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A65 Valve Clearances #266086
07/21/09 7:27 pm
07/21/09 7:27 pm
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
Ian Clifton Offline OP

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Ian Clifton  Offline OP

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Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
I know the manual says 0.008" for Inlet and 0.010" for Exhaust, but it sures seems 'Clattery' at the top end!! After the extensive re-build I have just performed, I would expect the Engine to seem a little quieter than before (boy was it worn out). Any of you Guys had experience of smaller tappet gaps?


Just a few Beezers.. ☺

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Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Ian Clifton] #266089
07/21/09 7:49 pm
07/21/09 7:49 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL
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Ger B Offline
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Ger B  Offline
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NL
Do not let the clatter noise bother you. I like to hear my tappets so I'm sure my valves are closed when they are supposed to be closed.
I sailed with a diesel engine once where a collegue set the clearance to tight. The damage was 50.000 Dollars worth of damaged turbo charger.
I know your A-65 has no turbocharger, neither has mine, but still I like to know my valves are close.


Ger B

Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Ian Clifton] #266093
07/21/09 7:58 pm
07/21/09 7:58 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 468
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
N
nert Offline
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nert  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 468
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
.008 and .010 is not an unrealistic amount of clearance for an air cooled engine, and when adjusted "properly" should not be excessively offensive by itself. Are the rocker shafts and spindles per spec? Are the spacers, shims and preload springs assembled correctly. Are the pushrod cup ends firmly attached to the pushrod tubes. (i have seen some able to be pulled off.)
Are you sure its valve clatter? Heard at idle, higher RPM, hot/ cold, load. Have you listed with a stethoscope? ALL valves? (1) valve? Piston slap? How much piston clearance you have? Wrist pins fitted properly?
After 500 miles, you will need to re-torque the head and readjust the valves. Good time to reinspect the rockers and related. I usually check clearances before the re-torque as well because i am anal. HAve you accumulated many miles on your rebuild? Was this right from the start? Looking at your list of MC's in the barn, you can not compare this to a 2009 Triumph. The BSA will make some noise. You need to determine if its normal. IF the valves are properly adjusted, and all is properly assembled and to spec., then its probably normal. DO NOT reduce clearance unless you want to flirt with burnt valves.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: nert] #266103
07/21/09 8:42 pm
07/21/09 8:42 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,841
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Lannis  Offline

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Posts: 12,841
Central Virginia
An A65 with its one-piece sound-amplifying valve cover and a small gas tank is always going to make some valve noise.

.008 and .010 valve clearances have a LOT of history behind them. You could open them up a few thousandths and it wouldn't hurt a thing - open them too much and the valve timing will be off and the cam will start "slamming" the valves.

You MIGHT be able to get away with closing them up a little for a miniscule reduction in valve noise. But if, upon reaching operating temperature, you miscalculated or mismeasured even .001" off of your tighter clearance (say .005 instead of .006), and the exhaust valve is not able to make full and tight contact with the head every revolution and transfer its heat to it, then you're going to burn the exhaust valve sure as God made little green apples.

Just not worth it. Not to me anyway, your mileage may differ.

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: nert] #266104
07/21/09 8:44 pm
07/21/09 8:44 pm
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
Ian Clifton Offline OP

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Ian Clifton  Offline OP

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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
Many thanks for your reply Ger. In respect of your answer nert, I started the re-build late last year after running the bike for 6 months with an extremely worn engine. I don't remember the 'top end' sounding as loud as it does now. As far as piston slap etc.. the barrels are re-sleeved to std with BSA NOS pistons fitted. The gudgeon (wrist) pins fit just ok. New rocker shafts fitted etc.. I was very careful during the re-build to ensure all correct procedures were followed. I have only just been running the engine for the last two days after re-building. Maybe I should give more time for bedding in..


Just a few Beezers.. ☺

Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Lannis] #266105
07/21/09 8:48 pm
07/21/09 8:48 pm
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
Ian Clifton Offline OP

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Ian Clifton  Offline OP

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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
[quote=Lannis]An A65 with its one-piece sound-amplifying valve cover and a small gas tank is always going to make some valve noise.

Lannis, I think you may have hit the nail on the head !!! perhaps the above plus some bedding in being required is the cause...


Just a few Beezers.. ☺

Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Ian Clifton] #266126
07/21/09 10:36 pm
07/21/09 10:36 pm
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 75
Brooklyn, NY, USA
jholmes Offline
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Posts: 75
Brooklyn, NY, USA
Hi guys,
This is interesting. Over the years, have pushrods been manufactured in different materials for the A65, both OEM and aftermarket? And then, does that make a difference for rocker clearance? My engine has aluminum alloy (seems like anyhow) pushrods with steel cups on the ends, but I'm certainly not the original owner. Just wondering if it would make a difference how you set the clearance if steel (or other type) pushrods are or have been available?

