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#291078 - 12/27/09 11:23 pm BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads  
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busy Offline
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british type bolt and nut type threads are doing my head in because half the bolts are cactus on my 1965 A65
could somebody
let me know what the norm style bolt and nut threads are for a 65 A65 ?
BA, bSC, BSF, BSP, BSTP BSW,CEI, UNI etc etc
regards
Jamie
ps happy new year

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#291100 - 12/28/09 3:04 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: busy]  
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Ignoramus Online content
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Jamie:
Sounds like you are going to just love the whitworth size hexagons (not AF that would be too easy) on most of the nuts/bolt heads....probably why the nuts are butchered...you know the old using metric or AF sockets which are nearly right. Previous owner probably ended up with a ****ed socket set from hammering nearly big enough sockets on.

Best bet is to get a decent parts book which has most of the thread TPI's in it.

There is, as you are discovering, no standard system, but a mixture of systems.

Mostly yours (earlier one) will be BSF and Whit with a fair amount of cycle (26tpi) thrown in....the latter ones were worse they added UNF and UNC to the mixture, presumably to entertain our American friends....Im stuffed if I can think why else BSA would have done it.

Any particular bolts/threads you want to ID?

Last edited by Ignoramus; 12/28/09 3:13 am.

"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#291109 - 12/28/09 4:49 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: busy]  
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Jamie,
Most thread pitch on BSA's, are cycle thread, 26TPI, or Whitworth, whatever thread pitch they use.
But, the ANGLE of the thread sides, at least for the Whitworth threads, is 55 degrees, not the 60 degrees used in USNF, or USNC.
As was told to you in the other thread, You are going to have to get sets of Whitworth & cycle thread wrenches and sockets, in the LONG run, you will be happier....

1/2 inch and 13mm are close, so is 1/4W to 13mm, but the 1/2 is smallest, and the 1/4W is largest, same way with 11mm, 7/16, and 3/16W, these being, in my opinion, the closest 'matching' wrench sizes, but DO NOT let that fool you into complacency, because NONE OF THEM ARE EXACTLY THE SAME! 12 point box wrenches WILL round the shoulders off....

For decades, I never could find the 'correct' size wrench or socket to fit the drive worm gear on the crank, for the oil pump. I stumbled onto a BSA deep well 6 point box wrench that exactly fits it. Haven't seen another one since. I'd sure like to stumble onto the extractor for the timing pinion sometime......

As has been said, get the right tools the first time. And the tools you need, are the Whitworth and Cycle thread wrenches and sockets. ...MAYBE a few of the BA wrenches also....
I wouldn't pursue any larger than 1/2W... Yeah, there are the fork tube cap nuts, and maybe a few others larger.....

What are you concentrating on now? Frame work? Engine?

If whatever you are taking apart has been boogered with, and the shoulders of the fasteners have been rounded off, you're in for a miserable bunch of work..... Getting the correct sockets MIGHT help you remove them....
Brett
P.S. I have never heard if Allen type socket heads were ever offered in Whitworth sizes.....
P.P.S. I am about to order sets of taps and dies, along with a thread pitch gauge [WONDERFUL little tool!], from Tracy Tools in ol' blighty, just so's I can chase threads on the fasteners I have. I find tolerances on these fasteners to be closer than offered now-a-days, and any junque in the threads, seems to cause them to bind up, and strip out....

#291122 - 12/28/09 10:40 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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Hi Jamie,

Just to clarify the previous posts:-

. Although it seems often taken to mean any Imperial threadform, "Whitworth" is the name of an actual threadform; however, being coarse (few threads per inch) it was rarely used where vibration could work it loose (who mentioned British motorcycles? wink ) and BSA didn't use it.

. For threads into aluminium alloy, BSA used BSF (British Standard Fine); this does have a 55-degree thread pitch angle.

. For threads into iron or steel (including bolts and screws into nuts), BSA used Cycle, also known as CEI (Cycle Engineers Institute) and BSC (British Standard Cycle). Most diameters are 26tpi but larger ones (7/16" and above) can be 20tpi; this has a 60-degree thread pitch angle.

. Both BSF and Cycle use the same head sizes for the same shank diameters but, unlike Unified and AF, the head size is never referred to, only the shank diameter.

. Be aware that, although they have different thread pitch angles, 1/4"BSF and 1/4"Cycle have the same tpi and, the best part of 50 years on, one will generally screw into the other. Similarly, especially when you're searching for taps and dies, there's a 26 tpi, 55-degree-angle thread known as BSB - British Standard Brass.

. The above tends to apply to diameters 1/4" and bigger; below 1/4", BSA and its outside suppliers used BA (British Association), which has a completely different pitch angle (47.5 degrees) and head sizes. With BA, the bigger the number, the smaller the diameter.

Notwithstanding any of the above, many replacement parts have been supplied with metric threads for many years, but some haven't. Also, when BSA changed to Unified threads in the late 1960's, many parts were still the same basically, just with different threads, so would still fit in place of the original Imperially-threaded parts. If you're going to waste your time with old British clunkers, along with sets of Imperial sockets and spanners, also worth having are a set of thread pitch gauges, at least a good steel ruler but better a micrometer, and an engineer's handbook, for looking up what you've measured! wink

Hth.

