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got anti wet sump valve for birthday #275682
09/21/09 2:49 am
09/21/09 2:49 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
MO, USA
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rg500g Offline OP
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MO, USA
I mentioned wet sumping on these bikes, and a friend and fellow motorcyclist bought me a fairly expensive anti sumping valve ( I saw it somewhere, black on one end, clear center, aluminim other end ) and I'm considering installing it.

I own a '71 A65L and I don't like the slow migration of the oil from the tank to somewhere else. I've never had blue smoke out the exhaust, plugs always dry, I posted earlier with the silly header of "who's siphoning my oil!" because oil level in tank seems to drop considerably and I can't account for it.

I'm considering the valve as a diagnostic. If I install the valve and tank level remains more or less stable I'm good. Now, I've seen posts elsewhere speaking about why you should NOT install the valve, and would greatly appreciate any input that discusses risks posted to the engine by installing such a device.

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Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: rg500g] #275695
09/21/09 8:04 am
09/21/09 8:04 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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I would never use one, the whole idea of cutting off oil supply to the motor freaks me out, if the pump cavitates you get no oil, we had posts on here of people wrecking motors by fitting them. A BSA used regularly should never have a problem with wetsumping unless there is something not right. It should stand for weeks and not wetsump, if it does then its likely leaking out the join in the pump or past the little check ball behind the pump (which is less likely). That little check ball cannot starve the motor for oil because its on the pressure side of the pump, the anti wet sumping valves usually go in the pipe from the tank where the pump tries to draw oil through, there should be no restriction, even a smaller pipe can cause problems, like in the T150s where in cold weather the pumps can cavitate and oil flow stop, T160s have a bigger feed hose.


mark
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Mark Parker] #275709
09/21/09 11:50 am
09/21/09 11:50 am
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Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
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Mr Mike Offline
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I agree with all Mark has said. Another problem with the valve is fogetting to open it. Who hasn't inadvertently left a key on or a light switch and flattened a battery?

One thing good about wetsumping is that you know oil is getting to the pump unrestricted...there's something to be said for that. A gear pump creats very high pressure but not much much suction. Any obstruction could be a disaster.

Mr Mike

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Mr Mike] #275760
09/21/09 4:26 pm
09/21/09 4:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 195
uk
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gram Offline
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Speaking as someone who has had an A10 engine wrecked by one of these valves i find these questions quite interesting.My opinion now is that it is like throwing a plastic sheet over your roof when the water starts coming in.For the rebuild i got a re-furbished oil pump from SRM and as per advice from this site carefully sealed the end plates and checked that the pump body did'nt distort as the screws were done up(i did away with the studs).Since the rebuild 3 years ago i've had no bother with wet sumping at all,even during the 5 months when the roads are gritted and salted and the engine is'nt started.I change the oil at the end of my riding season and refill with new oil.I only refill to an inch or so above the pick up in the tank to reduce the head of fluid above the pump.I also leave the pistons at TDC.
Incidentally the AWS valve(fitted by a PO)cut oil supply to the engine because varnish or dirt caused the steel ball to stick on it's seat.Pump suction was not enough to overcome the stickiness.
Just my twa penny'worth.
Gram

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: gram] #275814
09/21/09 10:52 pm
09/21/09 10:52 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,543
Auckland NZ
Ignoramus Offline
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Auckland NZ
Rg:
Personaly I would never fit one either, I think it was either RichB or Alex who said "the only thing that should be in the line between the tank and the pump is oil"

You have quite a unique problem now because if you DONT fit it your well meaning and generous freind will feel ofended. You might have to buy him a large bottle of good quality Burbon and when you are both libated tell him of your terrible confession that you lost the valve and feel realy bad. If he buys you another repeat the exercise


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Ignoramus] #275815
09/21/09 11:15 pm
09/21/09 11:15 pm
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
MO, USA
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rg500g Offline OP
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MO, USA
Well allrighty... I'd just like to be able to have the bike sit 3 days and not have the oil level drop so low that I can barely get any oil on the end of the stick, when 3 days prior it was at the top third of the level. It's like 'where the hell does it go?'. That bugs me enough to contemplate things like the checkvalve. I diligently push the kickstart down after garaging the bike until it 'feels' like TDC, and still, where does the oil go? No big sooty pipes, no sooty plugs, it's a mystery.

OK - the valve does not go in, but I definitely don't like this oil tank level reduction nonsense, and if it bothers me enough I just might cut off my nose to spite my face and install it just to spite the bike.

