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#288740 - 12/13/09 12:20 pm Gardner carbs?  
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Bodger Offline
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Santa Barbara, Cal.
Anybody have a source for Gardner carbs?

I had one on a Manx I was able to own when they were cheap...it worked very well.

Last edited by Bodger; 12/13/09 12:21 pm.
#288747 - 12/13/09 1:12 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Bodger]  
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Alex Offline
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Seattle
I would guess the Gardner Carburettor company in west sussex would be a start. He advertises in Classic Racer: (44) 01444 233485. I guess you have probably guessed that they are not cheap any more...


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#288844 - 12/13/09 11:11 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Alex]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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Nice guy... I talked to him 2 years ago.. he offered tuning advice as well. Price in 2007 was small carbs 350 larger carbs are 450. Floats are extra....

Cheers..!!

Ron

#288922 - 12/14/09 1:14 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.]  
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Bodger Offline
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Santa Barbara, Cal.
Thanks, now I see the ad. Gardner isn't online that I can find, but did see a reference that they were not allowed in AHMRA in 2003, no idea if allowed now, they were certainly period 60's..one was on the 65 AFM 500 class winner, Pridmore's Manx.

#289061 - 12/15/09 5:46 am Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Bodger]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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They are now AHRMA legal (I think thanks to me.. ahem..) that was a change last year... when I pointed out that one of the fastest bikes had one.. and I was amazed the announcer at Daytona let everyone know...

Ron

#289094 - 12/15/09 2:15 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.]  
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phantom309 Offline
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spfld vt
I believe they have been legal for several years.Mooney ran one for years but has gone to a mukuni.What I don't think is legal is a smooth bore AMAL.Everything is legal till you get potested.:)


Tim Joyce
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#289102 - 12/15/09 3:27 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: phantom309]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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California
Yes Tim... I was trying to be polite and not mention names (got scholded for my big mouth a few times lately..).. But remember his engine was having a big appetitie for pistons at both Roebling then Daytona... the announcer at Daytona said he was having issues with his Gardner carb... So, after that, I sent a private message to an AHRMA board member, and all of a sudden there was a rule change... go figure..!!

You are correct, the AMAL Mk2 Smoothie is not AHRMA legal (the non-smoothbore Mk2 is legal), but is legal on the IOM. That was the rule proposal I made for this year... and it never appeared nor got voted on... Several guys are running them, not just me... I will set up my bike for the non-smoothie this year, just in case.. hate to be protested, now that the world knows I ran one the last few years... (can't hardly tell the difference externally).

I had not realized that Pat went to a Mikuni.. The Gardner (once set up correctly) is supposed to make tons of power.. I just like the simplicity of an integral float chamber. Otherwise I would run an AMAL G.P., which of course is a legal smoothbore.

My engine parts showed up yesterday... engine building time..!!

Cheers..!!

Ron

Last edited by Ron - in California; 12/15/09 3:54 pm.
#289171 - 12/16/09 12:52 am Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.]  
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phantom309 Offline
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spfld vt
Hey Ron, Makes no diff to me what you run. I do know for a fact that his bike ran better with the mikuni but was not told of all the changes when it was changed so was it the carb or something else.I have a AMAL gp that looks like it has been on a racer from day one.:) it looks wore out but sure does work well.Someone else with a bsa has one too. Just keep a cover on it till race time.:)


Tim Joyce
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#289194 - 12/16/09 3:49 am Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: phantom309]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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HI Tim..!

There is no doubt the AMAL GP will make more power than a round slide Mikuni, even if the Mikuni is the next larger size. I spent a bunch of time on the flow bench, and the GP outflows them all..!! Now, the differences are fairly small between the Mk2 Smoothie and the GP, but more significant between all the others I had tested.. I think your assessment is spot on... something else is responsible for the power increase.. if there really is one..

I like the GP, just that remote float is such a pain to deal with.. however I may just go that way again...

Cheers..!!

Ron

#289221 - 12/16/09 1:13 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.]  
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Bodger Offline
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Santa Barbara, Cal.
Engine parts? Tell all! Pictures would be really interesting, but then you said
Quote:
now that the world knows I ran one the last few years..
.

Tricky race parts/ competition spying/ protests...where is the love of motorcycles and advancing knowledge, oh woe...:>

Good luck, and thanks for the remarks about GP's being so good. Good to know, as I still have it. The Gardner was borrowed and going to be 'returned'...yeah right. Did you flow the Gardner?
and why did you make the choice for the AMAL Mk 2 instead?

ahh...seeekrits. Never mind, hh.