Regards,

#291184 - 12/28/09 9:57 pm Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Stuart]  
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Thank You Stuart!
I stand corrected, AND I learned something new.
Brett

#291190 - 12/28/09 10:23 pm Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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thanks, guys,
re what i intend to work on is basically the whole bike I have mainly built
Vintage and classic japanese so i'm all metric,
except that i inherited a lot of what i would have called Sae tools ,spanners ,sockets
etc in some of the sizes some of you have mentioned
i Just wanted to get and idea of what tools i will need for re building the top end,
and general maintenance
the bike i'm working on is originally a 1965 spitfire hornet (engine prefix A65E.9xx chassis no:A50B:4xxx) that some time in its past it has been set up for the road judging by a 67/68 thunderbolt tank and a 67/68 headlight
the speedo is run from the rear wheel
heres a couple of photos
regards
jamie


#291193 - 12/28/09 10:37 pm Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: busy]  
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ps some of you will probably notice its got a few fins missing on the head,
have head another to replace it with but i want to get it going first,
to see if its going to be a complete engine rebuild apparently it has only under 15,000 miles on it but a tad sceptical about that
Jamie

#291197 - 12/28/09 10:57 pm Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: busy]  
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Jamie,
A few short suggestions: (1) I bought a set of the 26tpi taps and dies and have used them many, many times. With my other taps this gives me ability to determine what the thread size is as well ass cleaning up threads. (2) Where I have good nuts and bolts in the frame etc, I often replace thme with SAE so as to use the british bolts where you have tapped holes and need a good bolt. (3) Check out British fasteners and (4) get the five most common wrenches and sockets. They'll handle 95% of everything on the bike.

Mr Mike

#291205 - 12/28/09 11:48 pm Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: busy]  
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Rickman Online content
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Jamie,
Two items came immediatly to my mind, after reading your newest posts;
1) The seat on the bike in the pic, makes me wonder if your frame is the full loop one... It may not be, probably isn't, since the wheels aren't full width, just the half hub & QD... Are they both 19 inch?
Nevertheless, 2) I don't see how twin carb side panels are retained at the front oddie fastener.... Nor do I see the tab that was supposed to be on my frame [full loop], if it was supposed to be a twin carb bike... Do you have the side panels for this bike?
This makes me wonder if the engine you have, is a transplant.....
Besides the [perhaps] incorrect tank, it appears you have almost all the sheet metal.... Too bad about the rat's nest wire harness....

A third item to consider; How long has the bike sat? Secondarily to this, any history of care given to the bike?
While I am NOT trying to strike terror in your heart, I have become a firm believer in tearing an unknown BSA engine down to the crank, and having the sludge trap cleaned out.
This happened after a friend's A10 engine grenaded at speed, and I had three cranks in a row, with ALMOST closed up sludge traps. All within less than a years' time frame.
Brett
P.S. I need a pair of H-2 calipers, perhaps early Z-1... IF you know of any cheap! Shipping to concider in the cost....

Last edited by Rickman; 12/29/09 12:00 am.
#291217 - 12/29/09 12:43 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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'Nother thought; Is there a speedo drive under the right side of the engine?
I don't know much about the early A65 engines.... But, some of them had speedo drives under the engine, not at the back wheel...

Last edited by Rickman; 12/29/09 12:44 am.
#291220 - 12/29/09 12:56 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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Hi Brett
thanks
the wheels are 19 front and 18 rear
I have the bracket for the side covers and the side covers which are correct for the bike were red but rattle can black,now
i have the original tin wear for the front forks ears when it was used without a headlight
the chassis and eng number comes up as a LR Clubman TR clubman or a Spitfire /hornet
have no idea how long the bike has been sitting for or history
but the bike turns over freely and the gears engage
the bike is an american import but i also received in the deal the english version tank probably 66/67

i'm not interested in returning it to S/Hornet specs
more interested in using the bike for daily rides rallies
if anything wouldnt mind restoring it to replica clubman specs
heres photos of the spare tank and side covers


ps i,m a member of VJMCA will ask around but i'm a Yamaha XS650 man

#291221 - 12/29/09 12:56 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: busy]  
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yes it is a twin carb bike

#291222 - 12/29/09 12:58 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Mr Mike]  
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hi Mike,
which one would those be ,
I do have a big tool box with inherited sae tools from my uncle who built up old morris majors and triumph motorcycles
j

#291224 - 12/29/09 1:04 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Stuart]  
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thanks Stuart
i think the first thing i will do is
get a Whit worth thread gauge
regards
j

#291229 - 12/29/09 1:17 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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Originally Posted By: Rickman
For decades, I never could find the 'correct' size wrench or socket to fit the drive worm gear on the crank, for the oil pump. I stumbled onto a BSA deep well 6 point box wrench that exactly fits it. Haven't seen another one since.