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: rg500g] #275821
09/22/09 12:01 am
09/22/09 12:01 am
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 62
Texas
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bandit Offline
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Texas
I don't know....RG. I've had one in my line for the last year or so. Oil liked to say in the sump more than in the tank, so the shop I was in installed it. So far the oil stays where it ought to. I'm running 20-50 amsoil mc oil which is known to find its way into everything and everywhere, but I have lots of return pressure in the tank. That red light still comes on at low revs. Synthetic's known for its ability to be pushed through out the engine block with less resistance....go figure....


69 Lightning
71 BMW R75/5
57 Cushman
74 MGB

So it's every hand to his rope or gun,
Quick's the word, Sharp's the Action.....
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: bandit] #275823
09/22/09 12:05 am
09/22/09 12:05 am
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 62
Texas
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bandit Offline
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Texas
oh, by the way,,,,happy birthday......!


69 Lightning
71 BMW R75/5
57 Cushman
74 MGB

So it's every hand to his rope or gun,
Quick's the word, Sharp's the Action.....
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: bandit] #275882
09/22/09 11:21 am
09/22/09 11:21 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Rg this photo shows where it can go:

See the stream of oil out the joint in this pump body, it could be wiped off and re-apear in a few moments, (easy way to check it). BSA's check valve is after the oil leaves the pump and enters the engines oil gallery, so cannot prevent this. The pump in this case needs fixing, the screws are loose or its distorted. If the 3 mounting nuts(allen bolts in this case) are not tight I would guess it could also seep oil into the C/case, but thats unlikely. There is also BSA's check valve, ball and spring, you could inspect and make sure is in there under the pump, but other than those places the thing shouldn't wet sump.
The pump in a '71 model will be a very good pump either iron or alloy with high volume gears, with 4 bolts rather than 4 screws holding it together, thats what I replaced this one with.
My motor used to be black inside like that because I ran Castor oil, if yous are wondering.


mark
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Mark Parker] #276385
09/26/09 1:38 am
09/26/09 1:38 am
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,478
NYC and York PA
wadeschields Offline

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I had an inline "one way" valve and never had a problem with it (3 yrs)
It was not a turn on / turn off type . So there could be no human error.
When I had the motor rebuilt I elected to not put it back in the line. Mostly cause of recommendations here. I am still not sure that my type is all that bad. But why take a chance I guess. A drain plug on the sump plate takes the hassle out of draining the bottom end if necessary.


http://wadeschields.tumblr.com/

Jack of all trades . Master of fun! wink

Beer is not the Answer.... Its the Question..... The answer is YES

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Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: wadeschields] #276394
09/26/09 2:25 am
09/26/09 2:25 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
MO, USA
R
rg500g Offline OP
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MO, USA
I've got the anti-sump valve in front of me now. Just got back from putting charger on battery, and for grins got the dipstick out of the bag and ran a quick check. NO oil on stick, but it's not been run this week yet. If all the oil goes into the sump (or enough to not show on the stick anymore) after a week idle then the valve will go in for sure. The hose from the tank to the junction is quite short, so I'll have to totally drain all oil and pull the hose, put in the valve as close to the tank as possible, and re-assemble. Valve will of course need to be primed and hose filled and pint put in sump (ordering sump plate and plug tonight) and bike kicked w/o plugs until I see oil come out return tube. Good exercise.

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: rg500g] #276396
09/26/09 2:42 am
09/26/09 2:42 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Bega NSW Australia
It doesn't really address the problem, just introduces a potential bigger one, why not pull the timing cases and fix it?


mark
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Mark Parker] #276402
09/26/09 3:51 am
09/26/09 3:51 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
MO, USA
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rg500g Offline OP
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rg500g  Offline OP
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MO, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Parker
It doesn't really address the problem, just introduces a potential bigger one, why not pull the timing cases and fix it?


Two reasons: 1. pulling outer and inner cases is not a doddle by any means {read - lazy} 2. I have not received a clear voice from this forum and a number of other brit bike sites that the oil stays in the tank even if your pump does not leak, is not warped, and the check ball checks out. Instead I repeatedly hear of wet sumping being a fact of life if you don't run the bike regularly. I want the bike to sit w/o being started for weeks if necessary (dead of winter) and have the oil stay in the tank. I am not willing to accept this as a 'fact of life' for this bike and if the valve keeps the oil in the tank I will install it. Some time in 2010 I may go for broke and install a SRM pump and totally redo everything and THEN remove the valve and see if the oil stays put. If I get a dry stick after letting it sit for a week or two the valve goes back on.