#289243 - 12/16/09 3:33 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Bodger]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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I am using the Mk2 for several reasons... first it is a "proper" AMAL and not something foreign...second it is a very simple carb to tune, uses the same jets that I already own... third is the integral float, which is a lot simpler and more reliable than a remote float.. None of the above reasons are performance related.. just easy and (sort of) looks the part.. My one tuner wanted me to run a Del Orto, and that is just not right... HEH.. :-)

I knew the AMAL GP was the flow king, just have to look at it to know that...but the flow bench confirmed it.. The Mk2 Smoothie is fairly close in flow, less, but close... while the Mk2 non-smoothie is gonna cost some top end power for sure.. oh well... Now as for the Gardner, no I did not test it, as I do not have one... but I am sure it is the same or better than the GP... and you can get a Gardner in any size you want, up to a full 2 inches..!!

Nothing secret about it... I suspect most good tuners have done the same tests...

Cheers..!!

Ron


Originally Posted By: Bodger
Engine parts? Tell all! Pictures would be really interesting, but then you said
Quote:
now that the world knows I ran one the last few years..
.

Tricky race parts/ competition spying/ protests...where is the love of motorcycles and advancing knowledge, oh woe...:>
and why did you make the choice for the AMAL Mk 2 instead?
ahh...seeekrits. Never mind, hh.

#290192 - 12/21/09 2:34 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: ]  
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Bodger Offline
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Santa Barbara, Cal.
No photos, and I don't currently know the whereabouts.
I installed the engine ,trans, and front wheel in my 53 Gold Star (no passenger loops) frame, with the engine 1.5" further forwards and lower than either a late 62 Manx I also bought ($700, mint..1968)or the Gold Star engine location.
I had a nice foam gas tank mold ready, but never finished it, instead we made a very rough clear figlas tank just to get it running..and as arty joke against the others of our friends who were appalled by it...the types that can never do anything unless it's all perfect. I just wanted to see if my approach was better than the Manx and GS weight distribution, and didn't really care about the finish (hence my user name).
It handled better than the stock one, but before I could ride either extensively my life was thoroughly disrupted. I never got to race it, we used to break in to an abandoned Air Force base, area 52?, in the desert, and a gang of us and our future collector items would rip around there all day. G45, 350 Honda Hawk/Yetman frame (kicked all our butts), Matchless G80, Manxs...

Key to remember at that 'track' was that the end of the straightaway was a 30' high timber wall. Not optimal.

I sold the engine , gearbox and wheel to a 'collector'/'restorer' in the 80's, thank you Mr Reagan.

Reggie put a Kwacker 500 triple in the Featherbed Manx frame and it was pretty fast but delicate, and I don't think he did as well with it in 1966..it was the attack of the strokers, and his Manx was the last 4 stroke to win the class.

I lost track of Reggie until he became a Superbike Superstar and the rest is well known, he has/had? a BMW dealership in Ventura.
He was a talented rider and mechanic when he and his wife Sheila moved here from England, I didn't ever get all the details, but iirc they were newlyweds and had no children. I've followed Brit bikes and racing since the 50's and never have seen any 50's or 60's reference to Reggie in the english mc press...odd because he kicked butt here right away iirc.

He was also a great sidecar racer, and sold me his TR6, 1960 race engine that I put in my Gold Star frame and made into a TriBsa, with all the rip roarityness that you would expect, with the excellent handling and good looks of the BSA. My favorite bike...well, except for the Manxs and the Golds Star... Nixon got that one, and the '62 Manx. Not Gary, Richard :<

I think Reggie put a 750 Kwacker triple in the sidecar, can't remember.

I wonder if there's an online history of the AFM?

I don't know the current whereabouts of the Manx engine, or if the buyer, who was pretty iffy about it in a way, ever put it back together or sold it off. Actually the whole thing is so heartbreaking I don't want to know, but if you need me to I will, ask nice :>

I still have the frame and am intending, heh, to put the Gold Star DBD engine back together (Humpty D) or an A7 or an A10.

Ok, your turn.
What's your interest in it?
As this is your first post here, welcome to the BritBike Forum. Did you delurk just for this?
Thanks for your interest.

#290275 - 12/21/09 11:47 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: ]  
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phantom309 Offline
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spfld vt
I do know if it needs motor work there is none better then maurice candy. He ownes and builds the manx I race.One dnf with loose oil line in about 30 plus races.Sounds like a great find.


Tim Joyce
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#290727 - 12/24/09 9:31 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: ]  
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Bodger Offline
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Sniff.

It's great to see it again.

Yes, it was an early one, I recall Reggie mentioning it as experimental.

The gink who prised it from me said 'Reggie wanted it back'..the Gardner that is. Not surprised he didn't get it back. I was never paid fully either. (Not your problem of course.)

You could phone Mr Gardner, his number was posted above by a helpful BritBiker :>

#290952 - 12/26/09 7:26 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Bodger]  
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Twin Pot Phil Offline
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Birmingham, UK
Hello All,
Do you mind if add my 2C's worth.

Ron (Gardner) has (I believe) confirmed to the USA authorities satisfaction the various dates that he made the various types of Gardner carb's available, so (I believe) they are now considered legal for historic racing over there. Should you wish I can get this info from Ron for publication here.

