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Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: hh] #232055
01/10/09 2:18 am
01/10/09 2:18 am
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 20
Adelaide
Steve Kelly Offline
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Steve Kelly  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 20
Adelaide
hh,

I presume the Analogue systems in question make the advance something like what you suggested by utlising the increasing voltage developed by the magnets and coils as the RPM increses to trigger the spark slightly sooner in the rotation.

I've tested a number of Analogue systems for customers and found varying advance curves as has already been said before.

The worst one I've seen had almost no advance / retard and reached full advance just above idle.

To be fair these are old systems - possibly 20 years old - that were cheap to buy in the first place.

As an aside I've tested 2 RITA systems (again at the request of customers) and both had the same curve which matched pretty closely to what has been published on the web. The later AB11 amp had improved spark duration over the AB5 and looked a nicer part.

By doing the advance / retard digitally things can be vastly improved.

For example the Tri-Spark "Classic Twin" adjusts the timing digitally in 50 RPM increments in a chip and does this on each crank revolution. (I presumme other digital systems would do a similar thing)

With the advance / retard programmed into the chip there is little chance of variation from one unit to the other.

The exact values for the timing we arrived at by dyno in combination with riding and endless trails under different conditions.

As always, happy to hear from you,

Steve from Tri-Spark

www.trispark.com.au





Steve Kelly
www.trispark.com.au
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Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: Steve Kelly] #232065
01/10/09 3:24 am
01/10/09 3:24 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,875
California
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Ron - in California R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,875
California
Gosh, lots of exPURTS in the world..lots of unneeded bells and whilstles too. Currently none of the above named ignitions are "perfect." They all have some form of compromise. Getting full advance at 3,500 rpm's is fine for first gear, do that in top gear uphill and you may just find a nice hole in the piston.

What you want, you can not easily have... that is fact. You want a ton of advance under a light throttle while cruising (for a bit more fuel economy not performance). You want less advance excellerating until you reach X rpm's where you are less likely to detonate. And of course you want a bunch of retard for easy starting. For years, cars accomplished a lot of this with a centrifugal advance combined with a vacuum advance. The vacuum advance quickly retards on throttle opening. Then some of the first electronic ignitions came out, still using the same advance as before. Today you have a computer with a complete feedback system with a knock sensor, so you get the most advance and not burn a piston. Some systems do a LOT more checks with even more sensors.. all of this adds a lot of cost..

It is a LOT safer (especially with the crap we call gas today), to have full advance at a higher rpm, and run just a tad less advance when someone may be tempted to "lug" an engine.

So, yes all the aftermarket ignitions work just dandy... and do not have much differences that are meaningful, just marketing hype, and customer preferences.

Ron

Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: Blapper] #232096
01/10/09 12:19 pm
01/10/09 12:19 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 556
belgium
ludwig Offline
BritBike Forum member
ludwig  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 556
belgium
Ultimately , the correct ignition timing depends on the combustion speed of the mixture , wich is function of many factors .
Any ignition curve that is function of ONLY engine rpm can be no more than a crude compromise .
Even the ' best ' electronic ingitions available for our Brit bikes are stone age technology .

Last edited by ludwig; 01/10/09 12:20 pm.
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: ludwig] #232144
01/10/09 5:22 pm
01/10/09 5:22 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,839
British Columbia
hh Offline
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hh  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,839
British Columbia
Ron and ludwig, you both make valid points (heh, heh) but with a sympathetic operator, a mechanical advance can work quite well. I'd rather have too early an advance like points give in some circumstances, and need to be careful with the throttle in high gear up hills, than to have impeded acceleration in the lower gears when you need more advance for best power. From personal experience, the analog Boyer advance curve is too late for most average road use, but it is a compromise I have learned to live with in order to not need the ongoing maintenance of a twin points setup. On my singles, I have so far stuck with points and been happy with them.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: hh] #232147
01/10/09 5:28 pm
01/10/09 5:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 387
Northern KY
Ron T. in KY Offline
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Ron T. in KY  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 387
Northern KY
Dyno Dave has done a lot of testing and posting of the various ignitions, see link below, He also repairs and will have replacement amplifiers.

http://atlanticgreen.com/bsamain.htm

You can see the curves of points, BB and the Rita...

