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Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? #276051
09/23/09 3:11 pm
09/23/09 3:11 pm
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,098
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Matthew in TO Offline OP
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Matthew in TO  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,098
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I see that British Cycle Supply sells a primary belt drive kit for 500cc unit bikes. What is the benefit of a belt drive? On 1970 and older T100 machines IIRC the engine has a breather line into the primary, and thus wouldn't that foul the belt?

My 1969 motor does not have breather tube, but I'm not convinced that the oil seal at the end of the crank can keep all the oil completely out of the primary case.

So, what's the benefit of the belt drive for T100s?


1982 Suzuki GS650G
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Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Matthew in TO] #276060
09/23/09 6:28 pm
09/23/09 6:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 186
Berkeley, Ca. USA
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ACWilkins Offline
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As far as I can see, the primary benefit accrues to the maker and dealer of the drive assembly- they will have more money...LOL...while you're at it maybe you should throw even more
$ at "fixing" all the other perceived faults of the T100. Withe enough time and money you could turn it into a new Ducati (LOL)Alan T100R

Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Matthew in TO] #276115
09/24/09 6:48 am
09/24/09 6:48 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Kent UK
Well, it is largely a matter of choice. I can't really comment about a T100, but on my late T140 the advantages are; dry clutch, no tensioner maintenance, no oil leaks, no clutch particles in the engine oil, quiet & lighter operation (due to dry clutch).
Disadvantages; air-flowing holes in cover (only a problem when cleaning and if you ride a lot in the rain), rethink on breather necessary, sounds like a Ducati with the clutch pulled in and finally you can expect abuse from the 'change challenged' on this forum.

My only advice is think it through and get a good one - don't listen to salesmen or people that already have one (they just may be biased) wink

Necessary? No. Interesting? Yes.

I'm aware that most of the above reasons don't even apply to your bike, but as nobody else was coming forward....

Good luck!

Blapper redwine

Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Blapper] #276118
09/24/09 7:38 am
09/24/09 7:38 am
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
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Wilfred Online content
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I guess I am change challenged. If I wanted to, I could go out and buy a new bike, but I don't want to. On my 66, 67 and 68 engines, I have no clutch particles in engine oil, have no difficulty adjusting the tensioner, have no oil leaks with careful gasket making and installation, have no problem riding in the rain, and, quite frankly, am quite happy with things as they are and were meant to be....and the price of all the "improvements" that I could buy will take me many happy miles on my old fashioned fault ridden but has never let me down T100. If I wasn't so old and happy with riding an old bike as it was meant to be ridden, I'd be too paranoid to leave the blinking driveway. Gotta get on with it. Cheers, Wilf.


"It's about the ride..."
Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Wilfred] #276122
09/24/09 8:52 am
09/24/09 8:52 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Kent UK
Ah Wilfred, but if all of the parts in your original clutch are f'd the price difference then becomes tiny. Also, if you read what I wrote:

Quote:
can't really comment about a T100, but on my late T140 the advantages are; dry clutch, no tensioner maintenance, no oil leaks, no clutch particles in the engine oil, quiet & lighter operation (due to dry clutch).


And this:

Quote:
If I wasn't so old and happy with riding an old bike as it was meant to be ridden, I'd be too paranoid to leave the blinking driveway. Gotta get on with it.


Needs some clarification as ah dunnunnerstan wot point you are making as the changes I have made to mine do not change how I ride it confused

Blapper redwine

Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Blapper] #276124
09/24/09 9:30 am
09/24/09 9:30 am
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 221
Greenock, Scotland
G
gearhead1951 Offline
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If you can get past his crankyness , search up BDM's comments about belt drives ! He makes a lot of sense and takes no prisoners !

If you dont want a belt then dont get one ! Yes they are expensive , but as Blapper said replacing an existing clutch aint much cheaper and a belt does have a few advantages over a chain ! Think , if you pop a chain you can recieve hellacious damage to th' whole left side of yer engine (not to mention yer leg) ! Pop a belt and th' most damagin' thing is that you lose power to th' rear wheel and over rev th' engine

Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: gearhead1951] #276139
09/24/09 12:36 pm
09/24/09 12:36 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 743
Reading UK
twinspin Offline
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You would have to take the engine sprocket off to replace with a 'pulley wheel' if you were going to change to a belt and this would be an excellent opportunity to replace the oil seal at the crankshaft if it has seen better days.
If your clutch is in reasonable condition and everything else is ok I think it is hardly worth the expense.
I've not heard of a 500 primary chain breaking by the way but someone is bound to have a different story.


