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Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Stuart] #270832
08/18/09 4:30 pm
08/18/09 4:30 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
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Thanks Stuart for the acknowedgment grin

For my further edification I just visited the Gill Website and found this link:

http://www.gill.co.uk/products/digital_ignition/Introduction/spark_ign_index.asp

I thought it to be very informative for layman such as myself. What I learnt (as almost certainly you know already)is that inductive ignition systems (Boyer Power Digital and Pazon Smart-Fire)have the advantage over capaciter based systems for engines in good condition primarily because of longer duration optimum intensity spark and less current draw. Conversly, capaciter based systems Tri Spark and the other Boyer/Pazon systems with a higher intensity spark of shorter duration are better for worn engines where fouling conditions may occur. Further, that the induction energy systems work with low impedance coils (0.75 ohms) compared with capaciter based systems that require higher impedance coils in the range of say 3.75 - 4 ohms.

Very interesting IMHO so thought would pass it on for anyone else's benefit who might be interested.

BTW, I use the Boyer Power Digital system on my total loss system bike and can confirm that it uses very little power. I know - not essential on a road bike that has a charging system. Its always the same "Horses for Courses" grin

Last edited by Britbodger; 08/18/09 4:46 pm.
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Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Britbodger R.I.P.] #270866
08/18/09 8:57 pm
08/18/09 8:57 pm
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 301
Connecticut
maylar Offline
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Connecticut
Originally Posted by Britbodger
For my further edification I just visited the Gill Website and found this link:

http://www.gill.co.uk/products/digital_ignition/Introduction/spark_ign_index.asp

I thought it to be very informative for layman such as myself. What I learnt (as almost certainly you know already)is that inductive ignition systems (Boyer Power Digital and Pazon Smart-Fire)have the advantage over capaciter based systems <snip>


The phrase "Taken with a grain of salt" comes to mind while reading that. The company is obviously biased against CDI, probably because they don't make any. I've seen CDI-generated sparks that reminded me of lightning.




Dave from CT
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: maylar] #270882
08/18/09 10:53 pm
08/18/09 10:53 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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Houston Texas
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Dave,

I wondered what part that you take with a grain of salt? Just curious.

I'm more than willing to learn.

Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Britbodger R.I.P.] #270964
08/19/09 3:22 pm
08/19/09 3:22 pm
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Connecticut
maylar Offline
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The part about CDI only being useful on "cheap 2 strokes". What's "cheap"? In the days of 2 stroke street bikes, CDI was the only way to keep plugs from fouling. It had plenty enough energy to run a Kaw tripple to 8000 rpm. I copied the Kawasaki design and built a CDI for my Norton years ago and it made sparks so intense you could see corona around the plug wires at night.

Single cylinder CDI (2 stroke dirt bikes) uses a timed winding on the alternator to generate the high voltage. No battery power needed, and good reliability.

I just thought their write up was a bit too general.



Dave from CT
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: maylar] #270975
08/19/09 4:28 pm
08/19/09 4:28 pm
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Houston Texas
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Thanks Dave for the explanation,

If you don't mind me saying so though, the Gil articles do, in fact, advocate CDI for engines that experience fouling conditions because of the high intensity spark that CDI produces, however, apparently at the expense of high current draw. The high current draw is, of course, acceptable for bikes with charging systems.

On the other hand, my understanding is that Gil is saying in the case of a clean burning engine, that a high intensity spark isn't really essential. In this regard, an IDI system produces a less intense spark over a longer period with only a fraction of the current draw that the CDI system uses. This is beneficial for total loss systems as used on many 4-stroke competition bikes and is what I use in the form of Boyer's Power Digital system with a Gil coil. Pazon's Smart-Fire is a similar system but employing an equivalent PVL coil.

Anyway the proof is in the pudding. In this regard the Boyer Power Digital system with Gil coil on my Triumph works great and uses very little current!

Malcolm

Last edited by Britbodger; 08/19/09 4:37 pm.
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Britbodger R.I.P.] #270984
08/19/09 5:36 pm
08/19/09 5:36 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 265
The Beach, California
D
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Posts: 265
The Beach, California
I found the article a bit general, too. I believe that the point they made, most emphatically, was that inductive systems produce longer spark duration than that of a CDI system and that was advantageous in the lean burn conditions we encounter with today's fuels and vehicles. All true, but ignores the limitations of inductive systems at high RPMs (coil saturation times) versus the fast rise times for CD based systems. What I didn't see was any mention of the employment of mult-strike technology in modern CDI systems, whereby the short duration of the spark is overcome by an incredibly fast succession of spark pulses that mimic the long duration of inductive systems. This permits an effective long duration spark condition (a shower of sparks, if you will) at low RPMs, that allows the succession of sparks to get reduced in number as RPMs rise. Thank you modern electronics.