Nobody mentions Pazon here, and we have had great performance with the Pazon on several race bikes.

Best is going to be a subject choice, since what is best for one will not be best for all...



If you don't like change, you're going to hate extinction...
75' Commando
71' Bonneville
71' BSA Firebird
71' B50 Street tracker
62' BSA A10 Super rocket
60' BSA DBD Goldstar roller
97' Buell S3T
09' KTM 990 Adventure
00' Sherco 2.5
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: Ron T. in KY] #232158
01/10/09 6:10 pm
01/10/09 6:10 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 556
belgium
ludwig Offline
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ludwig  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 556
belgium
I plotted the Pazon Shurefire for Norton commando( black line ) compared to 4 Boyer analog ( courtesy Dynodave )
[Linked Image]

Last edited by ludwig; 01/10/09 7:03 pm.
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: ludwig] #232168
01/10/09 7:51 pm
01/10/09 7:51 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,899
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
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DMadigan  Offline
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D

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,899
ca, us
HH, the advance of the Boyer is not from the speed of the magnetic field, they use a tachometer circuit to change the advance timing. The speed of the pickup magnet comes into effect in the lowest RPM that will trigger the circuit. The pulse output from the pickup is dependant upon the strength of the magnetic field and velocity past the coil. These analog systems are basically exponential since they rely on a capacitor charging/discharging.
With centrifugal advance the best you can do is the maximum advance at each RPM that will cause peak pressure in the cylinder at 10-14 degrees ATDC which is about 5/9 of the combustion process at TDC. Too much advance will cause knock (pinking). Since you are only measuring RPM and not all the other factors that effect combustion you need to be conservative. Using mechanical advance you are limited to only advance with RPM, no plateaus or retard. Electronically this can easily be done. Adding an engine load sensor (vacuum or more crudely, throttle position) you can achive a better response and fuel economy. The electronic systems out there now are essentially only electronic versions of the mechanical setup. I think the Tri-Spark race version allows for some control over the slope of the advance curve.
The crudest ignition is what is used on a lawn mower, none. Next is the old two stroke dirt bikes that switched between full retard and full advance with only a few degrees difference, then the mechanical centrifugal advance, then adding vacuum advance, temperature sensors, altimeter sensors. A reasonably advanced ignition can measure the difference in RPM between each combustion cycle so you can check compression or carburettor syncronization.
Try reading C. Taylor's (MIT Press) books in I.C. engines.

Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: DMadigan] #232200
01/10/09 10:09 pm
01/10/09 10:09 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
Ludwig: Have your corrected Dave's curves to reflect engine rpm, not distributer rpm as his diagrams indicate?

Ditto Dm's remarks (yes the analog has a counting circuit and trigger comes when a diode lets the negative pulse pass into the circuit as the small alternator produces an AC output), but he only barely touched on this subject.

The digital chip used by Boyer (and I am sure similar ones used by Tri-Spark and Pazon) are of a modern automotive design. They have the ability to incorporate many of the features of a modern automobile ignition system. It has been discussed to incorporate some of these features into one of these ignitions, but implementation would not be that easy, connections subject to harsh environment and handling, and the general British dealer and enthusiast barely copes with the analog version.

A few factors about engine ignition advance come to mind and I am sure Dm, Ludwig or Dave can add more.

Mechanical Stuff: Effectiveness of squish bands, combustion chamber design, cylinder bore diameter, number and location of spark plugs, number and location of valves, etc. can effect what timing we choose and at what time.

For example: Both of my 500 and 750 twins use radically different timing depending on whether I am using one or two spark plugs per cylinder. It varies from the high 30's for a single plug to the mid to low 20's for twin plugged. It is because combustion is much slower than speed of the piston as it goes up the bore that we need some spark advance. Adding the second plug speeds the rate of combustion.

With two plugs we ignite both sides of the combustion chamber and the rate of combustion increases. If you are using twin plugs I would advise you have your digital ignition re-programmed to compensate for this.