1971 T100R
1970 T120
Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: twinspin] #276154
09/24/09 1:52 pm
09/24/09 1:52 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
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melbourne, australia
FWIW on a T100 I would stick with the chain. I (meaning ex wife) had a 69 T100c that was stock. She rode it about 5 times in 3 years. I rode it to work heaps and heaps in all conditions. I eventually cleaned up the inlet ports, fitted a 28 mm Mk 1 and put a Boyer on it using the stock coils. It was an absolute ripper of a bike, and in 3 years the only thing that slowed me from getting to work was a loose fuse holder, and I still got there. I thrashed that bike, sometimes for miles in 3rd gear in really strong head winds. The more they revved the smoother they got (to a point). Triumphs won Daytona on chains and they are the same comonents used on the 650's, and they did 100mph laps at the IOM. A slight difference is the smaller sized engine sprocket that may promote chain whip, but a small pulley would do the same. Dont forget the tens of 1000's of miles they do on the road. If you want to brag to blokes whilst showing them a pic of your bike then go for a belt. If you want to actually ride it then pocket your money and enjoy your bike. This is my opinion, you will probably get a few others. Its all up to you!
Cheers, Chris.


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Matthew in TO] #276171
09/24/09 3:42 pm
09/24/09 3:42 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,236
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Posts: 10,236
Scotland
Hi Matthew,

Originally Posted By: Matthew in TO
I'm not convinced that the oil seal at the end of the crank can keep all the oil completely out of the primary case.

Why not? confused Works for everyone else with pre-'70 twins, and it's relatively easy to check - oil entering the primary doesn't go anywhere you can't see it (i.e. over or under the drive side of the bike); take out the chaincase level screw and if loads of oil comes out, the seal's leaking. cry

Originally Posted By: Matthew in TO
So, what's the benefit of the belt drive for T100s?

I'm also in the If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It camp; so, like most of the others, I can't offer specific experience of belt drive on a T100. However, there's much experience with belts on triples where, certainly with T160's, there's long been difficulties with the supply of primary chains:-

1. Depends how well the research has been done. Belts are continuous, so you have to use a commercially-available one. When the engine's cold, the belt has to have exactly the right amount of slack so that, when the engine's warmed up and the crank and clutch centres have moved apart due to expansion, the belt still has exactly the right amount of slack - unlike a chain, you certainly can't use a tensioner on a 'dry' belt.

Dunno about 500's but, certainly on the triples, it's been found that the distance between crank and gearbox shaft centres varies more on individual engines than the tolerance of the belts, sick so pulleys have to be machined (the only way to vary the available slack) for individual engines.

2. Certain belt materials are wrecked by oil. So, if the 500 kit uses a 'dry' belt and that crankshaft oil seal does leak, the belt's mullered before you know it. frown

3.
Originally Posted By: gearhead1951
Pop a belt and th' most damagin' thing is that you lose power to th' rear wheel and over rev th' engine

You'd think so but experience says otherwise.

Firstly here, because belts are made with longitudinal wires, they rarely, if ever, break across - certainly near-litre racing triples making close to 100bhp don't break 'em, so I doubt a single-carb. 500 is going to give one much trouble. wink

However, a known problem is belts splitting longitudinally, bits then sliding off the pulleys and becoming caught between moving and non-moving parts, where the external material is quickly worn off, leaving the wire to do horrendous damage very rapidly. Then, certainly on triples, where you retain chaincase oil (to lubricate the oil pump drive) and the link to the crankcase, small bits of wire end up in the crankcase and are scavenged into the oil, causing appreciable damage. Much of this because even a splitting belt carries on transmitting power so, particularly on a road bike, the owner can be unaware of a problem for many miles. frown

