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stroker cranked Triumph? #245181
03/27/09 2:07 am
03/27/09 2:07 am
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Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
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MarksterTT Offline OP
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I'm looking for info on pros and cons of stroking my street tracker project bike. It's using a TR7 engine with slight hop up work and I wanted to use a 90* crank but lately have been thinking of a stroker for more cubes. I don't want to create a Triumph that needs isolastics and that is my biggest concern, creating an even more vibey bike. Anyone with real world experience on a stroked Triumph? I know that destroking for higher rpm potential would be good for racing but then this is for a torquey street bike that will also go cross country...or how about anyone with a stroked 90* crank? Thanks, Mark

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Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: MarksterTT] #245184
03/27/09 2:35 am
03/27/09 2:35 am
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 411
Columbus, Ohio, 1978 T140E
T
tomterrific Offline
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Columbus, Ohio, 1978 T140E
Dream of using Norton crank throws phased to 90. Ought to get the displacement up to 920cc or something. Might as well throw a MAP alloy 800cc cylinder on top. I'm just empty dreaming for you. I have no idea what an engine like this would feel like.

Tom Graham

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: tomterrific] #245188
03/27/09 2:58 am
03/27/09 2:58 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,113
Noblesville, IN
Jack Adams Offline
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MTT, I've been running a stroked T-140(76mmx88.5mm) on the street since 2002.As most guys know,T-140 's and T-120's just have different power delivery "feels" to them. The stroker feels more like a 650 on steroids. Also it vibrates less than when it was a 750, but then it was balanced by NRE at 85%.I have no regrets and by the way,"roll-ons" are strong. Jack

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: Jack Adams] #245379
03/28/09 7:12 am
03/28/09 7:12 am
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
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MarksterTT Offline OP
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Thanks for input Jack, I was almost hoping someone would say it was much worse on vibes, that way I could cross that idea off my list. I wonder why Nourish makes the stroker 88.5mm as opposed to 89mm, any ideas there? Strong roll-ons and 650 on steroids sounds good to me.

TomT...90* long rod stroker sounds like the best of both worlds, I know there are a few out there running them, I was hoping to hear from one to see what they think of their set up..Mark

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: MarksterTT] #245392
03/28/09 11:59 am
03/28/09 11:59 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,113
Noblesville, IN
Jack Adams Offline
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MTT, I can,t really say for sure why 88.5,but I was glad it wasn,t 89 'cause to get .060 clearance in the cases for the rods(MAP rods for a Norton) there was a lot of grinding of the cases as it was. As you have probably noticed, everybody has a big-bore kit,but stroker triumphs are rare. They are a lot of work,but done right,you have a solid bottom end that will give you the most CC's out of whatever top end you put on it. I have barrels in the shop that would take mine out to 880,but the 803 runs so good I have yet to feel the need to go bigger. Jack

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: MarksterTT] #245531
03/29/09 10:36 am
03/29/09 10:36 am
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 79
manchester england
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wilksville Online content

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manchester england
Hi MTT,i think you may need a twin carb head to use a 90 degree crank. I pretty sure the inlet valve timing intervals overlap for some duration which may cause all kinds of flow problems. just a thought on my part, i don't speak from experience (yet)! I'm looking to do similar mod to my T140.rgds Pete


'74 T140V,'83 XR1000, C&J FLATTRACKER T140,
Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: wilksville] #245552
03/29/09 2:06 pm
03/29/09 2:06 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
Dallas Texas
RPM Offline
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Here is a Jack Wilson built stroked twin.
http://www.bigdcycle.com/bikes4sale.htm#1967_Hill_Climber
It has a 1/4" plate between case and jugs. I have not opened it up but more than likely a welded up stock crank with a Routts kit. If I ever get time it would be fun to look inside.

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: RPM] #245568
03/29/09 3:48 pm
03/29/09 3:48 pm
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
M
MarksterTT Offline OP
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Jack, thanks again, a bit of case grinding wouldn't stop me but the fear of creating a real shaker would. I believe the lightest rod/piston assy. would be the most beneficial here, are you running stock T140 pistons with your MAP rods? Cams, headwork/carbs any changes here to support the bigger engine? Is there a certain sweet spot in the rpm range where it's the smoothest?

Wilksville, yes, dual carbs would be the best choice for 90* crank but they are being run with a single carb head. I would probably try it both ways if I went that route. Still, if a 90* crank works as well as some say then perhaps the 90* stroker would be something. Years ago when Nourish was developing their 90* T140 crank, I asked them about a stroker version but they said it wasn't in the works.

Thanks for pix RPM, if you ever tear into that engine I'm sure there are a bunch of us that would also like to see inside through your camera.

