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#256958 - 06/02/09 9:37 pm My sidestand is breaking off!  
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Sisyphus Offline
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Maine
Not sure how to proceed here. I noticed after coming out of a friend's house yesterday that the bike was leaning at a rather jaunty angle. So far over that the fuel was leaking out of the LH carb.
I looked today in the daylight, and found this:
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn317/buntline88/FortKnoxetc026.jpg
Another view...

Just to be sure...

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn317/buntline88/FortKnoxetc021.jpg

Hopefully these show up.
I"m unsure how to proceed, apply heat and bend before welding or just weld it up cold? This is on a late model T140.


There is no such thing as a sympathetic vibration.
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#256981 - 06/03/09 12:03 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Sisyphus]  
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jays375 Offline
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pa.
I would grind it out some and weld it up.That way you can grind it down so it clears the stand and have weld left.

#256982 - 06/03/09 12:05 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Sisyphus]  
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KADUTZ Offline
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in my house
This is why one does not start one's Triumph on the sidestand (centerstand starting can be almost the same). If it were me I would pull the engine and take the frame to a certified welder


1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
#256988 - 06/03/09 12:45 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Sisyphus]  
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desco Online content
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Find a welder who will weld it up with the engine in. Pull the gas tank and carbs and drain the oil. You can flop the bike around so he can see what's going on. If he has a lift you can get the front end way up. They have special blankets to protect the shiny parts. I'd live without it if I had to pull the engine.
Your lucky you caught it when you did.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#257048 - 06/03/09 6:23 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: desco]  
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Kia Ora Offline
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Put a tack-weld at each end of the lug,open the crack up with a steel cutting disc,
belt(or tweak}lug to the desired angle.Weld er up.,I used a small mig welder,
Looking at the pics it dont look like the lug has ever been welded,that gap looks too clean,
maybe your model was made like that, my 72 had a full weld along the length.


Kia Ora from down under
#257056 - 06/03/09 7:42 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Kia Ora]  
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Blapper Offline
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What Kadutz said. It will have to be nice welding if it is to work nicely afterwards.

Blapper redwine

#257069 - 06/03/09 10:28 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: KADUTZ]  
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Sisyphus Offline
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Originally Posted By: KADUTZ
This is why one does not start one's Triumph on the sidestand (centerstand starting can be almost the same). If it were me I would pull the engine and take the frame to a certified welder


I'm assuming that you bumpstart your bike, then?


There is no such thing as a sympathetic vibration.
#257076 - 06/03/09 11:33 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Sisyphus]  
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KADUTZ Offline
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in my house
nope start the bike with sidestand & centerstand up then I grab a handful of front brake which stops any roll away and use the kicker. Least ways that how I have done it since my 300 pound gorilla named Bobo died. He used to hold the bike upright and steady for me while I kicked the bike over. Really miss that guy.


1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
#257094 - 06/03/09 1:07 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: KADUTZ]  
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Hi Sisyphus,

I think a welder can mig weld. Little splatter. At least I hope so. I have to have mine welded to. Your break is different than mine. Mine broke where the lug is. There are actually holes in the frame tubes on mine. It leads me to wonder whether they welded the lub on after the engine was in, like what is called a split frame, on Jap bikes.

I admit mine happened because I started it with side stand down. I was told not to, but I had always done so for ever, and no problem. But I had these chaps with zipper towards the center and they caught and I lost my balance and ended up sitting on the kick after the kick.

IMHO the kick stand is a really poorly designed piece. Wicked heavy for being so wimply welded to the frame. Does not lock in place, etc. Now I have to give it Harley on the kick stand. Light and strong, and locks in place when weight is on it.

People who brag about never kicking with the side stand or center stand down, have either never had a bike with a starting problem, or had a trailer handy all the time, or do not ride much, or have long in seams. I do not have any of the above.

And I still do see how kicking with the stand does harm, unless you land on the bike, on the end of the down stroke. Your weight is being applied to the opposite side of the bike, on the kicker. The bike actually becomes more upright with a good thrust. The shock is being buffered by the engine. As far as the foot being on the opposite peg ( if one does that), the weight is actually being lifted from that foot as one descends. One can easily demonstrate this by simply standing on a scale and dropping. The scale will read less weight as you do this.