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Stuart] #276186
09/24/09 5:19 pm
09/24/09 5:19 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
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Wilfred Online content
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Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
Blapper. Sorry if it sounded like I was responding to your posting only. I guess my verbal rant was just an expression that proves that we're all a little different in our approach to our passions ( my wife says I am REALLY different ). I enjoy making changes in the same way that they might have been made when the particular motorcycle was made and used, hence my peculiar approach to my C15T project and T100 ISDT project which are being built as they were then and, when finished, will be used with the same limitations, joys and foibles that were probably experienced at the time. Maybe what I really need is a time machine....... Cheers, Wilf


"It's about the ride..."
Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Wilfred] #276198
09/24/09 6:16 pm
09/24/09 6:16 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Kent UK
Wilf, If the bike I bought had been in the condition it was promised to be, I would be happily doing what you are but when a 'stunning' bike turned out to be the basis for a restoration (and grounds for murder), I had a different experience altogether!

Cheers,

Blapper redwine

Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Blapper] #276209
09/24/09 7:34 pm
09/24/09 7:34 pm
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 186
Berkeley, Ca. USA
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ACWilkins Offline
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Berkeley, Ca. USA
The main point of my first post on this topic was that, no matter what the specific component is, whether or not it's suitable for the task it was designed for exists largely in the mind of the observer. Leaving any and all modifications made for racing machines out of discussion changing the primary drive on a T100 would probably be very far down on a list of things to "improve" these bikes. I have a'67 and a '69 T100R and both are mostly standard. I have added external oil filters to both, installed Boyer ignitions and changed both front ends to accommodate 8"TLS front brakes with some stiffer suspension to handle the increase in braking load. When I think about doing more I can't get past the idea that I would be better off just buying a more modern bike. Besides, I like them just the way they are now... FWIW Alan

Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: ACWilkins] #276215
09/24/09 7:45 pm
09/24/09 7:45 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,527
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
JBMorris Offline
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Posts: 1,527
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
[quote]I have added external oil filters to both,/quote]
Any details on your kit?
This is one subject i'm interested in:


. . note the external filter!


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: JBMorris] #276218
09/24/09 7:55 pm
09/24/09 7:55 pm
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 186
Berkeley, Ca. USA
A
ACWilkins Offline
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Berkeley, Ca. USA
Brimor... My installation is kind of different than most shown on this board. I obtained a machined aluminum casting from a company called "V-Twin" and modified it to suit my purpose. I'm using a very short Bosch spin-on can. The assembly mounts on brackets I welded up and tucks under the transmission housing. It does not hang down lower than the swing arm pivot and is barely noticeable unless you are looking for it Fabrication plumbing and installation was quick and easy. There it a snapshot of the completed install on this board search"T100 oil filter" for a variety of this and other snaps HTH Alan P.S. I change the filter at 3000 mi.

Last edited by ACWilkins; 09/24/09 7:57 pm.
Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: ACWilkins] #276222
09/24/09 8:13 pm
09/24/09 8:13 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,527
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
JBMorris Offline
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here it a snapshot of the completed install on this board search"T100 oil filter" for a variety of this and other snaps HTH

Your search for 't100 oil filters' returned 28 results.
. . not even close!


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: JBMorris] #276224
09/24/09 8:24 pm
09/24/09 8:24 pm
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 186
Berkeley, Ca. USA
A
ACWilkins Offline
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Berkeley, Ca. USA
Brimor... try searching "1969 T100C oil filter" date of post is 2/24/09 HTH Alan

Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: ACWilkins] #276227
09/24/09 8:42 pm
09/24/09 8:42 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,527
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
JBMorris Offline
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ACW,
I found it easier searching Your posts, got it!
Matthew in TO, sorry for hijacking your thread.
Good luck with your belt drive kit.


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: JBMorris] #276228
09/24/09 8:53 pm
09/24/09 8:53 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
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Wilfred Online content
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Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
Blapper. That puts a whole new slant on it for all of us to consider. Thanks, Wilf.


"It's about the ride..."
Re: Benefits of belt drive for T100 unit 500s? [Re: Blapper] #276253
09/25/09 12:17 am
09/25/09 12:17 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
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phantom309 Offline
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spfld vt
Blapper , he thinks because he can't see the pieces he has none.LOL.


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