Also, I saw (heard) a guy on an old vincent the other day, and his bike was WAY more clattery than the A65. Not sure what year or model, but it was more the trailer queen type than my daily rider A65. Man, that thing was clinkin and clankin away. My T-Bolt clicks a bit, but not something I ever thought was unusual, especially not after hearing that thing run.


Cheers!
-Jason
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: jholmes] #266129
07/21/09 11:08 pm
07/21/09 11:08 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 468
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
N
nert Offline
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nert  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 468
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
Originally Posted By: James Holmes
Hi guys,
My engine has aluminum alloy (seems like anyhow) pushrods with steel cups on the ends,

James, I do believe that is the standard for BSA A65l engines.

Rothery35
I'm sorry if i ruffled feathers. (i don't speak well)Just trying to inspire some thought.
I usually kick my re-assemblies over many times with no spark plugs to "squeeze" oil out of the pushrod cups and "centralize" the mechanical forces at hand before i make my final valve clearance adjustment. Then i kick it through some more and check again, before i install the valve cover.
It sounds like you have performed a real nice quality rebuild. Comprehensive, and no cut corners. I am excited for you. Proper break-in is key for long life on these machines. I am sure you will find the Old Brit Iron, fast to becoming a favorite.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: nert] #266141
07/21/09 11:59 pm
07/21/09 11:59 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,537
Auckland NZ
Ignoramus Offline
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Ignoramus  Offline
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Posts: 1,537
Auckland NZ
Rothery, FWIW:
when i got a new toy (M20) the other week the PO told me he had put 50/50 Avgas (propper leaded petrol like A65 was designed to run on) in it.

I figured since I didnt know how old the petrol was i would syphon it out and stick it in the A65...if it was a bit stale i figured the real strong spark on the A65 would burn it anyhow.

FFS!!!! what a diffrence! all the valve rattle practicaly disappeared , you could hear it quietening down as the carbs refilled with real petrol. The diffrence in engine noise was real dramatic!....so was the preformance! (I knew the valves were set right 8/10)

Recon it just shows what we have become used to with THIS SHI* "FUEL".....


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Ignoramus] #266170
07/22/09 1:49 am
07/22/09 1:49 am
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 468
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
N
nert Offline
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nert  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 468
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
what are we supposed to do, buy aviation fuel?
do the additives work?


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: nert] #266192
07/22/09 5:04 am
07/22/09 5:04 am
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,537
Auckland NZ
Ignoramus Offline
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Ignoramus  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,537
Auckland NZ
[quote=nert]what are we supposed to do, buy aviation fuel?


the point i was trying to make is that these bikes were designed for leaded fuel...running them on uleaded CRA* (which is the only practicle option) has consequences like upper cylinder noise.

I guess the additives do some good but how much is the question?


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: nert] #266260
07/22/09 4:59 pm
07/22/09 4:59 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 294
Bethesda, MD
V
Valk Offline
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Valk  Offline
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Posts: 294
Bethesda, MD
So better gas can reduce valve noise?? I know it reduces knocking (pinging) - I have to but top shelf Shell or Sunoco in my '56A10 RR or else it pings under load. Didn't have to do that a few years ago...gas quality is getting worse in this respect...

Peter


'56 Road Rocket
'66 Lightningbolt
'98 Valk
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Valk] #266266
07/22/09 5:17 pm
07/22/09 5:17 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,841
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Lannis  Offline

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Posts: 12,841
Central Virginia
I'm not sure that better gas can reduce valve noise, but it can reduce engine noise overall with its smoother burning characteristics, like giving the piston a "push" rather than whacking it with a hammer like 87 octane does, and by reducing any noise associated with "pinking" or "detonation".

A65s definitely run better with 100+ octane fuel, any of them do.

Problem is, it's difficult to obtain avgas, and illegal to burn it in your road-going bike. I'm not a stickler for the law, mind you (the bike I rode to work this morning has an inspection sticker (MOT to the Brits) that's 2 years out of date), but the fact that untaxed fuel isn't legal on the road takes it out of the "long term solutions" for better running.

I just tune my bike (compression, carbs, and ignition advance) for whatever ethanol-diluted crap they sell as fuel these days and put up with the lower power and worse gas mileage.