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: MarksterTT] #245603
03/29/09 11:39 pm
03/29/09 11:39 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,113
Noblesville, IN
Jack Adams Offline
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Noblesville, IN
Markster,You are right as far as light is better.I had a set of Carrillo rods but they were so much heavier than the MAP rods I decided the MAP rods would work better for me. I had to have custom pistons made by JE pistons,cause I wanted 10.5 comp. pistons that fit a set of Gilardoni barrels.I run these pistons coated on the skirts at .0018 clearance. The cams are megacycle 1060's, carbs are 36mm mikuni flatslides on a Routt ported head.There are a couple of sweet spots, but I use one(3200-3400) for cruising with a overall gear ratio of 4.55 that I can't even remember the last time it shook anything loose. Jack

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: Jack Adams] #245744
03/30/09 6:57 pm
03/30/09 6:57 pm
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 221
Greenock, Scotland
G
gearhead1951 Offline
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Greenock, Scotland
check out GABMA one of thier contributors has just what you are aiming for !! an 866 Triunph , using norton stroke 90 degree crank , 6.33 rods , MAP T120 803 ( stock stroke ) big bore barrels , superlite skeletonized slipper pistons and a flow benched parellel intake 10 bolt head

dude claims it has signicantly less vibes than it did as a well sorted stocker and runs like turpintined tomcat !!!!

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: gearhead1951] #245752
03/30/09 7:21 pm
03/30/09 7:21 pm
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 79
manchester england
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wilksville Online content

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manchester england
gearhead, where is it from gamba homepage ?


'74 T140V,'83 XR1000, C&J FLATTRACKER T140,
Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: wilksville] #245820
03/31/09 2:18 am
03/31/09 2:18 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
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melbourne, australia
Hi Mark, Ive done 4 stroker cranks for triumphs and have finished a 90deg crank to swap into one of my 76deg motors for a comparison. In all conversions I use norton cranks. I have 1 360 motor, 2 at 76 and 1 soon at 90deg. In the 360 version I use the norton flywheel but reduce the diameter to clear the cams.This is not a race motor so I'm happy to use the norton flywheel. If you are going to rev it then make a steel one. The mating faces on the flywheel need to be milled to suit the triumph bore centres. It uses an E4220 inlet cam and E3134 on the exhaust with 'R' followers on both. It uses norton conrods with the small end opened to suit the T140 gudgeon pin. I run a 9 stud single carb (32mm AMAL)head on the T140 barrells. Piston height works out spot on with no modifications apart from machining the top of the piston to make a squish area.If you use the T140 head you probably wont even need to machine the pistons. This is a unit motor, the staggered cranks are in preunits. You will need to remove some material from inside the cases to clear the conrods, not much from the unit cases but heaps on the preunits. I grind the mainshafts leaving a large radius down to STD triumph size from the nortons 30mm. I still run the taper on the driveside by rebanding a norton sprocket with 29 teeth and the correct offset. Anneal and turn down the original norton oil pump drive on the timing side. The 1/2 time pinion keyway on the norton is narrow compared to the triumph so carefully grind down the triumph key where it fits into the mainshaft. Take a little off each side to keep the STD timing or from 1 side to adv/ret timing depending on which way its fitted. The timing side mainshaft can be turned into triumph dimensions easily on a lathe.I balanced mine to 55% and vibration has never been a concern. It is fitted in a much modified 1991 Honda CR 250 motorcrosser that I use for bushbashing. It has heaps of torque from idle and revs more than enough. Capacity is 818cc with .020" bores. Comp is by memory 9.25:1.
Hope this is of some help.
Cheers, Chris.


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: gearhead1951] #245952
03/31/09 10:15 pm
03/31/09 10:15 pm
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
M
MarksterTT Offline OP
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Jack, your set-up is what I'm looking at. I have the Gilardoni barrels, older 1030 cams etc. When I pushed my stock Gil. pistons down the T140 barrel 3.50" (89mm) I had about 5/16" or so piston skirt hanging out of the barrel. This is why I was thinking of using longrod barrels w/T140 head, also for the better rod to stroke ratio. Thanks again Jack

Gearhead, I'll check out that site when I get off here, that's exactly what I've been thinking of...thanks!

Chris, I've been wondering if I'd hear from you. I read that article on you in CB years ago, been thinking about it ever since. Thanks for the particulars of your engine mods, I hope you will post how your 90* conversion compares to 360* when you get it in. I'd love to see a picture of that Triumph engined CR250 also. I will keep the specs you gave on the Norton crank conversion as I have an 850 crank sitting here, just wasn't sure what to do with it. Yes, your reply is much appreciated, thankyou...Mark

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: gearhead1951] #245977
04/01/09 12:27 am
04/01/09 12:27 am
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
M
MarksterTT Offline OP
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San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: gearhead1951
check out GABMA one of thier contributors has just what you are aiming for !! an 866 Triunph , using norton stroke 90 degree crank , 6.33 rods , MAP T120 803 ( stock stroke ) big bore barrels , superlite skeletonized slipper pistons and a flow benched parellel intake 10 bolt head

dude claims it has signicantly less vibes than it did as a well sorted stocker and runs like turpintined tomcat !!!!


Gearhead, my computer skills are lacking so once on Gabma's site how do I find the above mentioned contributor?