Ah, the infamous 20mm!! That is also used on the rear brake stay and I think the foot peg nuts? And a couple others. Drove me crazy for a while, and many metric wrench sets don't even come with a 20mm. Where in the world did they come up with that one?? confused

#291231 - 12/29/09 1:23 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Mr Mike]  
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Hi Jamie,

Originally Posted By: Mr Mike
(4) get the five most common wrenches and sockets. They'll handle 95% of everything on the bike.

I'll take an educated guess at 2BA, 1/4", 5/16", 3/8" and 1/2"; only bigger than 1/2" o.d. will be things like front (unless clamped) and rear wheel spindles and the swinging arm spindle.

Btw, one thing I should've mentioned is you sometimes find sockets intended for Imperial bolts and nuts marked in thirty-seconds in AF sets. My first socket set I bought shortly after my first T160, which was Unified threads and AF hexs.; I couldn't work out why I had five or six sockets at something/32", when everthing else was sixteenths, eighths, quarters, etc. crazy 'Til I first worked on an ex-girlfriend's early 1960's Tiger 90 and found I had 'AF' sockets that'd fit the Imperial bolts and nuts. bigt

Hth.

Regards,

#291236 - 12/29/09 2:03 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Jim Hultman]  
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Stuart,
I also suggest 3/16W.
Yeah, I have one or two wrenches in 32nds.....

I'll be dangged Jim!
Yer roiyt!
A few years ago, I bought a set of impact deep well metric sockets, which came with a 20mm. It worked! Now, I have something to properly torque them with!

A thought; MAYBE, whoever BSA contracted with to supply those worm gears, would only make 'em with the 20mm hex, or that was the only 'logical' size to use with the designated worm gear size???? And the clearance allowed by the location of the oil pump???

Last edited by Rickman; 12/29/09 8:59 pm.
#291262 - 12/29/09 5:06 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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That will make a real nice bike.

#291275 - 12/29/09 10:05 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: Rickman
I also suggest 3/16.

Ime, Mike's "95%" of nominally-3/16"-dia. fasteners will be 2BA. I don't know if you'll find such things as 3/16"Cycle or BSF threads, just that they're more likely to fall into the "5%". wink

Hth.

Regards,

#291326 - 12/29/09 5:22 pm Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Stuart]  
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Although from a thread perspective 2BA and BSF 3/16" are considered "interchangeable", the respective sockets are marginally different.

2BA = .324" AF
BS 3/16" (1/8"W) = .340" AF

Enough to round some corners on your hardware anyway.

#291358 - 12/29/09 8:58 pm Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Britishtools]  
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Rickman Online content
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Interesting!
I have an open end wrench, that has 3/16W & 1/8W. I may have to obtain some of those BA sizes now....

#291414 - 12/30/09 2:30 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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Ignoramus Online content
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thing is about whitworth sizes they dont always correspond to the theoretical size of the bolt/head ratio...particularly on bikes. Pretty often you find say a 1/16 bolt that has to use the 1/4 spanner (for example)ect so the biggest range of spanners you get the better off you will be.

Cant think what for exactly but i seem to use 1/8whit lots

Most decent brands will have the corresponding BSF hex size also stamped on them under the withworth size


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#291418 - 12/30/09 3:13 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Ignoramus]  
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A good set of imperial box spanners rather than sockets is very handy when working on the engine, there isnt enough clearance in the castings to allow a socket entry. Dont think whitworth, an imperial spanner or socket is marked i.e 3/16 wht.1/4 BSF at one end the other may be 1/4 whit . 5/16 BSF .
British Standard Fine applies to all the chassis and engine parts apart from a few specific cycle threads ( the head stock centre nut, kickstart cotter and some others.)
BSF uses a hex size one smaller than old time whitworth hence the two marks, whitworth was for coorse industry not motorcycles.
BSF is your man and refers to the diameter of the fastener not the head,

You really need 3/16 whit, 1/4 BSF........ 1/4 whit 5/16 BSF

The 1/4 BSF 5/16 BSF...... 5/16 whit/ 3/8 BSF is a very useful size.

The next size up
3/8 BSF ........7/16th will be handy too

find ring and open ended variants of these.
You will also find a need for imperial allen keys/ AF is cool .
Junk sales are a good source look for "king dick, hilka or britool" are good names too watch for.
BA was used for H/ bar controls, carbs and some electrics.

Just to confuse matters it was common to use a smaller hex than std to save weight on engine mounts and other frame chassis bolts, generally the next imperial size down.

As a sub note on engine fasteners
it was once considered de rigeur to replace the engine casing 1/4 screws with allen headed screws , this is a very sensible mod ,and kits are available from Custom fasteners , I much prefer to work with these , the cross head screws nearly always look hellish.
Pod

Last edited by pod; 12/30/09 3:21 am.

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#291461 - 12/30/09 3:08 pm Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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Originally Posted By: Rickman
Interesting!
I have an open end wrench, that has 3/16W & 1/8W. I may have to obtain some of those BA sizes now....


King Dick has a nice 6 pc, open end set of BA wrenches. Click on the link to us in my signature and search for part number 7792 to see a pic

#291518 - 12/31/09 1:43 am Re: BSA A65 bolt and nut type threads [Re: Rickman]  
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strangely enough i have speedo drive on the back wheel and under the engine ??

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