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#264553 - 07/13/09 11:37 pm '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable?  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 110
Dave Affleck Offline
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Dave Affleck  Offline
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Utah
The rear brake on my '77 T140V is dragging. Rotor is getting hot, lots of squeaking and sqawking when the rear brake is used.

Can I service the caliper to try and correct this? The calipers I've dealt with in the past, on Jeeps and pickup trucks mostly, if one developed a sticky return like this, I would simply replace the caliper. But, without having actually priced it yet, something tells me that this old Lockheed caliper is going to be very dear to replace.

So, can anyone advise, as to whether there is anything I can try to service this one?

Thanks as always!

- Dave


1977 T140V Silver Jubilee
1970 T120RT
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#264556 - 07/13/09 11:45 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Dave Affleck]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
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Boston, Massachusetts
It is most likely your rear master cylinder. If it is not rusted, it can be rebuilt. Most are rusted! If the master cylinder body rusted inside it is trash!

There are stainless master cylinder kits available from numerous sources. Most of the dealers who advertise on this site can get you all of the bits you require. This includes a caliper rebuild kit and stainless caliper pistons. You should replace the hose while you are at it. These rot with age and can block the flow of brake fluid.

When you get all of the bits make another post and someone will be happy to help you with the bleeding procedure...

To prevent this in the future it is important to flush the system annually!
John


#264569 - 07/14/09 1:10 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: John Healy]  
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Dave Affleck Offline
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Dave Affleck  Offline
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Utah
Thank you John. Annual flushes will be happening!

I just looked, and the master cylinder is actually plastic. At least the reservoir body and parts I can see are. There's a bolt head and washer visible at the bottom of the reservoir, but not a hint of rust anywhere that I can see.

I'll get a caliper rebuild kit ordered and new hose and pads too. And I'll ask the supplier (I've been ordering from Keith Moore) about the master cylinder kit as well.

I had the rear wheel off recently, and believe the brake has been dragging since reassembly (have not been able to really ride it until this afternoon). Might I have reassembled incorrectly to cause this? Or, maybe it was just that I disturbed the assembly for the first time since it left the factory and brought out a bug that was looking for an excuse?

- Dave


1977 T140V Silver Jubilee
1970 T120RT
#264595 - 07/14/09 2:48 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Dave Affleck]  
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Snap50 Offline
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New England
If the mc is original you may not even get it apart, so look into buying a replacement. The rust that they are talking about would be inside so you're not going to see it without dismantling. Mine would not come apart and was a '76. By the way, some will shudder, but the fluid was not changed in close to 30 years and the brakes seemed fine until the mc started leaking.

Last edited by Snap50; 07/14/09 2:49 am.
#264607 - 07/14/09 3:48 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Snap50]  
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T140V-Rich Offline
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I've had those same symptoms before on my '77 T140. I'll cast my vote with the rest, the m/c has gotten air in it somewhere and needs either a rebuild or replacement.

I went ahead and replaced the entire unit en masse, m/c and housing, all in one. New hoses, feed line, etc.

The old mc was done for. I do my utmost to rebuild or rejuvenate any original part. But that cylinder was gone.

The result was the best rear brakes on the bike since my dad bought the bike originally in 1986. (I bought it from him four years later).

HTH

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
#264612 - 07/14/09 4:29 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Dave Affleck]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,217
JubeePrince Online content
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JubeePrince  Online Content

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Originally Posted By: Dave Affleck
I just looked, and the master cylinder is actually plastic. At least the reservoir body and parts I can see are. There's a bolt head and washer visible at the bottom of the reservoir, but not a hint of rust anywhere that I can see.


Yes, Dave, that's the reservoir (under the seat). The master cylinder itself is located under the swingarm on the timing side....the rust will be inside the cylinder (and i'd suspect inside the caliper as well)

HTH,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#264615 - 07/14/09 5:31 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: JubeePrince]  
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DMadigan Online content
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DMadigan  Online Content
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ca, us
You might have moved the brake pedal stop when working on the wheel? Brake dragging can be from a kinked hose, stuck caliper piston or the master piston seal covering the reservoir hole. You might want to find the problem before investing in a rebuild kit. The cylinder is the same as the front master internally. There is a grub (set) screw holding it in the housing. A circlip holds the piston in.

#264618 - 07/14/09 7:00 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: DMadigan]  
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Blapper Offline
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Quote:
To prevent this in the future it is important to flush the system annually!


Or to prevent corrosion, paint damage while doing all that unnecessary work and to prevent doing it again, use DOT 5 (not 5.1) brake fluid as you're going through the whole system.

Oh, and if you use the syringe/backfill method of filling and bleeding, you can rest assured the hole in the master cylinder is uncovered too as otherwise you couldn't fill the reservoir from the caliper end.

BTW you'll probably find a big lump of snot in the caliper which is holding your pistons forward. The calipers are fully rebuildable, but the little seal shields are very soft so there is a GOOD chance you will distort and ruin them if you aren't careful.

