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#279684 - 10/18/09 10:30 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: JubeePrince]
L.A.B. Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 2459
Loc: Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
I expect most of the 622/101's end up in those little Amal rebuild kits,


Yes, as I've never known them to contain anything other than 622/101 O-rings!

http://www.amalcarb.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?id=978







Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
If you'd like a couple of known 70-9711's so you can compare to any you order, drop me a PM....



Thanks for the offer, Steve. I was aware there was supposed to be a thicker O-ring available,-just never seen them! Anyway I've e-mailed my regular Triumph twin parts supplier, so I'll see what he has to say on the subject.

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#279719 - 10/19/09 5:32 am Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: John Healy]
L.A.B. Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 2459
Loc: Norfolk, UK
I received a reply from my parts supplier (Len Craig) who said he does keep the thicker O-rings, however he warned me to make sure my carbs actually take the thicker O-rings.

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#279798 - 10/19/09 8:16 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: John Healy]
L.A.B. Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 2459
Loc: Norfolk, UK
So today, I removed the left hand carb from my '78 T140V Bonneville (which, as far as I am aware, is the original AMAL 930/L93, as it is a relatively low mileage bike) in order to check the dimensions of an O-ring groove, which measured up as dead-on 0.070" wide and 0.055" deep.

Therefore, I can only conclude that the 622/101 0.070" O-ring appears to be the correct part for my own Bonneville's carb flanges-at least?




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#279799 - 10/19/09 8:18 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: L.A.B.]
twinspin Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 716
Loc: Berkshire
TMS supply the correct O rings and they are significantly larger so that they are impossible to fit unless you use a smear of grease to provide adhesion while being offered up. The AMAL supplied rings sit nicely in the groove. The main benefit of the O ring is in providing heat isolation.
I looked at the line of '70 Bonnevilles at the recent celebration at Gaydon and only a small minority had correctly fitted O rings with the gap between the carb and the manifold. Also all sorts of stud arrangements were present. Some of the dealers present didn't even know about the O ring at the time let alone stock them.
_________________________
1971 T100R
1970 T120

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#279803 - 10/19/09 6:43 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: twinspin]
L.A.B. Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 2459
Loc: Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted By: twinspin
I looked at the line of '70 Bonnevilles at the recent celebration at Gaydon and only a small minority had correctly fitted O rings with the gap between the carb and the manifold.


Which sort of suggests that many Bonneville owners don't actually encounter any problems by using the 622/101 O-rings (as I haven't)?

However, I will get some of the thicker O-rings from Len Craig, and see if they actually make any difference to carb heat isolation (which at this time of the year in the UK is rather doubtful)?

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#279813 - 10/19/09 9:31 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: L.A.B.]
John Healy Online   content


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 8422
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
"Therefore, I can only conclude that the 622/101 0.070" O-ring appears to be the correct part for my own Bonneville's carb flanges-at least? "

While your free do make this conclusion it isn't how Triumph did it!

The thicker 70-9711 "O" ring is fitted as twinspin describes to the original AMAL groove (which is you described approx .070" x .055")!

If you email me your address I will be glad to supply you with a DVD with all of the USA model parts books and a copy of my magazine Vintage Bike.
_________________________
"Don't just teach your children to read. Teach them to question what they read." George Carlin

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#279822 - 10/19/09 10:26 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: John Healy]
L.A.B. Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 2459
Loc: Norfolk, UK
Thanks for the offer John,

Well...this whole idea does seem crazy enough as far as British bikes are concerned to be true I suppose?

One thing I did notice when I put the L/H carb back on my Bonneville was that with the carb nuts (with the cupped washers and rubbers) nipped up against the shoulders of the studs, there was still a gap of 0.006" between the carb flange and the manifold.
I then checked the right hand carb joint, which had not been disturbed, and that was exactly the same, so the flanges don't actually appear to touch the manifolds-even when the thinner O-rings are fitted.

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#279834 - 10/19/09 11:43 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: L.A.B.]
btour Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 3494
Loc: Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Thinner/thicker Are you guys meaning the thickness of the cross section of the rubber from which it is made? Cuz that is what I was talking about. Or are you talking about the diameter of the ring itself?
_________________________
Bob

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#279841 - 10/19/09 10:03 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: L.A.B.]
John Healy Online   content


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 8422
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
L.A.B. This isn't crazy one bit, but sure can see your eyes glazing over. This reaction is not uncommon because a lot of people base the knowledge on the parts books.

The parts books were created well before the bikes were built. It wasn't uncommon to get more than one edition for each model year. Some model years it was more.

As I mentioned above, all of the USA parts books came with errata sheets, often 6 pages double sided. This included all of the corrections, additions, etc that were found once the bikes actually got into to production. It also included small changes which were not included in the original parts books for east and west coast models.

