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#29852 - 10/05/07 7:22 pm A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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snowbeard Offline
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finally found a battery, got it filled and charged, and I'm ready to install it, but I didn't pay attention to how the old battery was connected... :rolleyes:

There is an in line fuse on one connector, would that most likely be connected to the positive or negative terminal? (as marked on the battery)

thanks in advance!!!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
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#29853 - 10/05/07 9:07 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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snowbeard Offline
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sorry, should have mentioned this is a spitfire scrambler, so the electrical system is all aftermarket, but I would think they would still put the fuse on the same "side"?

thanks
'beard


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29854 - 10/05/07 9:13 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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Seattle
It doesn't really matter. They originally didn't have a fuse, anyway and the electrons don't seem to care.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#29855 - 10/05/07 9:26 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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hh Offline
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It'll matter if he hooks the battery up backwards, which is what I think he's asking about.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
#29856 - 10/05/07 9:28 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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Flint,Mich
Start tracing back there will be one of the wires on the bike that connects with the frame red wire is a clue that would be for the positive battery terminal.


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
#29857 - 10/05/07 9:54 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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Alex Offline
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Seattle
Quote:
Originally posted by hh:
It'll matter if he hooks the battery up backwards, which is what I think he's asking about.
Gotcha, I read this as a question about where to install a fuse. I'm guessing now it's about which way around should the battery be hooked up...

Yea, if it's a custom electrical system, it could be anything. The two components that would care would be the regulator/rectifier and the ignition. So I guess we gotta start with: "what kind of regulator/rectifier and what kind of ignition do you have?"


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#29858 - 10/05/07 10:07 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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thanks! so it's a 57, should've included that as well, I wrote this once last night and then my connection crapped out, so I got impatient...

the wiring seems to be a factory loom, there is one side that is all brown wires, and that is the side with the fuse. the other side has a red wire, but a yellow one grafted onto it, and I haven't found the other end of the red, or if it is spliced as well.

since the wiring diagrams have brown all over as hooked up to the negative, and the positive to ground with one wire (?), can I maybe assume the brown is the negative side?

I haven't reconnected the generator yet, since I just got the battery...


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29859 - 10/06/07 4:13 am Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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Contry to popular belief the fuse is there to protect the battery & not the wiring.

In 57 it should have been + earth

Easiest way to tell is to hook up the battery and then turn on the headlamp. If the ammeter shows a charge ( + ) reading then it is backwards, if it shows a discharge ( - ) then it is hooked up correctly.
As long as there is only 1 power source in the circuit it will not matter, so do this before you start the engine.

Dynamo generators do not care which way the battery is connected and they will happily run + or - earth.

If you really want to protect your electrical system then there should be a fuse on the wire that runs from the "A" terminal on the regulator to the ammeter ( or light switch or battery depending on the actual wiring ).
In theory a dead short will cause the regulator to shut down the generator.
In practice this happens after every wire has melted & just as the bike is about to burst into flames.
Red is used for wires that are + all the time while brown is used for wires that go + after a switch such as ignition or lights.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#29860 - 10/06/07 4:15 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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thanks. that makes a little more sense, but since this is a scrambler with an aftermarket electrical system, even tho it conforms to stock (I bet they had it done at the dealer) there is no ammeter

so if I just test it with a multimeter on DC Amps, where would I put each clip?

also, the fuse is on the side that has all the brown wiring, so I assume that would be between the regulator and the battery, is it doing any good there?

thans a bunch, I know it's hard to second guess an old machine like this online, I'll try to get a pic later today!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29861 - 10/06/07 10:50 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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Flint,Mich
If the wiring harness works, you could just do a continuity test on each battery lead one wire on the tester should go to a good ground(engine) the other should go to each battery wire. The tester will so high continuity to the engine when it is hooked to the wire that goes to the positive battery terminal.


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
#29862 - 10/07/07 12:15 am Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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perfect, thank you!! I'll hook the generator back up tonite and try that!!

thanks so much, with all your help I've gotten this running in a week, riding in two, and when I get this battery hooked up and the light sorted I'm ready for title!!

here it is today after a quick little ride



thanks to you all!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29863 - 10/07/07 9:33 am Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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Your A 10 will run with or without a battery, it dose not care as the ignition comes from the magneto.
Inside the tool box is the regulator.
It is held in placde by 2 nuts & bolts.
Somewhere on the side of the regulator you should be able to see the letters stamped F , A, D, E ( not necessarily in that order.
There are 4 wires coming out of the regulator from thees terminal.
One goes directly to earth, usually to one of the mounting bolts, it is usually black & should be connected to the E terminal.
Two go to the generator they are usually yellow & green & are connecter to the F & D terminals.
The last one which will vary in colour depending upon the actual loom will go to the battery or the ammeter or the light switch. It should be connected to the "A" terminal on the regulator.
Connect this wire to the - of your meter and the other clip to a clean spot on the frame.
Isolate both of the battery terminals & start the bike, if you get a normal reading then the bike is + earth if you get a backwards reading then the bike is - earth.
If the generator has not been used for a long while then it may take a good 5 to 10 minutes for you to get a reading.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#29864 - 10/07/07 7:05 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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great, thanks again! so when you say isolate, do you just mean disconnect the battery terminals? just checking, I want to be sure to get it right.

