into a solid state rectifier/regulator and connect that into the EI system.
Will it work?"" Tridentman

Yes, but it would be best to replace the stator with a fresh two-wire stator or a fresh three-phase stator.
Then you can wire the bike like a street Triumph and have good lighting, cigarette lighter, turn indicators, etc.
If you want street bike electrics, that's what you have to do and you won't necessarily be sorry. It's a decision you have to make.
You can leave the original rotor in place if you like, but that's all.
Good news is that to change to DC ELECTRONIC, you won't need to get a new AAU or rectifier and zener diode.
You'll simply wire your new stator to the the reg/rect of your choice.
The five-wire stator can be wired to the reg/rect. through some trickery as I recall, but it never makes the same power. I recommend strongly against that. You probably have the original open-frame five wire stator and should get rid of it if going to DC.
You can save all the ET parts and not feel guilty.

You will have lost the visceral appeal of ET but gained civility.
Since I have plenty of battery bikes, I'd keep the ET, but I CAN tell you that it might be more trouble for most people to get the ET perfectly right than to convert to DC.


""edit to save Stuart from having to correct me!"" JH
I don't think Stuart ever posts about ET systems

Yes, Tridentman, that is the original ET kill button.
If the wiring hasn't been changed, you'll find that it has one B/W wire and one B/Y wire corresponding to the point and coil that it connects to.

>>sb




Last edited by SBoyd; 03/12/10 4:57 am.

Stop the insanity.
Re: 500 Triumph [Re: SBoyd] #302611
03/12/10 1:05 am
03/12/10 1:05 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,379
Back on the mainland!
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Originally Posted By: SBoyd

I don't think Stuart ever posts about ET systems


Stuart is a true renaissance man when it comes to brit bikes.....I wouldn't be surprised if he did! laugh

Originally Posted By: SBoyd

Good news is that to change to DC electronic, you won't need to get a new AAU...


Mind you I'm still a-learnin' here, but I seemed to recall reading somewhere that the ET AAU at 5 degrees would be replaced....gonna have to go back and re-read that bit....

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
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