Lots has been written here and on the Brit Bikes in General forum about all this, do a search and have a read first is good advice.

Good luck!

Blapper redwine

#264644 - 07/14/09 12:14 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Blapper]  
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: Blapper
to prevent corrosion, paint damage while doing all that unnecessary work and to prevent doing it again, use DOT 5

bigt

Something else I do is fill the rubber 'boot', that the threaded actuating rod protrudes through, with grease; otherwise, it will inevitably fill up with condensation, washing water, road spray and rain, which will cause the end plug in the master cylinder to corrode again. frown

Originally Posted By: Blapper
if you use the syringe/backfill method of filling and bleeding, you can rest assured the hole in the master cylinder is uncovered

You can also rest assured it's uncovered if you follow the latest AP Lockheed master cylinder adjustment instructions (not the ones in even the Triumph workshop manual, never mind a 'Heinous'). wink

Hth.

Regards,

#264649 - 07/14/09 12:42 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Stuart]  
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Dave Affleck Offline
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Utah
All the input is very much appreciated. And yeah, I no sooner posted that all I saw was plastic, than I actually started "looking" and found the actual cylinder. My ability to overlook the obvious never fails to astound <grin>.

Will do some more searching and reading, start taking things apart and update as I go. And of course, ask more questions too - never heard of the syringe/backfill method mentioned.

- Dave


1977 T140V Silver Jubilee
1970 T120RT
#264665 - 07/14/09 1:58 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Dave Affleck]  
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T140V-Rich Offline
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Sunny South Carolina, (US)
Dave, I did the syringe method when I replaced my cylinder. I think I found a syringe in the auto section at Wally World. With that and a bit of hose that fits snugly over the syringe and bleed screw, it refilled nicely. I refilled the entire system with brake fluid from the syringe, which ensured there was no air. Simply tighten the bleed screw when you refill the syrgine and go at it again.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
#264690 - 07/14/09 3:26 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: T140V-Rich]  
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Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Kent UK
You will need to buy a new nipple for the caliper anyway by now, so drill a 3/32" hole through the old one and use it to fit the tube from the syringe to. You then can pump the syringe back out to check the air is out. Keep the syringe plunger up while you do this. The volume of the syringe will need to be big so you backfill the reservoir from below then pump it back down to the minimum line and wait a bit for the air to percolate to the top of the syringe and back fill vigorously again. Repeat until no air can be seen.

Blapper redwine

#264723 - 07/14/09 5:35 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Blapper]  
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Coco Offline
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Coco  Offline
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Regina Sk, Canada
Veterinary supply shops carry very large syringes (think horses) and will be large enough to hold a lot of brake fluid to really get the air out of your lines.


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
#264725 - 07/14/09 5:42 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Coco]  
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JBMorris Online content
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JBMorris  Online Content
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Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Here's a link you may find interesting.

http://www.brakebleeder.com/about_us.php


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
#264731 - 07/14/09 6:24 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: JBMorris]  
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Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Kent UK
Coco: That is exactly where I got mine.

Blapper redwine

#265175 - 07/16/09 8:55 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Blapper]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 110
Dave Affleck Offline
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Dave Affleck  Offline
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Utah
Just a brief update. I got the full rear hydraulic system removed from the bike last night. Getting ready to leave on a fishing trip shortly, but had a few minutes, so I just went ahead and removed the MC from the bracket, which required drilling out the grub screw (easy).

The MC is totally shot. Heavily rusted. Deeply pitted. Pretty much as expected.

New stainless MC is ordered. Will swap out hoses and rebuild/service the caliper too. New EBC pads will go in during reassembly as well.

Will continue to update as I go. Won't get to it again for a few days, but hoping that stripping the caliper goes smooth.

- Dave


1977 T140V Silver Jubilee
1970 T120RT
#265233 - 07/17/09 3:10 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Dave Affleck]  
Joined: Jun 2002
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Dave,

Originally Posted By: Dave Affleck
Will swap out hoses

If you're going to do that, have you considered junking the entire mess of rubber hose, lines and eyebolt, and that Mickey Mouse brakelight switch, in favour of a single Goodridge hose?

Goodridge do a what they term a 'Banjo 90 degree Extended Neck' (part number 5099-03C in stainless); this particular banjo takes the hose along the same line as the bolt rather than the usual 90 degrees to the bolt. Use this with a banjo bolt incorporating a pressure switch (BL775-03C) into the master cylinder, then just a single length of braided hose straight to the caliper. At the caliper, you can attach the hose with a 'normal' banjo (5091-03C) and bolt, unless you want to use the chromed caliper cover, in which case you need a '90 degree Forged Female Concave Seat' (6090-03C) or '90 degree Swept Tube Female Concave Seat' (6091-03C) and an 'Equal Male' adapter (AN815-03C). Goodridge downloadable catalogue if you want to look at these parts, and (simple) instructions on how to make your own brake hoses.