I have been riding the bike a little bit now, with no battery, the magneto was the first thing I fixed up to see if it was worth going further. with spark I went right to the carb and oil change and had er fired up post haste.

thanks for indulging such density when it comes to my electrics. :rolleyes:

edit: so my multimeter shows no resistance from either battery connection to the engine... it's got a buzz from either connector? does that mean there's a short somewhere?

second edit:so with the reg. grounded, the generator hooked up, and no battery I get right about 1.0 Ohms from either battery connection to the engine.

there is every possibility the generator is bad, I've got no reason to expect it to work... would a shorted generator winding act this way perhaps?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29865 - 10/07/07 11:39 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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so I decided that brown has got to be the "negative" connection sot hooked up the betony and the generator. Started it all up and got a reading on the batterybefore starting of 6.2 v (I've been "testing" the lights a but so I wasn't concerned new battery. it held 6.3 v when fresh and I haven't done anything to charge it)

with the engine running I got 6.15V or So, but when I revved it I got a bouncing reading from 12 v to AV with maybe a 20V to boot

so is this too high? Sound "normal"?

I feel like I'm very close!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29866 - 10/08/07 12:12 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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way too high.
Two possabilities.
1) the regulator is way out of adjustment.
2) the DPO did a 6 to 12 V conversion.

Trying to pump 20 V into a 6 V battery is a sure way of cleaning the side of the bike with sulphuric acid.

The generator unlike an altinator will give rising voltage.
So at idle it will be producing 4V so the regulator keeps it open circuit.
As the revs rise so dose the voltage, by about 1000 rpm it will be up to 5.5V at which time the regulator should close the circuit and send electricity to bike.
The output voltage continuse to rise till at around 6000 rpm it is putting out 8 V at which point the regulator will again go open circuit.
At approx 35 mph with headlamp on the output from the generator should match the load and above that speed you start to charge the battery.

If the regulator opens too early then the heavy amperage wii melt the internal connections and it is rebuild time.
On my M20 the difference between working correctly & not working at all was 1/4 turn on the regulator points.

Sound like you need to get the regulator checked out.
Most of the bods are using the solid state units because the 2 coil jobs are a real pia to keep adjusted properly as you really have to remove them & the generator from the bike in order to adjust them


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#29867 - 10/08/07 4:37 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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hmm. I was afraid of that. I gotten some advice to try cleaning the points with some wet dry sandpaper. I know I can do it gently, so I guess I'll try that.

the battery that was dried up but in the bike when I got it was a 6V. I think things were in pretty decent order before the carb fire, so it may just be dirty. nice that you can at least try to "adjust" it if need be.

what sort of solid state regulators go well on our machines? I'll go do a search too, but just in case I may as well ask.

Thanks yet again, Trevor!!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29868 - 10/08/07 4:46 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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Seattle
Snowbeard,

Carb fire??? Has the wiring harness been replaced since? Was it repaired?

Podtronics makes a good regulator. You want to be sure your harness is up to snuff before you install it, though. I managed to burn a hole straight through an electronic regulator on my A10 when the harness rubbed through and shorted out.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#29869 - 10/08/07 6:58 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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yes, the harness was repaired, it was melted together just there under the tank above the carb. I didn't trust it, so I shaved the burned insulation off until I could separate the wires cleanly, then used electrical tape to insulate each one back again, sticky to sticky the long ways, then wrapped around each one, then wrapped around all of them. I trust it for those five inches at least, but it seems to be doing well, aside from the regulator not regulating. I get lights, brake light lights when depressed, as well as being a running light, it charges, a bit much it seems, but otherwise I think the wiring is "safe" for now...

