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HELP FIRST BSA #26446
06/22/07 12:36 am
06/22/07 12:36 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
I am working on a 67 bsa 650 lightning , and i got the wiring diagram , for the Boyer ignition system off of this site . I do not understand how the coils know when to fire when they share a common circuit . I got the bike running just fine with the wiring hooked up the way it is supposed to be, then it just started back firing on the left bank . I checked the spark , and when you kick it over , it seems like the ignition , is discharging the coil , rather then firing in pulses . The spark keeps going for a long period , even while kicking slow. The seal behind the advance is leaking oil , could this be affecting the plate ?. I hooked it up as follows white wire ignition switch , black wire coil neg ,red wire coil pos. , and looped to batt. pos .b/y b/w to pick up plate . if the red and black wires go to the coils , how do they fire each bank seperately , i would think it would fire both at the same time . I aslo need help with sumping, yet a whole nother subject .

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Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26447
06/22/07 1:50 am
06/22/07 1:50 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,224
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Online content
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,224
North Georgia, USA
Jon -
You are correct, both plugs fire at the same time even though only one cylinder has fuel in it at a time. This keeps the system very simple. BMW twins have run this way for years.

Oil and water will not have a big effect on the firing, since it is done by magnetic prox triggers rather than points. Still, after you get it running you can look into getting a new oil seal. However, it's fine for now.

At some point you'll have to finalize the timing with a strobe lamp at 5000 RPM. This is going to be a bit of an ordeal on a 1967 model since they weren't set up for this. You may be able to strobe the crank through the small D-shaped plate on the very front of the engine... after all the oil is removed.

Highly suggest you connect your bike to a new or known good battery, even if it's temporarily the one from your car, because the Boyer MUST have a good supply of 12V or it starts misbehaving and "popping". NOTE: As stock, these bikes were Positive going to the RED ground wires.

All BSAs will collect their oil in the bottom end after long storage. This is natural and should NOT require any attention unless after you start riding the beast it starts doing it weekly. But for now it is enough to simply drain the sump.

Highly suggest you read my tech article on "Starting Old Bikes" on GABMA to further save yourself some frustration and money.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26448
06/22/07 2:21 am
06/22/07 2:21 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,936
Maryland
JD Offline

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline

Moto-Amish
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,936
Maryland
And get yourself a parts and service manual. It will save you SO much trouble in the long run. I have a pdf of the 1967 parts manual. If you want it for free, pm me. However, I don't have the service manual. And here\'s a link to Whatley's webpage on cranking old bikes.


Josh
Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26449
06/22/07 4:44 am
06/22/07 4:44 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
thanks for the info , i have an old clymer manual but it is lacks a lot of info . how can i set the Boyer pick up plate for initial start up . I fired up the beast this morning , then i noticed it popping on the left bank, tried to take it for a quick spin , and it just wound down like it lost power . Now all it will do is pop a couple of times , and the nothing . i still have spark , and i can kick it till the plugs are wet . this a65l has been converted to a transisterized voltage regulator , another item i know nothing about . can i disconnect the batt. and check the voltage from the mag. while kicking it . i tried to start again a few minutes ago , and it back fired through the left carb . timing? tight valve? by the way what is the correct valve lash . my book says .002 and .004 .

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26450
06/22/07 12:27 pm
06/22/07 12:27 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,224
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Online content
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,224
North Georgia, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by RF Whatley:
At some point you'll have to finalize the timing with a strobe lamp at 5000 RPM.
Jon -
A very big and very common mistake. The initial setting of the Boyer (instructions for which can be had on-line from a number of suppliers) is for start-up only.... not riding around. Again, cranking only. This allows you to get it running so you can use a strobe timing lamp to finish the setting. If you try to ride the bike on the initial setting, then you run the risk of engine damage. The ignition timing is NOT set until you strobe time the engine at 5000 RPM. So it's only natural the bike ran rough, you haven't set the ignition timing yet.

Once the timing is set, then you can start cleaning and fine tuning the carbs and a host of other issues.