In other words, I share your pain. Try to find a welder who also rides a bike. He should be able to shield the engine, and mig weld it.

I keep try to think of a way to make the thing adjustable for different heights, but can not. I am definitely going to have a flat piece of stock welded on, so it no longer sinks into the hot asphalt. ARRGGh.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#257097 - 06/03/09 1:20 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: KADUTZ]  
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SBoyd Offline
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Dead wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTF_8QoRoIg

Worse than wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNqomm2wsz0

correct: (but bad bike)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCbOEvGXle0

Keanu Reeves starts his Commando (correctly)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYD2xTLs6Nc


Sorry I'm not helpful with welding itself, but I can say this... Wind up with an angle on that tab that has the bike leaning not so much. That is also accomplished by a good fit between the stand and the lug. The fit is accomplished by welding or brazing to build up metal on the stand and then grinding on the stand clevis until it is a nice slip fit on the lug.

Last edited by SBoyd; 06/03/09 1:33 pm.

Stop the insanity.
#257112 - 06/03/09 2:34 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: SBoyd]  
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btour Online content
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I think they had the apprentice welders, or floor sweepers weld up the side stand.

Yours looks like just a bad weld going south after years. Good thing they did not work on the Alaskan Pipeline.

There are many "simple and elegant solutions" for other problems on our bikes. No one has one for this? Are we so attached to that lump of metal? Is this a hubris of coping with idiot synchronicity thing? Like this side stand makes the thing a Triumph? I love the languid sweep and angle of my bike on its side stand also, but...
Function is important also, and form follows function.

And it is not just starting the thing on the stand. It is slopes, and hills. And who has not had the fat chick start dancing on the bike, because she loves it so much. Quicker than you can blink an eye, she is on it... smile

Adjustablity would be very nice. Sliding wedges? Ratching mechanism? Some sort of screw mechanism. But it can not rattle. Somebody out there must have some solution. We have the technology to send people to the moon, but not correct this side stand?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#257113 - 06/03/09 2:37 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: btour]  
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Oh, and better have him re-weld the little tab where the spring attaches too. Looks like that weld is in recession also.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#257144 - 06/03/09 4:35 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: btour]  
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Sys,

You must have seen a pic of me by now, I weigh just 160lbs and yet I can start any Brit iron EASILY. I can't even say it is something I had to learn, I just do it. Even when I weighted 140lbs as a kid I still did it that way.

My point is not that I am Superman, just that it must be easy.

Blapper redwine

#257153 - 06/03/09 5:36 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Blapper]  
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Hi Blapper,

I challenge you to a bet. Lets reproduce the conditions my bike was in the other night, and without repairing them, get it to start.

My point being that sure when everything is in OK order, starting the thing is fairly easy. But if you ride, then things do not stay OK, and getting it to start to get you home can be a real bear.

I guess what I am trying to say is, your disdaining attitude towards other people who have started their bikes on the sidestand, is kinda grating on my nerves right now. But then again I am having a senior moment of temper tantrum all day today for some unknown reason. smile


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#257184 - 06/03/09 7:41 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: btour]  
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Hi Bob,

Well, I agree you must be having a bad day as I couldn't have written it in a less aggressive way.

If starting the bike is being a real problem, I don't think that it is any easier to start it on the stand (for me, anyway) and that bumping it in second is better. Three kicks should have any bike going which is easy. If you have to do say, half a dozen kicks routinely to get your bike going and you don't fix that, you are just making life hard for yourself.

Hope you find what's biting you. wink Maybe a ride would help?

Blapper redwine

#257187 - 06/03/09 7:48 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: SBoyd]  
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good point on the angle of the kickstand (why is it called a kickstand if not to use it when kick starting??) As things wear and the lean angle gets greater, you put even more stress on the joint. I start off the kickstand but have the bike semi-upright so it bears much less weight. Primarily there to keep the bike from falling over if i lose my balance. Only had to reweld the tab twice in the past 35 years

#257192 - 06/03/09 8:09 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Blapper]  
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Hi Blapper,

I know you did not mean any ill intent. But you mentioned this once before, few moths back, and I felt the same way. So this time I decided to say something.

It is like, as I have been told, kids develop empathy at a certain age, so you can see two kids sitting next to each other, and one is crying and the other is having a great day, without even noticing the other is not. It is not that the kid means any ill intent.