My Guzzis, with one-piece tin valve covers sticking out in the breeze, make all KINDS of valve clatter. It's how you know the bike is happy!

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: nert] #266280
07/22/09 6:46 pm
07/22/09 6:46 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 110
Northern California
2
2ndchildhood Offline

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2ndchildhood  Offline

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2
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 110
Northern California
Originally Posted By: nert
what are we supposed to do, buy aviation fuel?
do the additives work?


I just posted in another thread that 100 octane racing fuel is available at a few gas stations in CA. That may be true in NJ as well. Do a google search.


-Tony

73 Norton Interstate
72 Triumph T100R
67 BSA 441
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Lannis] #266283
07/22/09 6:52 pm
07/22/09 6:52 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL
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Ger B Offline
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Quote:
one-piece sound-amplifying valve cover and a small gas tank

I like that description of the frying pan size rocker cover.
But the tank wether is the small US-tank or the larger European tank makes no difference, I think. Mine clatters with 4 and 1/2 gallons of ... why don't you fellows use 18 liters... crazy of fuel over it. But the sound changes when the fuel level drops over a longer ride. But I think that's the resonance sound the tank itself makes, and it changes with fuel level.


Ger B

Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Ger B] #266299
07/22/09 8:16 pm
07/22/09 8:16 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 51
sweden
nisse Offline
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nisse  Offline
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Posts: 51
sweden
The various sounds it makes tells me that its happy

when one sound stops then I begin to worry

Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: nisse] #266567
07/24/09 6:26 pm
07/24/09 6:26 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,234
Atlanta, GA USA
S
Semper Gumby Offline
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Semper Gumby  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,234
Atlanta, GA USA
Hi Rothery35,

I'm running both the 71 T'bolt and the 69 A65 Firebird at .006" intake and .008" exhaust and they run fine. I have noticed more valve noise when the bike first starts and the oil is not flowing to the head yet. Also I have noted more clattering when the bike is really hot (after a good thrashing) and the oil is really thin at idle.

Couple of thousand miles on each with out head trouble.

But don't get me started about AMALs and their sinking floats...


Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Semper Gumby] #266580
07/24/09 7:53 pm
07/24/09 7:53 pm
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
Ian Clifton Offline OP

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Ian Clifton  Offline OP

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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
Hi Semper,

Your statement is very interesting. I removed the Rocker Cover when the Engine was hot and re-checked the Valve clearances. It seemed as if they had widened!! I will use your values and report back.. Watch this space..


Just a few Beezers.. ☺

Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Valk] #266581
07/24/09 7:57 pm
07/24/09 7:57 pm
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
Ian Clifton Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Ian Clifton  Offline OP

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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
[quote=Valk]So better gas can reduce valve noise?? I know it reduces knocking (pinging) - I have to but top shelf Shell or Sunoco in my '56A10 RR or else it pings under load. Didn't have to do that a few years ago...gas quality is getting worse in this respect...

BTW Valk, I have being using, what we call in the UK 'Super Un-Leaded' in the A65 with still some 'Pinking' under load...


Just a few Beezers.. ☺

Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Ian Clifton] #266583
07/24/09 8:12 pm
07/24/09 8:12 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,234
Atlanta, GA USA
S
Semper Gumby Offline
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Semper Gumby  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,234
Atlanta, GA USA
Hi Rothery35,

Those are cold clearances. Don't set while hot please.

Plinking under load: Sign of the times...alcohol fuel. I got rid of most of my plinking under load (around 4200 rpms) by richening the needles one notch. This helped a bit. Otherwise I just down shift..

I may try moving the timing more towards 32 degrees max as an experiment but I need a degree wheel first so I can see where it is right now. Curiously the 1971 Thunderbolt runs just fine whith out plinking at all. The 1969 Firebird is the one that "plinks".


Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Semper Gumby] #266587
07/24/09 8:50 pm
07/24/09 8:50 pm
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
Ian Clifton Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Ian Clifton  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 557
Rotherham, UK
Hi Semper,

I only ever adjust them cold. My meaning of "re-checked when hot" was just to observe what had happened to the clearance after getting hot..
Many thanks for your input..


Just a few Beezers.. ☺

Re: A65 Valve Clearances [Re: Ian Clifton] #266615
07/25/09 2:10 am
07/25/09 2:10 am
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 63
Middletown, NY
M
mxman1 Offline
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Posts: 63
Middletown, NY
I know I'll get hounded on this one BUT....back in the day, I would get my 67 Lightning totally warmed up and quickly pop the gas tank and valve cover and set the valves so that there was just the slightest play. Gained a lot of performance doing this. granted, very unorthodox.
Todd


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