I know not to trust it forever, but for now it's good enough for me to get hooked on the bike wink


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29870 - 10/09/07 2:50 am Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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nowhere
How Ironic I set my First 57spitfire on fire while tuning .It had set up for years and didnt have a drip sheild toasty toasty bigt i am now working on the 2nd having sold the first at J Wood last spring But that is a nice looking spit for shure-Wade

#29871 - 10/09/07 3:37 am Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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why thank you wade, I made a drip tray first off when I got it to run. it's not a pretty example of welding, but it will divert a stream of gas...

so I have the regulator off, and I am hesitant to pry the tabs open, perhaps its just a connection... should I just gently pry it open? can I clean it thru the two little rubber seals?

the wires were hooked up
F=green generator
A=brown white stripe hooked to neg of battery
E=Red ground or positive terminal
D=yellow generator

I found this document with a slightly different configuration, http://www.audioworld.net/BSA/manual54/controlboxmcr.pdf

by their paper, my E and D might be swapped. can any of your tell one way or another? what would that do besides not work, would it hurt anything?




=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29872 - 10/09/07 7:59 am Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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Interesting little regulator you have there.
Behind the two rubber plugs you will find the adjustment screws which will not be much use to you at the moment.
Nice rubber mounts though.
Bad news is tht the cover has to come off to access the points and by the looks of it the rubber mounting bolts as well.
Once you have it off give the contact points a good squirt with some contact cleaner ( that is contact cleaner, not WD40).
connect it back up to the bike ( you might need to make up some jumper leads and with the engine running press down on the arms to manually close the points a few times.
Sometimes doing this is enough to get the smoke circulating properly through the wires.
As you rev the bike, and load & unload the circuit ( turning the lights on & off) you should see the coils working.
Might be a good idea to do this with another set of hands handy.
Once the coils are working the points then & only then can you consider adjusting the points.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
#29873 - 10/09/07 2:02 pm Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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so that's not a standard regulator then? maybe a newer reworked one?

I noticed many of the pics had solid bent metal mounting ears just from the body, hence the allusion to rubber mounts being unusual? it is still the RB108 that Daniel Boss's page describes, just slightly different!

thanks, I put it back on so the battery could run the lights for the DMV today, I'll see what happens with having cleaned the main connections, then pull it if it still isn't regulating...

thanks a ton!!


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29874 - 10/20/07 1:54 am Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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wow, I've been around the bike and back, since I finally got her all buttoned up with my new gaskets, and a new chain (boy THAT made an improvement!) I got to test the regulator again.

I had barely run it at all when I posted before, so having dissconnected the regulator at least, I thought I'd try it again. also with the dynamo chain tensioned correctly and new grease in the housing.

when I test the battery terminals now, I get about 5.98V at idle, and it goes up to 6.3-6.8v thru what I would imagine is 1/4 throttle, then holds a pretty steady 7.5-8V up to as high as I care to rev the old gal (which without a tack is likely not quite "all the way") should the voltage drop altogether when the coils on that side open? or does it just regulate it to 8V or less?


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
#29875 - 10/20/07 2:32 am Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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RF Whatley Online content
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North Georgia, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by snowbeard:
so I have the regulator off, and I am hesitant to pry the tabs open, perhaps its just a connection... should I just gently pry it open? can I clean it thru the two little rubber seals?

the wires were hooked up
F=green generator
A=brown white stripe hooked to neg of battery
E=Red ground or positive terminal
D=yellow generator

That looks like the regulator that was on my '59 A7. You can adjust it through the rubber plug holes. I would trust WD-40 through the plug holes as a first try to clean the points. The "points" do not burn up like ignition points, they simply get corroded. To file the points you'll have to bend back the tabs and lift the top off.

Allow me point out some errors in your color coding...
F = F terminal on the generator "field"
A = Negative battery terminal
D = D terminal on the generator "armature"
E = "Earth" or "ground" for all the following: batty positive, frame, AND generator body (or cylinder head)

Whereas you list colors, electrons could care less about the color of the insulation. Therefore the termination point is more highly preferred.

The second sentence of the Lucas repair manual I have says to always check the "ground" wires first. Faulty grounds being the largest issue by far. 3 connections are preferred.

The letter markings you seek can sometimes be found on the steel plate used to hold the 4 wires into the regulator body. The screw shown then holds this plate in place.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#29876 - 10/20/07 6:25 am Re: A10 battery connections? fuse to positive?  
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eek but I just got a fresh jug of brown electrons at NAPA?!?! the guy told me they were only germinated this fall. confused

thanks for the help with the generator connections, I haven't been deep enough into it to know which plug was for what.

and you're right, I should double check my grounds, I get continuity thru the wiring harness, but should I be shooting for 0.0 Ohms as well?

one question I've had with the contact cleaner, could I risk penetrating the laquer insulating the coils with today's new chemicals?

how sensitive are the adjustment screws? I wonder if I carefully noted where they are set now, if I turned them just the slightest bit back and forth to rub them clean? this is a first thought and could be a very bad idea, I won't be offended if you tell me so ;-)


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
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