We all know the limits of points... higher RPMs lead to shorter dwell time (time, not angle) and eventually points will bounce and float. I infrequently ride in those regions (pretty much never, now), so I still run points on my bikes (except for the mag pre-unit). I do that for the same reason I run steel rims and drum brakes... they are original and work (sorta'). Newer is better, no question, but I don't mind the maintenance required for points. It takes only a moment or two if you have set up for it and I do it when I am changing oil, which is frequently. I kinda' enjoy the process. Yes, on long rides over 500 miles I carry a spare set of points as I always have, but I have never had to use them in the last 50 years or so... which is why I carry them! I even have one bike fitted out with spare spark plug holders, but it is just for show.

Don

Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Duke Of Oil] #270992
08/19/09 6:06 pm
08/19/09 6:06 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,290
Hamilton, Mass. USA
D
Dave Comeau Online content
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Hamilton, Mass. USA
What is this Boyer Power Digital?
I only know of micro power (short dwell) or micro digital (long dwell).


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Duke Of Oil] #270994
08/19/09 6:08 pm
08/19/09 6:08 pm
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Houston Texas
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Don,

I read just that in another article that I found on the internet. I wonder if thats the technology that Boyer uses in their Power Digital System and Pazon in their Smart-Fire System...?

I do find that if I kick over the engine slowly with the plugs out that they will spark continuously whereas if I kick it over faster this doesn't happen. Is this a clue?

BTW the battery is fully charged and all connections are good.

Regards,

Malcolm


Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Dave Comeau] #270996
08/19/09 6:13 pm
08/19/09 6:13 pm
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Houston Texas
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Dave,

Actually the full name for the Boyer kit is Micro Power Digital (just looked it up on their website).

Sorry for any confusion.

Regards,

Malcolm

Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Britbodger R.I.P.] #271034
08/19/09 9:44 pm
08/19/09 9:44 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,290
Hamilton, Mass. USA
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Dave Comeau Online content
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Hamilton, Mass. USA
From their website " Micro Digital and Micro Power System"
2 different systems
I did find another area where they blend the names together
I guess they like to confuse their customers by inconsistently naming their products.

It seems if the name has "power" in it, it is the short dwell system.
I'm with you now....
:bigt


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Dave Comeau] #271057
08/19/09 10:57 pm
08/19/09 10:57 pm
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Houston Texas
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Dave,

Now that I'm home just looked on the box that it came in. Says Micro Power Digital right on the box.

beerchug

Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Britbodger R.I.P.] #271069
08/20/09 12:53 am
08/20/09 12:53 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 265
The Beach, California
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Duke Of Oil Offline
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The Beach, California
"I wonder if thats the technology that Boyer uses in their Power Digital System and Pazon in their Smart-Fire System...?"

Malcolm,

To be honest, I have not examined the offerings from Boyer or any of the other Brit Bike EI systems folks for the reasons I stated before. I am not a Luddite (there's your BritIron content), in fact, I make my living from the bleeding edge of the high technology test and measurement industry. I have to confess, though, to a fondness for old stuff as it was, like two-lung John Deere's, tube amplifiers, vinyl records and Catherine Deneuve.

I think your question is best directed to Boyer as to the kind of technology they are employing.

I agree with you and others regarding the rest. For what it is worth, I think that any well designed modern EI system will bring benefits, but whether it is electronic inductive, CDI, or points driven inductive, the first order of business has to be a well sorted out wiring harness with particular attention paid to mechnaical connections and grounding, and with high output systems with current carrying capacity to that system beyond the design of the OEM harness. NONE of them work well with compromised power (it is only a question of degree). They need to be deployed as a matched "System" as well, with well made impedance matched coils (voltage and static resistance really don't mean much). Follow the "recommendation" of the manufacturer for coil types and don't compromise with a make do of existing coils if they are not an optimal match. CDI systems generally require lower resistance coils... again, follow the system maker's recommendation. Quality coils and a high output system call for quality caps and wires for the sparkplugs... leakage with old components compromises what you are trying to achieve. It really needs to be a complete system design to be trouble free out of the box for most. No system componenet is plug and play if what you replaced wasn't the source of the problem in the first place.

But this is why so much beer is sold.

Don

Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Duke Of Oil] #271274
08/21/09 12:11 am
08/21/09 12:11 am
Joined: Aug 2001
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Houston Texas
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Thanks Don,

In support of your comments,I've never experienced failure of electronics system components, and that includes Boyer whether analog or digital. My problems have always be traced to poor wiring connections. Must admit these seem to be much more critical in the case of poorly matched coils as in the case of the Boyer triple 6v coil systems that are marginal at best.

Thanks for the education from yourself as well as Madigan and, of course, Dave Comeau.

And sorry for hi-jacking the thread Brian




Last edited by Britbodger; 08/21/09 12:25 am.
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Britbodger R.I.P.] #271303
08/21/09 4:01 am
08/21/09 4:01 am
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 481
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Offline
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just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
I read just, the first page of this thread, and the last page of the thread. I agree 100% with "Duke Of Oil". Points work, equal to the period specific engines they where designed for and the performance they provide.

I think overall, more time, and money, frustration, (AND FORUM DISCUSSION) has been spent on "fixing" the Boyer, and making it work, than ever could have been spent on maintaining and adjusting points.

Give it up. Boyer is not the Holy Grail. Not gonna change your life (appreciably for the better), or riding experience.