Until you had the latest edition, including the errata sheets, you do not have a proper parts manual. Often months after the original books and errata sheets were sent to the dealers there were further corrections that showed up in Parts Department Bulletins. I have no idea whether the factory distributed parts book errata sheets to the UK dealers, but both east and west coast USA distributors did.

By the way the Triumph part number for the 622/101 "O" ring is 99-1153.

While Trevor Gleadall of LP Williams, who bought the JR Nelson parts book business, reprinted copies a lot of parts books that better represented how the bikes were made, the original ones reprinted by John Nelson were full of errors and in some cases didn't come close to representing how the bikes were offered. This was especially true of the USA models.

Now. these errata sheets are available and the best source in the USA is David Gaylin who can sometimes found on eBay as "motorcycledays"

Oh, You could also put 70-2968 phenolic block in place of the 70-9711 like they did in 1969.


Edited by John Healy (10/20/09 12:02 am)
_________________________
"Don't just teach your children to read. Teach them to question what they read." George Carlin

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#279860 - 10/20/09 1:36 am Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: John Healy]
sidreilley Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 31
Loc: Madison, VA
Parts books aside, I would be curious to know why Triumph fitted the thicker o rings to their bikes then, say, Norton, who was using a similar carb. Was it to provide insulation from engine heat that wasn't a problem for Norton because they used the phenolic spacers?

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#279916 - 10/20/09 12:38 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: sidreilley]
twinspin Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 716
Loc: Berkshire
I think the whole thing was done for heat isolation and or mechanical isolation to prevent frothing. I think the heat isolation achieved by the thick O ring was effective from a subjective point of view and was improved further when later carbs were rubber mounted. The studs were also partly isolated from conducting heat on the carbs due to the rubbers and cups. My carbs on my Daytona get a lot hotter even with a phenolic spacer. I improved this a little on the Daytona by using nylon washers on the studs. Probably not a problem in British winter but things get hot in summer especially in traffic.
_________________________
1971 T100R
1970 T120

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#279967 - 10/20/09 5:49 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: John Healy]
L.A.B. Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 2459
Loc: Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted By: John Healy
L.A.B. This isn't crazy one bit, but sure can see your eyes glazing over. This reaction is not uncommon because a lot of people base the knowledge on the parts books.


Yes indeed, but I expect many of us are aware that the parts books and manuals commonly available are not likely to be 100% accurate, but for the majority of us, they are our main sources of reference.

It's hardly any wonder that something like this is going to be treated with just a little bit of scepticism, while it would not on it's own, be particularly difficult to accept that the parts book information regarding the 622/101 O-ring is wrong, what has surprised me the most is that certain knowledgeable specialist Triumph parts suppliers appear to make no distinction between the two O-rings! And I was also advised to only use the 70-9711 seals "if they fitted?" and, technically speaking, they are not actually going to fit!
I have also been unable to find any reference regarding setting a gap between the carb flanges and manifolds in any of the commonly published editions of the Triumph factory workshop manuals ('69'-'78) where the only advice given is that: "Care should be taken not to over-tighten the two carburetter securing nuts" which is rather surprising, (considering this 70-9711 O-ring was supposed to have been the standard part used from '69 (and not just some factory 'make-do' modification fitted to bikes exported to countries with warmer climates than the UK)? So I will at least try some of these 70-9711 O-rings from Len Craig and maybe ask him (and others) few more questions why the 70-9711 O-ring isn't the one generally supplied for Triumphs).




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#280047 - 10/21/09 3:49 am Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: L.A.B.]
JubeePrince Offline
Life member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 5996
Loc: Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted By: L.A.B.

Yes indeed, but I expect many of us are aware that the parts books and manuals commonly available are not likely to be 100% accurate, but for the majority of us, they are our main sources of reference.


And thank goodness we have a site like this one (thanks Morgan!) where we can come and sort this stuff out amongst ourselves and check our 'references' as it were......Not to mention John, Pete, RF, Dick, et al who have lived and breathed this stuff longer than I've been alive (well...almost longer wink ) and freely give their knowledge and time here...

Reminds me of Encyclopedia Britannica. Every year they'd put out a 'World Book' that encompassed all the changes in the world from the previous year, as well as the mistakes and typos that were corrected!

We need a "World Book" for parts!! laugh

Cheers,

Steve
_________________________
'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...

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#283928 - 11/14/09 5:32 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: JubeePrince]
Dave Affleck Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
And thank goodness we have a site like this one (thanks Morgan!) where we can come and sort this stuff out amongst ourselves and check our 'references' as it were......Not to mention John, Pete, RF, Dick, et al who have lived and breathed this stuff longer than I've been alive (well...almost longer wink ) and freely give their knowledge and time here...