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: rg500g] #276414
09/26/09 9:07 am
09/26/09 9:07 am
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Posts: 174
Brisbane, Australia
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BSA10 Offline
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I think the "clear voice" is in the technical reasons 'why you wouldn't use one'. Placing a spring loaded stop valve before a gear pump just deosn't make sense to me. I have no doubt that many people have run these without any problems but why would you take the risk? I have absolutely no doubt that if I put one in my A10, 'Murphy' would strike within days and I would be down one great engine.
I have an SRM pump fitted to my A10 and I can leave it for 6 months and the oil tank is still full. Probably better to ride it every day but recently that hasn't been possible.
Do yourself a favour, get a decent pump now and fit it. Timing cases aren't hard to remove and the gaskets are cheaper and definitely a doddle compared to an engine rebuild.
Cheers,

Graeme


Graeme
1954 A10 Golden Flash
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: rg500g] #276415
09/26/09 9:11 am
09/26/09 9:11 am
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Posts: 5,963
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Ger B Offline
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Quote:
I am not willing to accept this as a 'fact of life'

I used one on my A65T, only to find that with the valve the engine wet sumped also. Slower... less predictable... but she wet sumped.
So after five years with this bike I now accept it as a fact of life. I have oil presure as soon as I crank the kick starter,
so I do not worry about that.
And if and when I reach a period in my life that gives me some more time to think of myself and not work,
I'll doddle (is that an Aussie word?) with the cases and fish the oil pump out to check the delivery ball valve.
And I'll probably hate myself for doing it when I discover other, non related issues which are no issues when you just ride,
but prevent you to close up the cases when you find them...


Ger B

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Ger B] #276417
09/26/09 9:44 am
09/26/09 9:44 am
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 174
Brisbane, Australia
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BSA10 Offline
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Ger,
I had to look it up in the dictionary after reading it in rg500g's previous post. Not an Aussie word as far as I know. We tend to use things like 'Piece of Cake', 'Piss easy' etc.
cheers,
Graeme


Graeme
1954 A10 Golden Flash
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: wadeschields] #276418
09/26/09 9:55 am
09/26/09 9:55 am
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Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
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Mr Mike Offline
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I have three bikes. One has not been started in a year because of some mods I planned but never got around to. It's oil level does not show at all on the dip siick. My other bikes which get ridden alternately can go several months before the oil level drops a pint of two. Who sells those sump plates with the drain plug? I think I'll buy three.

Mr Mike

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Mr Mike] #276470
09/26/09 7:51 pm
09/26/09 7:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 195
uk
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gram Offline
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'I have not received a clear voice from this forum and a number of other brit bike sites that the oil stays in the tank even if your pump does not leak, is not warped, and the check ball checks out.'

Sorry RG, i'll try and express myself more clearly in future.Oh! by the by,went and checked the bike over before tomorrows 200 mile run but i could'nt get any oil in even after not running for 3 weeks.What am i doing wrong!!
Cheers Gram

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: gram] #276530
09/27/09 11:25 am
09/27/09 11:25 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
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Mr Mike Offline
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When you think about it few a few seconds, it is a foregone conclusion that the oil in the elevated tank will eventually seep thru to the sump. The gears have clearance even if the pump body is tight. The light spring and 1/4 in ball behind the pump, even when perfect, are unlikely to overcome the head pressure of an elevated tank. If even the smallest piece of grit gets under the ball it will allow the oil to seep thru. That's just the nature of a dry sump design where the oil reservoir is above the gear pump. So why do we use a dry sump...probably to get the mass of the motor closer to the ground. If you had a wet sump, with the pump immersed in an oil pan (like most cars and some bikes), you would have to have the motor higher up in the frame and that would surely affect handling. My b44 has been sitting for more than a year and I will bet the tank is nearly empty and the sump full. Generally however it takes a few months for my oil levels to drop more than a pint. If it is down a quart or more, I drain the sump before starting....a royal pain in the a** when you just want to start up and go for a ride.

Gees just think, if we didn't want to put up with all these problems we could just go get us a new Jap bike. That's what everyone did in the sixties and that left all of us old guys, touched by nostalgia, with a bunch of these leftover, idle, and broken down BSA's to fiddle with. Now ain't that nice!

Mr Mike

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Mr Mike] #276532
09/27/09 11:39 am
09/27/09 11:39 am
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Ger B Offline
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Quote:
Who sells those sump plates with the drain plug?