Physical Stuff: exhaust temperature, ambient air temperature, engine temperature, venturi vacuum, throttle butterfly acceleration, throttle butterfly position, manifold vacuum, air velocity, ambient air temperature, engine load, detonation, type of fuel recommended (type of fuel used), rpm, altitude, cold starting temperatures, compression ratios, dynamic cylinder pressure, cam timing, the strength/intensity of the spark itself, etc, etc. all can be modified or monitored and changes made to the timing by the computer chip.


In the old days (1950's) they used manifold vacuum, venturi vacuum and mechanical weights. With all of our advance in electronic ignitions we haven't reached that level of sophistication yet..

So with our sophisticated digital chip we are left with one input: RPM. This leaves us the ability to, after the motor starts, advance the timing for the first minute or so to help keep the motor from stalling when cold (but with out a motor heat sensor this feature is turned on when the motor is hot or cold) and then retarding it so the bike idles smoothly. From there it is just a matter of programming advance points to produce the "curve" we want.

But all this said, I still would use one of the electronic ignitions available today over the quality of the points that are available today. I thought they were junk 30 years ago, and used Lucas. Now, if you find Lucas points you will find that they started to use these people as their vendor some 15 years ago.

Ok... I have my flame suit on. I think I am going to get it from all sides... Just remember it is only my opinion...

if I have made any factual mistakes it was intentional, but please correct the old guy anyway! Just be kind.
John



Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: John Healy] #232209
01/10/09 11:15 pm
01/10/09 11:15 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,875
California
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Ron - in California R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,875
California
All I can say that if those curves shown above are correct, then there is no real world difference in any of them.. Any difference is likely to be the maker's marketing hype...

Cheers..!

Ron

Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: John Healy] #232217
01/10/09 11:48 pm
01/10/09 11:48 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,899
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,899
ca, us
While I agree that there are wide variations in advance requirements depending upon construction, atmospherics and the like, I disagree that it we have not reached the level of sophistication of the 50's. My own ignition is PC programmable for RPM, vacuum, temperature or anything else I want to add in. If you can point and click a mouse button you can program my ignition to whatever you want, advance, retard or constant with RPM. Different software versions for RPM only or RPM and vacuum or adding a temperature sensor for cold fast idle are either available or can be programmed and can be downloaded by the user. No new box to buy. It can be changed over from fours to triples to twins to singles with software (assuming the box has sufficient coil drivers) and the correct pickup. It has a built in shift light (flash then steady at red line) with programmable RPM limits. One software version connects to the oil pressure switch and if pressure is lost it goes to full retard and flashes the shift light. Depending upon the number of sensors mapped, it can have 16 RPM maps or 8 RPM and 8 vacuum with 4 RPM limits that all can be selected on the fly. The default maps are set by a switch internally. Take off the control/display and your ham fisted friend is stuck with a mild advance and early RPM limit if you want. For racing you can test several maps on the track then set the best as the default.
There are many automotive sensors available, some reasonably cheap. I use the same vacuum sensor as the Megasquirt fuel injection, about $18. A throttle position sensor runs about $36 but one off a late GSXR is probably cheaper. A coolant sensor works for the oil. Nitrous? That is just a simple switch input. There are three kill inputs, connect to B+, connect to ground and disconnect from ground.
A low dropout regulator lets the timing work down to less than 6 volts input. The coil charge time is programmable to work with most any induction coils and if the battery voltage drops below 12 volts the charge time is doubled for better spark. If the engine stops for over 24 seconds the coil power is turned off to prevent battery drain and cooking coils. The pickup board has a timing light so timing can be accurately set statically. The only physical setting in the timing is the advance range which is set by the pickup cup. Full advance or retard can be short changed by the map of course. It just cannot fire outside the window.

Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: DMadigan] #238664
02/19/09 2:16 am
02/19/09 2:16 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
S
Shoshone Offline
BritBike Forum member
Shoshone  Offline
BritBike Forum member
S

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
A sort of on topic question..the magnets on my Boyer rotor are weak, and won't trigger the unit. The ignition passes all the recommended tests except magnet strength. New magnets are 3 1/2 pounds shipped to the USA. Not too expensive, but does anyone have an alternative?

Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: Shoshone] #238669
02/19/09 2:39 am
02/19/09 2:39 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,530
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

Born To Run
JubeePrince  Offline

Born To Run

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,530
Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by Shoshone
The ignition passes all the recommended tests except magnet strength. New magnets are 3 1/2 pounds shipped to the USA. Not too expensive, but does anyone have an alternative?


Huh?!?! Are you talking about the Lucas rotor for the alternator??? I don't know of any Boyer rotor that weigh 3.5 lbs.....and even if they did, there are plenty of places to buy them in the US.....

As for testing, there is an excellent series of step-by-step tests you can view here, courtesy of our own John Healy and RF Whatley.

HTH,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: JubeePrince] #238805
02/19/09 9:37 pm
02/19/09 9:37 pm
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 301
Connecticut
maylar Offline
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maylar  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 301
Connecticut
Originally Posted by JubeePrince
Huh?!?! Are you talking about the Lucas rotor for the alternator??? I don't know of any Boyer rotor that weigh 3.5 lbs.....and even if they did, there are plenty of places to buy them in the US.....

Steve


Umm.. perhaps he means GBP not lbs.


Dave from CT
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: maylar] #238823
02/19/09 10:36 pm
02/19/09 10:36 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,290
Hamilton, Mass. USA
D
Dave Comeau Online content
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Online Content
Crew Chief
D

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,290
Hamilton, Mass. USA
wink
GBP or try (for US keyboard) alt(hold) then 1 5 6 =

http://atlanticgreen.com/ignition.htm


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: maylar] #238845
02/20/09 12:38 am
02/20/09 12:38 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,530
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

Born To Run
JubeePrince  Offline

Born To Run

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,530
Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by maylar

Umm.. perhaps he means GBP not lbs.


Well, color me stup.....yankee!! laughing

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: JubeePrince] #239078
02/21/09 3:17 am
02/21/09 3:17 am
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 71
orofino Idaho
Mike, in Idaho Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mike, in Idaho  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 71
orofino Idaho
I'm using a mechanical advance on my next ignition, using Toyota, GM and Lucas components: [Linked Image]
The reluctor and pickup coil are out of a Toyota 22R distributor,the ignition module is a Wells four pin unit from a Chevrolet HEI distributor. The double-ended ignition coil is from a Pontiac Sunbird.[Linked Image]
The reluctor( with two of the teeth ground off) is a light press fit on the cut-down Lucas points cam, its position will be deteremined by the final position of the pickip coil. One(or maybe two) heavy duty advance springs should get the spark advance in the ballpark. I've built two of these ignitions so far for other machines and they have worked really well I'm eager to see how it will work in My TR6. This wasn't My idea originally, it was cooked up by a guy on the Yamaha 650 list, it's surprising what you can do sometimes with stuff that's just lying around


Mike

My company car is a Kenworth
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: Mike, in Idaho] #258331
06/10/09 1:49 am
06/10/09 1:49 am
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 71
orofino Idaho
Mike, in Idaho Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mike, in Idaho  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 71
orofino Idaho
Well, here is the trigger assembly.[Linked Image]Only took Me four months,at this rate I might get it finished by the time I retire.


Mike

My company car is a Kenworth
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: Mike, in Idaho] #258377
06/10/09 10:39 am
06/10/09 10:39 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
BritBike Forum member
Tiger  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Gosh, lots of exPURTS in the world..lots of unneeded bells and whilstles too. Currently none of the above named ignitions are "perfect." They all have some form of compromise. Getting full advance at 3,500 rpm's is fine for first gear, do that in top gear uphill and you may just find a nice hole in the piston.

We have "management tools" to avoid such, primarily the experienced brain and secondarily the gearbox and throttle !!!

Or do you assume that worst case must apply and Boneheads abound ?



1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: Best electronic ignition [Re: Tiger] #258501
06/10/09 10:03 pm
06/10/09 10:03 pm
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 71
orofino Idaho
Mike, in Idaho Offline
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Mike, in Idaho  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 71
orofino Idaho
I have a new Boyer unit in the bottom drawer of my toolbox, I thought I would build a low-tech, low budget version of it, just for fun. At least I won't have to set points anymore,it makes sparks with the battery as low as nine volts and parts are available at the local car parts store. If I decide I need perfection later I'll go buy a new Honda.


Mike

My company car is a Kenworth
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