A great bit "Amen" to that! I can not tell you how much help this site has been to me, or how much I appreciate it!

As a follow on to this thread and in the "FWIW" category...

I ordered a couple of the AMAL kits from Keith Moore, and whaddayaknow, they contain both the #70-9711 and the #622/101 O-rings.

From L to R are the already installed ring, and the two new rings that were included in the kits, which measure .100 and .070, and so I am assuming are the two different part #'s in question:



And... There was one of these kits in my Dad's box of stuff, unknown age from unknown source, but which also has both of these O-rings in it.

The #70-9711 being larger in diameter, it seems like it's going to be a bugger to keep in the groove on reassembly, but I'll try the smear of grease and see how it goes.

- Dave
_________________________
1977 T140V Silver Jubilee
1970 T120RT

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#283930 - 11/14/09 6:02 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: Dave Affleck]
btour Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 3494
Loc: Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Hi all,

The picture that Dave provided illustrates what I was trying to say. One can see that the one on the far left, is thicker in cross section and smaller in diameter than the one in the middle of the picture. The one on the right being obviously different.

Going back many many years, I have been supplied with all, and told that was the way to go with each one.

John. I know I have the correct one now, and many thanks. smile

I am just trying to understand these. Whether or not I can remember is a different story.

So, Dave's observation is my question. "The #70-9711 being larger in diameter, it seems like it's going to be a bugger to keep in the groove on reassembly,"

So, it seems that the correct one does not seat perfectly in the groove, unless it finds its way there under use. Maybe it is not supposed to be in the groove. So why not? And then why the groove? Maybe the groove is just there to keep an o-ring from migrating past it, and inboard into the intake?

There seems to be more than what meets the eye or is intuitively obvious to the unintiated.

The one on the far left could be seen to fit entirely into the groove and so it seems logical that some would find that one and use it, but it is wrong.

I need a story.
_________________________
Bob

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#283931 - 11/14/09 6:10 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: btour]
Dave Affleck Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Utah
I can say, that had I not read this thread and known any differently, I wouldn't even be considering to use the new "thick" ring, the one in the middle. I'd have used the thinner ring on the far right. It sits nicely in the groove. The new thicker one, in the middle, just doesn't fit the groove - the ring is too large in diameter.

Actually, my real first thought and I may end up going this way, is to simply reuse the original. It's got the thick cross section, but also is the proper diameter and fits in the groove. It's a bit flattened, but still reuseable I think.

- Dave
_________________________
1977 T140V Silver Jubilee
1970 T120RT

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#283936 - 11/14/09 6:46 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: Dave Affleck]
John Healy Online   content


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 8422
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Dave the only difference between the "O" ring you took out of the bike and the replacement is time and heat.

Once the new one is installed it will quickly conform to the groove cut in the carburetor and look and work just like the one you took out. These are the same "O" rings used by Triumph and supplied as spare parts... The observation then was the same as yours: This can't be right, but it was.

If you choose to use the small 622/101, the thinner "O" ring, you would be wise to use a thin phenolic (heat insulating) block. These phenolic heat insulating blocks are common on Norton models, and Triumph used a similar block, albeit made from asbestos, on earlier models.

The thick "O" ring was to isolate the carburetor from vibrations and heat. At least the phenolic block will stop the carburetor from soaking up engine heat. They do nothing to stop vibration.
_________________________
"Don't just teach your children to read. Teach them to question what they read." George Carlin

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#283939 - 11/14/09 7:10 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: John Healy]
btour Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 3494
Loc: Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: John Healy
Dave the only difference between the "O" ring you took out of the bike and the replacement is time and heat.

Once the new one is installed it will quickly conform to the groove cut in the carburetor and look and work just like the one you took out.
.

Short story there.

Originally Posted By: John Healy
The observation then was the same as yours: This can't be right, but it was.


Maybe there is a story there?

Dave, if you are like me, you will freak a bit when installing. The ring will go all squiggly wiggly and out of "round" shape, and refuse to sit in the groove. One must trust it will shape over time.

This may be harder if one has seen what happens to some o-rings with modern gas. Like the throttle body 0-ring of my Chevy blazer which explodes in size when removed, like on of those old time pellets that we kids lit to become "snakes".
_________________________
Bob

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#283967 - 11/14/09 10:12 pm Re: How tight to tighten Amal mounting bolts [Re: btour]
Dave Affleck Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Utah
Thank you John. I kinda suspected as much. I'll use the new 70-9711 rings.

And Bob, yes, I'll "freak a bit" when installing <grin>.

- Dave
_________________________
1977 T140V Silver Jubilee
1970 T120RT

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