Your plugs (NGK B7ES) and ALL the fuel needs to be brand new, too.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26451
06/23/07 2:32 am
06/23/07 2:32 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
The plate was set just fine , i am just wondering if there is a way to see if the timning has slipped from its original position , i checked the battery it only has 11.8 volts i am charging it , and will see if it fires . It could be low voltage as you previously mentioned , that was the one thing i did not check , THANKS AGAIN

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26452
06/23/07 3:18 am
06/23/07 3:18 am
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 681
S.W. Pa.
breeze1954 Offline
Private sponsor
breeze1954  Offline
Private sponsor
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 681
S.W. Pa.
JON,
Most of those new magic boxes and electronic ignition like resistor plugs or caps. Thats may not a problem now but could be later. BTW your valves should be .008-IN and .010-EX. Good luck.
beerchug


Nothing ticks you off more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong!

Ride Safe When You Can; Tim

Small print Disclaimer: I am not responsible for spelling, grammar or political correctness. Actually Im not very responsible at all!
Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26453
06/24/07 3:24 am
06/24/07 3:24 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
Can any one tell me how to check the current , coming from the mag. , I charged the batt. , and I started with 13.25 volts , off the charger . I dropped the batt. in and the bike fired right up . It ran for about 30 seconnds , and just died . kick it over , and it tried to fire and then it was dead . I checked the batt. again and it was now down to 11.08 volts . I think the bike is trying to run off the battery alone . Unfourtanely the bike has the transiterized voltage regulator conversion , and it was on the bike when purchased . If I had a wiring diagram it would help me , can the mag be tested with out the rectifire ??? help

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26454
06/24/07 9:59 am
06/24/07 9:59 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,377
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,377
Scotland
A fully charged battery supplying power to a Boyer but with no lights on should run for 2/3 hours at least, you have a duff battery or a short which is draining the battery very quickly.

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26455
06/25/07 1:34 pm
06/25/07 1:34 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 406
Chelmsford MA
M
MarcB Offline
BritBike Forum member
MarcB  Offline
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M
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 406
Chelmsford MA
Do you have an inline fuse? If so, check that it's rated for 30amps. If not, I'd suggest putting one in.

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26456
06/29/07 3:09 am
06/29/07 3:09 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
I finaly got a couple of minutes of free time , and threw a new battery in the bike . I got it to fire ,and i am wondering if it is just a coincidence , that am experencing more than one problem at a time . The left bank is popping , firing through an open exhaust valve . I am getting fire out the left pipe , but have also seen it back fire through the left carb as well . Is it possible that my valves are too tight ? , i can only think of two things that cause that ,timing or valve timing . Now i think also that i am having circuit or needle seat issues on the left side ? , or the spark is dropping out ? . I wish it wasnt converted to Boyer than i could at least see a problem . ANY HELP ???

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26457
06/29/07 3:12 am
06/29/07 3:12 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
I finaly got a couple of minutes of free time , and threw a new battery in the bike . I got it to fire ,and i am wondering if it is just a coincidence , that am experencing more than one problem at a time . The left bank is popping , firing through an open exhaust valve . I am getting fire out the left pipe , but have also seen it back fire through the left carb as well . Is it possible that my valves are too tight ? , i can only think of two things that cause that ,timing or valve timing . Now i think also that i am having circuit or needle seat confused issues on the left side ? , or the spark is dropping out ? . I wish it wasnt converted to Boyer than i could at least see a problem . ANY HELP ???

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26458
06/29/07 3:16 am
06/29/07 3:16 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
marc where is the best place to install a fuse for correct circuit protection . and are you refering to the Boyer , or the main battery lead .

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26459
06/29/07 3:18 am
06/29/07 3:18 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST , DARN NEW GUY !

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26460
06/29/07 3:43 am
06/29/07 3:43 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,936
Maryland
JD Offline

Moto-Amish
JD  Offline

Moto-Amish
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,936
Maryland
Jon, the spitting out the carb is a sign of weakness. I'd screw in the pilot adjustment screw in a bit and give it a go (did you make sure to turn the screw out 1 1/2 turns?). I would take the carb apart, make sure the pilot jet is clear with some compressed air just to rule out that possibility if you still can't get it right. Fire out the pipes looks cool if you ask me...but it sounds like a carb issue. If you are absolutely sure you've tried everything with the carburettor, then you can turn your attention elsewhere. I would go with the easiest fix first, however.