It would be interesting to have 100 BSA motorcycles, 50 with properly adjusted points and 50 with Boyers, and perform a blind fold taste test. (figuratively speaking). I wonder what the results what be?


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: nert] #271311
08/21/09 6:41 am
08/21/09 6:41 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
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Nert. It is not just spark intensity and ease of maintenance which attract us to EI.

When you strobe a contact breaker ignition the AAU looks like a mad woman's breakfast from zero RPM to when the AAU pegs at max advance.

Loading an engine up off the line and through first gear is not where you need that, particularly given variable fuel quality.

I like higher compression ratios in the region of 8.5 to 9:1 as torque and efficiency is increased, pity you if you have soft "Saint" cams, indifferent fuel and later pistons.

Not meaning to disrespect you or your choice of ignition but I built the engine of my TR6 to go a long way and after pissing about with CB ignition I decided that just because I can do CB is no reason to compromise the integrity of the engine.

I had a Boyer analogue and later the Trispak Classic Twin, changed from Boyer 'cause I knew I could sell it and liked the shorter span advance curve of the Trispark.

At 75 MPH up a long main road hill at 3/4 throttle in an Australian summer whilst 300 miles from home I want reliability.

Since I built the engine about 5 yrs back all engine failures have been ignition related.

When first fired up the engine would fail if headlight was switched on, our good Richard Whatley suggested a dedicated engine earth/ground [SPG] which cured that issue.

The next two breakdowns were both the result of poor quality wet batteries, both failures quite abrupt and I was fortunate that good people were able to assist.

A good battery now has eliminated that issue, in any case the Trispark would have got me to civilisation at the 10V available but I was using the Boyer on those occasions.

CB timing variations between servicing are almost universally caused by reductions in gap and that is manageable unless you are using breakers where the cam bearing heel is made of crap, which is becoming more common.

Currently available condensers are nothing to write home about either and a bad condenser will trash the points in quick time.

Contact breaker ignition certainly remains viable for some [most?] applications as long as good parts are available.





1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Tiger] #271365
08/21/09 2:55 pm
08/21/09 2:55 pm
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Posts: 481
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Offline
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Posts: 481
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
Tiger
you make a good, informed argument.

Is there a system available that does not require 6volt coils, and does not "fail" if the battery is not new, and the alternator upgraded to provide greater current. Does one then become slave to a growing list of "upgrades"?

I guess i will go back and read the pages in-between 1 and 3.

looking forward to your answer.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: nert] #271398
08/21/09 5:28 pm
08/21/09 5:28 pm
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 626
Western Oregon
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Well, Pazon says their system will work down to 8 volts if I remember right. At that point points ignition doesn't work all that well, either, though if you keep the revs up a bit you can get home.

I filled out the question form on their web site asking if my CBR coils with 2.7 ohms primary resistance will work, but haven't heard back yet. I think I already know the answer; when they SAY 3 - 4.5, it's possible that's what they mean. :-)


Ed
1970 Bonneville
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: enigmaT120] #271493
08/22/09 1:05 pm
08/22/09 1:05 pm
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
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The addition of 6V coils [or a Jap twin lead coil is not a biggie.

However your mention of upgrades does bring charge control to mind.

Using a 40yo Zener diode to protect the battery from overcharging can be risky, if the battery is overcharged [overvoltage] pretty much any EI can be damaged.

Podtronics and similar reg/rectifiers are more reliable.

As with coils the electronic reg/rectifier can be sourced from a trashed Jappa, you are looking for a finned alloy box about 40mm square with 4 wires, two will usually be yellow which is AC from alternator, the other two are regulated DC out.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Tiger] #271498
08/22/09 1:26 pm
08/22/09 1:26 pm
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 301
Connecticut
maylar Offline
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Connecticut
My Boyer worked at 9.5 volts when the rectifier lost a diode. Not well, but it got me home. Newer designs are better, tho I don't have any specs to quote.

Most Brit Bike EI systems are designed for 3 amps of coil current. That means 4 ohms of coil resistance. Either two 2 ohm 6 V coils in series or one 4 ohm 12v coil is ideal.


Dave from CT
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: maylar] #271811
08/24/09 5:23 pm
08/24/09 5:23 pm
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Posts: 626
Western Oregon
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I found a green Dyna, 3.7 ohms, so it will work.

Beware of odd ball rectifyer/regulators; I found one that kept blowing my fuse. It turned out that it grounded through it's case, which would not have been a big deal except that my bike is still positive earth. I have a Sparx unit for now, but I better check to make sure it's still not going over 14.6 volts. Thanks for the reminder Tiger.


Ed
1970 Bonneville
Re: Boyer and coils [Re: Tiger] #271829
08/24/09 6:52 pm
08/24/09 6:52 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,839
British Columbia
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Originally Posted by Tiger
Using a 40yo Zener diode to protect the battery from overcharging can be risky, if the battery is overcharged [overvoltage] pretty much any EI can be damaged.

Podtronics and similar reg/rectifiers are more reliable.


A Podtronics certainly gives better regulation, but the question of reliability won't be known until they've been around for 40 years. I still use a zener on bikes that I only use in town and have never burnt one out.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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