I know Ron Gardner quite well and have spoken to him (technically) at length about his carb's.
He has dyno figures that show if you bolt on one of his carb's on "a" bike in place of the corresponding size AMAL GP that same engine will make 5% more power and will pick the throttle up faster in response to a change. This increase is all down to how the Gardner "presents" the atomised fuel to the incoming air - in a more advantageous form than AMAL or Mik.
The better response is down to how the carb operates, as the jet moves and not the needle.

A Mik will give a better response to change than a GP - this is all down to a better signal at the jet (which is not a surprise as the GP jet is a bus ride away (by comparison to the Mik) from where the signal is initially generated.

The GP will give better full throttle power than the Mik.

Of course having said that there will be cazillions that will now come on here disagreeing with everything I've typed (lol).

If any of you out there wish, I can get you up to date prices for the various sizes you may require, you can then order direct from Ron (Gardner), or I can arrange shipment for you - your choice.

I can also offer a response to questions on the Gardner, should you wish.

HTH
Cheers
Phil

#291811 - 01/01/10 7:31 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: ]  
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Twin Pot Phil Offline
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Birmingham, UK
Hi Beng & Britbodger

The carb pictured is known as the "B" type and these were earlier type (compared to the 400 series) of carb Ron made (up to about 1950).
If you wish, when Ron returns from his christmas & new year break I can get him to explain the letters & numbers "from the horses mouth".

HTH

#291812 - 01/01/10 7:40 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.]  
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Twin Pot Phil Offline
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Ron,
do you know that it is OK to use a Gardner carb without a float chamber (for tracks without big climbs and "dips"), due to its positive shut off when closed, the carb also operates OK when mounted at almost vertical downdraft.
It is possible to set it up to a part fuelled tank, it just means you cannot run with a "nearly empty" tank at the end of the race (but there again, how many do these days?)

#292485 - 01/05/10 9:22 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: ]  
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Twin Pot Phil Offline
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Twin Pot Phil  Offline
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Hi Beng,
Dohh, I really must learn to read (and/or stop being stupid), I am so familiar with that paperwork that I didn't bother to review it before posting, sorry.
I can scan and post the 400 series instruction sheet if you wish.
FYI, the model sequence is:
B series - 1948-50
C & D series - 1950 onwards through the 1960s
(models 100, 200, 300) and range from 1 inch through to inch and three quarter.
400 is the current model and range from 1 inch through to 39.7mm and 40mm (which is known as FF model)

Ron stocks the 100, 200, 300 and 400 ranges (although only the 400 are ex stock
Carbs can be ordered as bolt on (flanged) or hose fitting.

HTH

#295245 - 01/22/10 4:34 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: ]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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Hi All.. well, I just read the 2010 AHRMA rule book.. and the Gardner is not legal (again).. unless I missed it... they took the specific Gardner exception out again.... And also no AMAL Mk2 smooties, so I will be running the Mk2 Concentric standard version.. Someone please correct me if I am wrong...

Cheers..!

Ron

#295574 - 01/24/10 7:01 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
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Hmm... the more I think about it all.. the more I am a tad pissed.. The AHRMA 2009 rulebook specifically mentioned the Garder as legal. Now that a certain person no longer runs them... ahem.. voila that line is out of the 2010 rulebook..

Now FYI, I had suggested that AHRMA make the Mk2 smootie legal, and so now it is made real clear that the Mk2 Smoothbore is not legal... sure has a ring of "politics" to me.. I am mounting up the non-smoothbore today... geesh..

Sorry, rant over...

Cheers..!

Ron

#295637 - 01/25/10 2:19 am Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.]  
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phantom309 Offline
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spfld vt
Ron, top of page 37 Gardner carbs are allowed for 500 premier and gp.Also said period components and I would say that makuni was only a flang mount in 68 not a big honkin spigot 46mm something.:)


Tim Joyce
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#295803 - 01/26/10 4:31 am Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: phantom309]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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Thanks Tim..!! Somehow I knew it had to be there.. Guess I need more sleep or something... again I will down to the last minute.. waiting on other people..

But, we will have fun in the Daytona sun..!!

Cheers..!!

Ron

#295859 - 01/26/10 2:39 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.]  
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phantom309 Offline
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spfld vt
Brian going to make it?we all seem to be waiting on other people.:)

Last edited by phantom309; 01/26/10 2:41 pm.

Tim Joyce
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#295873 - 01/26/10 3:43 pm Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: phantom309]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
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In Remembrance

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California
Yes, Brian and Liza are going..!! Brian even went and got new leathers..! So you won't see a Bumble Bee on a Green Monster..

Off to work I go... gotta try and pay for all this fun... heh..

Thanks again..!

Cheers..!

Ron

#296013 - 01/27/10 1:47 am Re: Gardner carbs? [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.]  
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phantom309 Offline
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spfld vt
good,will he have the 750 too?


Tim Joyce
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