Finding a starting problem, when miles from home, in the dark of night in 32 degree temps is not so easy, especially when the problem is intermittant, and the bike has been starting well all along. I think I know every inch of the hills in that area in a two mile radius, very well.

There are no buddies that time of night. My bike goes where I go, or I stay with it.

Breaking a side stand is bad, but so is dropping the bike and breaking the blinkers, mirrors, maybe clutch lever, bending the foot peg, breaking the rubber, Bending the headlight mounts, maybe denting the head light, well you get the picture.

If that side stand was not down when my chaps caught, that bike would have been on its side, and I would have come down on top of it.

All I am saying is that is just a bad design, plain and simple and should be improved upon.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#257197 - 06/03/09 8:21 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: btour]  
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And anyone else notice that lug? It is really thin, and what kinda steel is that? It has more holes and air in it than wonder bread. Was it made to break? What were they thinking? To break away in case someone started off with it down, like some sort of safety feature?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#257206 - 06/03/09 8:28 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: btour]  
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Blapper Offline
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Terry,

It's called the kick stand because you kick it out...... In England we call it the prop stand.

Quote:
Only had to reweld the tab twice in the past 35 years


Only? Ouch.

Bob,

For me, the time to get the cell phone out and call recovery was before that.

I do, however use the propstand on my RT to act as a security blanket when I move it around as it is soooo heavy that I would rather it caught the bike than the ground did.

Sorry guys, I'm not trying to wind you up here, so I'll quit now.

Blapper redwine

#257225 - 06/03/09 10:59 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Blapper]  
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Well, thanks for all the kind words and interesting debate. To clarify: The bike has always leaned pretty far, further than my liking. Just the other night I was parked in a soft-ish, gravely driveway and the angle coupled with the leaking carb made me look at the next opportunity. So I don't know if it's always been like that or not since I always leave it in my drive on the centerstand, or on the sidestand which is on a 2x4 so it sits more upright.
Anyone who's read any of my previous posts would know for sure that I, like a great many others, have started it on the sidestand. When I bought the bike seven years ago it didn't even have a center stand. That came a few years later. I've tried starting it without either but my legs aren't long enough; the results are comical bordering on dangerous. So I don't do that anymore.
I know a guy who can weld this up for me.
I'm also thinking about a Norton sidestand from Unity Equipe. but at their prices and the exchange rate, I'll probably just have it zapped back together.


There is no such thing as a sympathetic vibration.
#257228 - 06/03/09 11:10 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Blapper]  
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Blap: never heard it called prop stand, but have heard it called side stand a lot. kind of symetrical terminology with center stand.
I thought once every 15 years was rather good. how many other things on a british bike make it thru 15 years before needing some repair work (:>

#257260 - 06/04/09 3:00 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Terry_tr6]  
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Jack Adams Offline
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Terry, my '66 has never had the side stand mount give me any problems. I don't see the logic in using bad technique just because it only breaks every 15 years or so. Jack

#257262 - 06/04/09 3:03 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: Terry_tr6]  
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Sis
IMO this is a safe way, the way the bike shops do it during tune-ups, and the way I do it when walking up to a cold bike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FztFORtfaIk&feature=related

even a tiny person can do it.


Stop the insanity.
#257278 - 06/04/09 7:01 am Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: SBoyd]  
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I am really surprised that no-one advised the obvious. This bike needs a complete new side-stand lug. Maybe JRC still has a few of these. Then it is SWEAT BRAZED on as Turner intended. I never did trust welding on something like this. It will just break again right next to the weld. If it is a good weld at least. A poor one will break right at the weld.
Good luck.
Bill
PS I never could start a bike on the side-stand. Poor co-ordination I suppose. Triumph center stands are built like brick shet houses so by all means start your bike on the center stand. Nortons, on the other hand...

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 06/04/09 6:56 am.

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#257386 - 06/04/09 5:23 pm Re: My sidestand is breaking off! [Re: HawaiianTiger]  
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The worst thing in the photo is the wrong side stand bolt and nut. You must use the oem bolt on any British bike.
We have welded lugs many times with success. But most of the time the motor needs to be removed for access to lug.


Btour, if you think Triumph side stands are poorly designed ever seen a Norton? Now that is the worst of the worst.
Never start bike on side stand it was not designed for that.


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