Hth, and good fishing. bigt

Regards,

#265247 - 07/17/09 6:16 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Stuart]  
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Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Kent UK
.....and if you ignore the recommmended length for the hose and buy on custom length, you will get larger radii and less stress caused by suspension travel. Before and after of the hoses:



]

Blapper redwine

Last edited by Blapper; 07/17/09 9:29 pm. Reason: wrong snap!
#265304 - 07/17/09 2:21 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Blapper]  
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Jack Adams Offline
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Jack Adams  Offline
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Noblesville, IN
Wow Blapper, I would have never thought that a simple custom hose could make such a difference! I don't know how well it will work, but it sure changes the look! Jack

#265328 - 07/17/09 4:27 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Blapper]  
Joined: Jun 2002
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Blapper,

Originally Posted By: Blapper
ignore the recommmended length for the hose and buy on custom length,

Well, yeah ... would not the 'recommended length' be simply to replace the standard rubber hose?

Otoh, as you've done, I've put one piece of flexible hose from the master cylinder straight to the caliper. Only difference is, I suspect, where you've used a 'normal' banjo at the master cylinder, so the line of the hose is at an angle (90 degrees?) to the line of the cylinder and bolt, the Goodridge 5099-03C Banjo 90 degree Extended Neck I suggested, on the master cylinder, starts the line of the hose parallel to (but just below) that of the cylinder and bolt. From there it curves downwards to a 90-degree junction (either by 'normal' banjo and bolt or the Equal Male and one of the Female fittings) at the caliper. With this arrangement, the hose doesn't project below the lowest point of the caliper.

To work out the required length of hose, I simply disconnected the chain and pulled the wheel back as far as it'd go, assembled the fittings loosely on master cylinder and caliper, then just measured and cut the hose to fit, ensuring there was a little extra in the curve. As long as you use the natural curve of the hose, it simply curves upwards when the wheel's pushed forwards again to reconnect the chain.

Unfortunately, I don't have a photobucket account, or I'd publish some photos., and it seems a faff to set up an account just for a couple of photos. However, if you want to have a look, I'm happy to e-mail 'em to you and, if you wish, you can publish 'em in your account?

Hth.

Regards,

#265334 - 07/17/09 4:56 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Stuart]  
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SBoyd Offline
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SBoyd  Offline
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Hi Stuart
I tried to send you a pm to ask for those photos, but I get the following message:
"This user is over their Private Topic limit"
Wow
you must be very popular
I get about one pm per year.

>>steve


Stop the insanity.
#265383 - 07/17/09 8:06 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: SBoyd]  
Joined: Nov 2005
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JubeePrince Online content
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JubeePrince  Online Content

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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted By: SBoyd

"This user is over their Private Topic limit"
Wow
you must be very popular
I get about one pm per year.


Steve,

Nah....he just gets alot of spam!! laughing

OTOH, I believe the standard message allotment is 10, but if you make a donation to Morgan for the site, you get upped to 25!! wink


Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#265405 - 07/17/09 9:22 pm Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: JubeePrince]  
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Posts: 4,542
Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Kent UK
Jack:

Whoops! I'll just change that snap LOL! Drunk in charge of a mouse!

Hi Stuart,

The 'recommended' length I referred to was recommended by Trevor when he ran LP Williams was to form an 's' which, he said is what he had sold squillions of. I came up with a plan using different fittings and a different length which gives me very little movement close to the fittings when the suspension deflects.

Can you see enough from the (first) snap? The fitting is actually more than 90, kicking the hose forward a little which reduces stress better.

Blapper redwine

#265748 - 07/20/09 12:55 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Blapper]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 110
Dave Affleck Offline
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Dave Affleck  Offline
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Posts: 110
Utah
A question about stripping and servicing the caliper?

The shop manual warns explicitly against removing the bridge bolts and separating the halves.

It's very tempting to ignore that though. It just looks like it would be SOOooooo much easier to service by separating the halves.

For you who have rebuilt your calipers, did you in fact NOT remove the bridge bolts to do it?

- Dave


1977 T140V Silver Jubilee
1970 T120RT
#265759 - 07/20/09 2:20 am Re: '77 T140 rear disc caliper - serviceable? [Re: Dave Affleck]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,217
JubeePrince Online content
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JubeePrince  Online Content

Life member

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Posts: 7,217
Back on the mainland!
Dave -

I removed mine....the AP Lockheed service manual recommends you replace these bolts if you separate them (they are special high-tensile bolts), but I did not....just retorque to spec with a dab of blue loc-tite....trouble-free since rebuilding about 5-6 years ago....

I also found it much easier to replace the caliper seals and piston dust excluders with the caliper separated....don't forget to renew the rubber seal for the brake fluid pathway in the caliper halves

Send me a PM with your email and I'll send you a copy of the Lockheed manual....

HTH,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
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