Josh
Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26461
06/29/07 9:57 am
06/29/07 9:57 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,744
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
BritBike Forum member
BSA_WM20  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,744
Sydney Australia
The very best thing you can do is to wire your battery directly to a double blade type gang plug.
Having done this you can then clean & tighten the battery connections and paint them over thus preventing corrosion forever.
One battery problem solved.
From the double plug run some heavy wire to a pair of in line blade fuses which on a 67 will fit nicely next to the battery.
The fact that they are not 100% waterproof is not a problem and blade type fuses give a lot less problems than the glass ones do.
I went one step further & fitted a plug to my battery charger to match the one on the bike so if the battery goes flat you simply unplug the bike & plug in the charger.




Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26462
07/01/07 12:57 am
07/01/07 12:57 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
I am really lost on this bike , since it has the Boyer conv. and a transisterized voltage reg. i dont no how trouble shoot anything . My biggest problem is i can only get it to run for a very short while . I can not keep it running long enough to figure out what is going on . the batt. has one ground wire and three hot , ont to reg. one to coils one to harness not sure where it goes . i did notice that even with the key off the Boyer and the coils are getting hot , now i have no spark . I had it runing yesterday for about a minute and then it just shut off (getting hot)??? . is this bike originally 12 volt system ?? . i dont understand the fact that you are supossed to hook up a hot wire to the batt , and tie the hot from the Boyer to that coil poss. where does the gound wire on the batt. go to . I must have a short ?? . To nice a day not to ride here .

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26463
07/01/07 2:33 am
07/01/07 2:33 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
Does anyone know how to test the Boyer box , with out being hooked up . I checked the magnetic pick up plate , with an ohm meter . grounded to the case i have almost no flucuation while kicking bike over very slow . I would think that you should be able to see no contact , then a good contact , like points opening and closing . since both plugs fire at the same time , how does the pick up plate work ??? . I am not sure because it has two pick ups ??? . Another good question is , does the diode need to be hooked up with the electronic voltage reg. help

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26464
07/04/07 12:45 am
07/04/07 12:45 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
Well its officially dead , went online , and found test procedures , on britcycle.com . I followed the test for the Boyer , and i say it is expired . The question now is that i am replacing it is there a certain ignition i should use . I currently had a micromkIII , and 6v coils . THe left coil has been bouncing on the block and has a damaged area , and i believe it might be worn through . I am going to replace coils as well , should i swap over to the 12v coils , or was there some kind of advantage by using the 6v coils . Less resistance ??? , equals ??? . where is the best place to get good coils , with screw on caps ?? .

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26465
07/04/07 1:43 am
07/04/07 1:43 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,252
arkansas
L
leon bee Offline
BritBike Forum member
leon bee  Offline
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L
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,252
arkansas
You are sticking with electronic? Probably, unless you got the old parts along with the bike. 6 volt coils is what you want. JC Whitney has some cheap coils which have been working fine for me. Or you can use a single dual lead 12 volt coil. I've gotten a couple Dyna coils cheap on eBay. Or many of our favorite parts sellers have a generic 12 volt double coil.

I think you can buy just the Boyer component you need. I haven't, but I know others have bought just the black box.

Also, I've seen the new Sparx electronic ignition on eBay which includes new coils for about the cost of Boyer.

And there is the new Pazon ignition, I haven't seen one of them in person.

Re: HELP FIRST BSA #26466
07/04/07 6:55 pm
07/04/07 6:55 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
JON BRYANT Offline OP
BritBike Forum
JON BRYANT  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 26
OLYMPIA WASH.
There is some really good info on the britcycle.com . It says that not running the diode will burn up the box . the clymer manual i have has a wiring diagram , but it does not make sense with the colors on my bike . It shows the diode wire being brown and blue ?? . the only lead that has a connector on it that large is a large gauge white wire . It looks like it came that way . can anybody send me a wiring diagram for a 67 650 lightning , or refer me to the best place to get one . I think my problem is previous owner changed the wiring , and i am getting somekind of back feed . I need to make sure it is wired correctly before i put on any new parts .


Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 


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