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#262960 - 07/05/09 10:27 am Running In Oil  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 80
encorebill Offline
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encorebill  Offline
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Southampton UK
Not literally I hope!

Just rebuilt engine after piston ring seizure. When it happened was still running in (breaking in)from earlier rebuild which included new barrel and head. Hepolites on standard bore. 72, T120V, Boyer ignition.

Need help on best breaking in oil. In garage have three options see pics. Castrol Classic 20/50, was using that when piston rings seized, Total S40 supplied in bulk by Panther Owners Club for my old M120, and Sikolene Chatsworth 40, heavy duty medium detergent. Or something else? Fitted with T140 paper oil filter conversion.
Any advice appreciated





Tank due back from paint shop next weekend!

Cheers
Bill

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#262971 - 07/05/09 12:19 pm Re: Running In Oil [Re: encorebill]  
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john toghill Offline
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chatham kent UK
Hi Bill,
This is what I'm going to use:-
http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/prodview.asp?idcat=117&idProduct=93
You would need to buy it online, but delivery is quite quick.
Do you know what caused the seizure? It can't have been the oil. Were the ring gaps to tight?
Once mine is run in I'm going to use Morris V-twin 20-50 which has an SF-SG rating and I've checked with them that it's good with wet clutches and flat tappets.
John


the trouble with the world today is apathy; but I don't care.
British Motorcycles, built to last, till worn out.
#263006 - 07/05/09 3:24 pm Re: Running In Oil [Re: john toghill]  
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btour Online content
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btour  Online Content
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Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Oil! Now that is a fighting word. Just kidding. You are lucky you have so many good choices over there. Even that Castrol, says classic, so if may be OK. Use a non detergent. Or maybe low detergent. The idea being to avoid additives which will coat the rings. Some detergents will do that, as that is what they are supposed to do. Coat the rings to protect from carbon forming on them. Use a mono grade. It what was done in England when I bought my bike. They switched to multi after breakin.

You got hepolite pistons with hepolite rings? If so, you are fortunate.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#263065 - 07/05/09 10:02 pm Re: Running In Oil [Re: btour]  
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encorebill Offline
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Southampton UK
Hi John and Bob, thanks for the advice.

I don't know what caused the rings to seize, they were too badly damaged to check the gaps, the other bore came out at about 10 thou. Fact is I'll probably never know for certain, I'll just need to be extra specially careful. This time I got away with it fairly lightly, I just have to make sure there's not a next time!

Happy riding

Bill

#263070 - 07/05/09 10:46 pm Re: Running In Oil [Re: encorebill]  
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L.A.B. Online content
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Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted By: encorebill
Just rebuilt engine after piston ring seizure. When it happened was still running in (breaking in)from earlier rebuild which included new barrel and head. Hepolites on standard bore. 72, T120V, Boyer ignition.


Unless I'm very much mistaken, your bike appears to have a 'high seat' frame and airbox arrangement with the later 'low seat' model cylinder head and manifolds? Which is why the airbox-carb connectors don't look as if they fit properly?

#263120 - 07/06/09 2:43 am Re: Running In Oil [Re: L.A.B.]  
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RF Whatley Online content
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RF Whatley  Online Content
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I'd think you'd always want to use the multi-grade because it lubes better on start-up and any tight places.

You're bike didn't seize due to oil, my friend.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#263134 - 07/06/09 3:25 am Re: Running In Oil [Re: RF Whatley]  
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Terry_tr6 Offline
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Melbourne Fl
like the polished motor mounts! expensive?
other than avoiding synthetics, i wouldn't get too anal about the oil. i was pretty happy running in with my regular winter oil, 10-40 rotella diesel oil and i'd suspect you'd do just fine with what the bike called for, any good 10-50 and don't worry too much about the zinc content. if you're siezing rings you have bigger problems(like maybe the shop doing the machine work?)

#263137 - 07/06/09 3:30 am Re: Running In Oil [Re: Terry_tr6]  
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thirdtriumph Offline
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I'm with RF on both counts. So... what's different that will stop it from happening again?



#263162 - 07/06/09 7:58 am Re: Running In Oil [Re: L.A.B.]  
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encorebill Offline
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encorebill  Offline
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Southampton UK
Hi LAB

if it is as you suggest it left the factory like it as the engine and frame serial numbers match. Date of construction July 1972 and delivered to Alec Bennett's Showrooms in Southampton.

If you know the seat height I'd be interested to measure it.

Bill

#263164 - 07/06/09 8:14 am Re: Running In Oil [Re: encorebill]  
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Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Kent UK
Enc:

Quote:
if it is as you suggest it left the factory like it as the engine and frame serial numbers match. Date of construction July 1972 and delivered to Alec Bennett's Showrooms in Southampton.


That doesn't mean the head hasn't been changed during the last 36 years - unless you bought it new and know it hasn't been changed?

Blapper redwine

#263166 - 07/06/09 8:19 am Re: Running In Oil [Re: RF Whatley]  
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encorebill Offline
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Southampton UK
Thanks, but I never suggested the seize was due to the oil. I just want to make sure I'm using the best oil to ensure optimum running in this time.