Mike I'm sure they are sold over there, but since nobody from your side of the pond anwers:
[click for pic]
[click here for the site]


Ger B

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: wadeschields] #276655
09/28/09 2:59 am
09/28/09 2:59 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 806
San Luis Obispo, CA
Richard Phillips Offline
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According to Rabiers the black and clear plastic AWV has given them no problems. However like we all know this is a band-aid.
If the oil pump is tight, leak free at the joint and spins good the only thing left is the check ball and spring must seat properly. I found two problems with this. First the gaskets supplied sometimes are not a good fit at the spring and ball. The whole is either too small or of center which catches the spring impairing the ball. I usually punch the hole larger or oval it a bit.. Second is seating of the ball. I like to use an old ball stuffed half way into a Lucas bullit connector then using lapping compound and spin the ball into the oil pump hole until a good size shiny ring appears. I follow up with a brass punch to seat the new ball in the oil pumps hole.
So far this has worked for me.
Hope this helps
Richard

Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: rg500g] #276679
09/28/09 7:38 am
09/28/09 7:38 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,103
Stone Creek OH USA
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Rich B Online happy
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You need clear voice???

The ONLY thing that should be in the oil line between your tank and engine is clean oil. Yea, some people run the anti wet sumping valve and it works. Some have run the wet sumping valve and it doesn't work. The doesn't work is expensive. And not worth it.

Quit being lazy and remove the timing covers. You may have loose pump sections, loose pump to engine, crud under the ball, a worn pump, or all of the above. And like mentioned in this thread, the gasket fit leaves a lot ot be desired. The gasket usually tangles the ball and spring. And the ports don't line up too well. The idea of lapping the seat on the pump is good. I don't use a punch to seat the ball anymore, IMO, it distorts the seat, lapping is non destructive. As long as you THOROUGHLY clean the pump body when done. Replace the spring should go without saying.

The anti wet sump valve is a band aid. The bikes were designed to be run, not looked at. They behave much better when they get run.

And even then they will wet sump. Gravity always wins that contest.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Rich B] #276871
09/29/09 3:22 pm
09/29/09 3:22 pm
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,478
NYC and York PA
wadeschields Offline

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NYC and York PA
Like I said - I never put my valve back in just because of the "might happen" factor even though mine performed perfectly. New motor - no chances! I cant afford to build another one for that bike. I have other motors that need my money.
That said IF YOU DO INSTALL THE VALVE!!!!!!!

Correct me if I am wrong here but it MUST be installed on the return side NOT the feed line!!!!


http://wadeschields.tumblr.com/

Jack of all trades . Master of fun! wink

Beer is not the Answer.... Its the Question..... The answer is YES

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Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: wadeschields] #276872
09/29/09 3:35 pm
09/29/09 3:35 pm
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Posts: 12,962
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Originally Posted By: wadeschields


Correct me if I am wrong here but it MUST be installed on the return side NOT the feed line!!!!


Correction coming!

Oil filters are installed on the return line from the sump to the oil tank.

"Anti-wet-sumping valves" would not prevent oil from draining down from the tank if it were in the return line. On the other hand, it can't destroy your engine if it's in the return line either, so if someone made me install one at gunpoint, I'd put it in the return line!

Remember, all, the following statements are all true.

1) Some people have installed "anti-wet-sump" check valves in their oil supply line, and their engines have not been destroyed. The AWS check valve prevents oil from leaking from the tank to the sump. They are happy with the situation.

2) Some people installed AWS check valves in their oil supply line. The normally-operating, good condition valve prevented oil from coming down the line while the engine was running, and damaged or destroyed it.

3) If there is NO AWS check valve in one's supply line, then it CANNOT block the flow of oil to the engine. The engine may fail, but it won't be because a check valve installed in the supply line of a suction pump failed to open.

4) Several people on this list, who do or have made their living designing and servicing hydraulic systems and pumps, know that installing a check valve in the suction side of a gear pump is a BAD DESIGN PRACTICE, and it is never done except as a "band-aid" for an already-faulty pump.

5) The evidence in favor of installing an ASW valve is always of the form "Well, I've got one in my bike, and it hasn't failed yet".

When I added up those 5 data points, I threw my ASW valve as far away as I could, and set to rebuilding the bearings that were trashed as a result .....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: got anti wet sump valve for birthday [Re: Lannis] #291500
12/30/09 10:51 pm
12/30/09 10:51 pm
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 22
Norway
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ian928 Offline
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Norway
Just thought I would bring back this thread because I read an article about a guy building a scale 1:2 Willeys Jeep for his son in the sixties. He even built the engine himself, and it obviously had some form of wet sump, because there was an oil tank placed high with a valve that had to be closed when the car was not in use. He knew that someday his son would forget to open the valve, so he connected a microswitch to the oilvalve so the engine would not start unless the valve was open.

I know that a valve is a band-aid and that wet-sumping is something that should be expected from these bikes, but surely there must exist a small valve with a built-in switch that could be used for us lazy ones?

Last edited by ian928; 12/30/09 10:45 pm.
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