As I explained in my previous post, this engine was rebuilt some years ago but never taken on the road although run regularly. This may or may not have had a bearing on what happened. I've checked out what I can short of stripping the crankcases apart.

So you're right, what else has changed to stop it happening again? But the issue is, and this was the point of my original post, what sensible steps can I can I take? None have emerged so far so I have no other option than to try it.

I'll keep you posted

Bill

#263167 - 07/06/09 8:31 am Re: Running In Oil [Re: thirdtriumph]  
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Tiger Offline
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Low detergent oil is good for brief use during running in according to my pet oil Gurus at Penrite.

Ring gaps on the Harris rings I installed 26K miles back were 60% of maximum allowable when fitted and the engine still uses bugger all oil.

Ring gap is only a Bush Mechanics method of gauging ring wear, good digital vernier calipers are cheap these days and radial width comparison is easy.

I the absence of more expensive equipment bore wear is just as easily gauged with a new ring as an old one.

Not sure why Encore's engine nipped up but were I running it in I would use the Castrol Classic, hopefully it is low detergent.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#263190 - 07/06/09 11:35 am Re: Running In Oil [Re: Tiger]  
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Paul744 Offline
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England
I use the Castrol Classic (XL20W/50) in all of our Triumphs, my friends use it in theirs & our local Brit shop sells it to their customers. Plenty of engines have been run in with it without problems. I've heard that it's similar to the GTX that was around when Meriden specified GTX as the recommended oil, but have no way of verifying it. I've also seen on the Net (so it must be true!) that it's an SE oil, so it should have decent levels of ZDDP in it.
I've run my engines for a lot of miles with this oil (and an external filter) and, last time I looked in one, all was good.

Due to the scare stories about cams being wiped with modern oils, I run Castrol Classic in my old yank and, so far, it hasn't wiped any cam lobes (new hydraulic cam/lifters with high opening rates & heavier than stock springs). Using an expensive V8 as a test-bed for the oil I'm running in my Bonnie probably isn't the right way to do things, but I like to think that I've got my priorities correct smile

One thing I do when putting an engine together is to coat the cam lobes & tappets with Crane (or CompCams) cam break-in lube. I then change the oil at 50 miles, 500 miles & 1500 miles (along with the filter) if new rings, etc have been fitted. I then change oil every 1500(ish) miles, the filter every 3000 miles.

I've been running Castrol XL20W/50 for years now and, while lots of people sit down the pub talking about synthetics, semi-synthetics, friction modifiers, detergents, ZDDP, etc, etc, etc, all I worry about is whether any of my oil will appear on the outside of the engine! Been using it long enough to have total confidence in it.
HTH

#263203 - 07/06/09 12:46 pm Re: Running In Oil [Re: Paul744]  
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Tiger Offline
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You are a man after my own heart Paul.

No need for synthetics or other magic in a properly built engine with correct [in my case 1000 mile] oil change intervals.

Do not have blind faith though, watch and listen.

I would love to have the resources to send you a 60L drum of HPR-30, we could be mineral oil zealots togeather.

We ran a Perkins 1006T today at various loads and watched the gauges whilst I throttled it via the fuel rack and my good assistant loaded it via test line ex the pump it was driving.

I generally work in an office but listening to that turbo whistle up was a grinner.

The Perkins had blown a block heater hose and lost coolant, no Murphy gear but it had been shut down before ???.

We had a direct reading oil pressure gauge and a laser guided pyrometer and a radiator sniffing combustion gas device.

Bit sad really. I would have charged $AUlots to change out the powerpack.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#263265 - 07/06/09 5:25 pm Re: Running In Oil [Re: L.A.B.]  
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encorebill Offline
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Southampton UK
LAB,

According to my research the seat of the low height frame model is 31.5 in and 34.5 in for the higher frame.

Mine measures at 31 ins so confirms my original belief this is a low seat model. What other indications suggest to you that this is the higher frame other than the ill fitting rubber connector?

Incidentally two seconds to push the connector groove into the airbox and it fits perfectly as does the other side.

Bill

#263266 - 07/06/09 5:29 pm Re: Running In Oil [Re: Tiger]  
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encorebill Offline
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encorebill  Offline
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Southampton UK
Tiger and Paul,

Thanks for the words of wisdom, I will use the Castrol and change at regular intervals.

Bill

#263274 - 07/06/09 6:26 pm Re: Running In Oil [Re: encorebill]  
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L.A.B. Online content
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Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted By: encorebill
Incidentally two seconds to push the connector groove into the airbox and it fits perfectly as does the other side.


All could be well then Bill,- sorry!
The fit of the connector just didn't look right in the photo.

The low frames started at serial number CG50414, so if your frame has a higher number than that, then it is a low frame model.

Originally Posted By: encorebill
According to my research the seat of the low height frame model is 31.5 in and 34.5 in for the higher frame.


The factory manual for '72 quotes "33 ins." for the seat height, and "31.5 ins" "after engine No. CG50414"

Last edited by L.A.B.; 07/06/09 6:43 pm.

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