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: MarksterTT] #246033
04/01/09 10:41 am
04/01/09 10:41 am
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 221
Greenock, Scotland
G
gearhead1951 Offline
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Posts: 221
Greenock, Scotland
Cant really explain it , I was on another web site and that was a link ! When I clicked that link it took me to the gabma site and to that bike ! I will try to retrace my steps and see if I can find it again myself !

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: MarksterTT] #246034
04/01/09 10:48 am
04/01/09 10:48 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
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melbourne, australia
Gday Mark, here is some pics I took tonight after work. This engine was a genuine Boyer race motor as described in Stan Shentens book. It does not have engine numbers but has the triumph logo all over the pad where they normally go so straight to the team from the factory I guess? Note the ground away clutch cover where the altenator would have sat, they must have leaned these things! The front engine mount was shortened 45mm to give the front wheel clearance. I used to run a 2 into 1 exh system up high but couldnt run a decent aircleaner so now the twin system. It also protects the oilpressure sender. I took the close ratio 5 speed Quaife gearbox out and swapped it with my '76 bonny box. A tall 1st was a pain in the bum in the bush.

The fuel tank is off an old Montessa with a bit of work done to clear everything. Nearly everytime I go away for the weekend it springs a new leak. I hate working with fiberglass, this tank weighs more than a Sherman tank and still weeps. This pic also shows my second passion, piston powered fighting aircraft. My grandfather was a Halifax pilot in '43-44 with the RAAF in 466 sqn and told me lots of stories, If Im not playin with pommy bikes Im reading about pre Korea military aircraft.



This pic shows the internals for the race sidecar. Note the funny looking cams and the amount of material removed to clear the conrods with the 89mm stroke. You can see the cam bushes have been exposed. The oil pickup tube also needs to be slightly modified to clear the bobweights. This is not needed on a unit motor. The 76 deg crank still has the MAP norton rods and slightly modified T140 pistons on it. These will go on the 90 deg crank sitting next to it for consistency. The head has been bathtubbed and a new addition is filling the inlet ports with resin, hence the holes under the inlet ports to give extra gripping area. I run on methanol so I dont want to run the risk of this stuff getting ingested if alcohol affects it. I bought the resin from the U.S. and the tech person said it was OK for alcohol so just a precaution.



This is where it all starts, a flywheel made from 4140 and mild steel counter weights. This is the 76 deg version.


The next hurdle is finding $500 to have the cams made to suit the 90deg crank. I still run points on the staggered crank motors but a Boyer on the 360 dirtbike.

Hope your helps your cause and answers a few questions.
Cheers, Chris.


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: 76degree-triumph] #246088
04/01/09 4:29 pm
04/01/09 4:29 pm
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
M
MarksterTT Offline OP
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San Francisco Bay Area
Wow! Chris, thanks for the pix and info, that's great stuff. First that CR818 is awesome, just what I need to trump my buddies new F800GS beemer. I see another project looming, I've got to get my rear in gear. Do you know the overall wt. of the CR?
Your head mods are what I had in mind, weld in the sides of chamber & JB weld for port floors. I've found no 2 ports even close to being identical on these old bikes. I could make a few phone calls to ck availability and cost of offset cams if you like Chris. Last time I talked to Keith Johnson (2 yrs ago) he said an offset cam was no problem and same price as std. cam which I see now is about $385 US, probably not cost effective with exchange rate & shipping however.
I've been aircraft mechanic last 31 yrs., my dad flew Douglas A26s in Korean conflict. He was also our motorcycle inspiration, his last new one a 1962 Honda CB77 we brought from Japan after being stationed there 3 yrs, we still have it & it's never been apart. He rode AJS 500, Tri 500 and cub in the Michigan Jack Pine enduro in the mid 1950's...good stories. My brother currently restores WW2 fighter aircraft for an outfit in Southern Calif., last month was working on a Hurricane, this month big push on finishing up another P51, you would go crazy if you saw what's in the museum down there, no Halifax that I'm aware of.
Thanks again for pix, I just have to decide on what I want to do now, I think I have enough information...thanks, Mark

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: MarksterTT] #246116
04/01/09 6:39 pm
04/01/09 6:39 pm
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 221
Greenock, Scotland
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gearhead1951 Offline
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Greenock, Scotland
Sorry , I cant seem to find myself now !! However , there is a bike in Back Street Heroes issue 294 that is a good representation of what you want . It belongs to a gent named Brian Holzigal in Atlanta . The bike was built by him in his shop .

That shop being , Southern Classics . The bike is a 360 with a 79 mm bore and a 89 mm stroke making it an 866 cc

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: gearhead1951] #246168
04/02/09 3:04 am
04/02/09 3:04 am
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
M
MarksterTT Offline OP
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Thanks gearhead, I talked to Brian years ago as I was directed to him by Marino from MAP regarding offset crank Triumphs. If I remember right he was trying a 76* at the time and wasn't that enthused...if I am remembering correctly that is. Perhaps I should call him again...

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: MarksterTT] #246177
04/02/09 3:51 am
04/02/09 3:51 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,113
Noblesville, IN
Jack Adams Offline
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Markster, If you are going to call Brian don't wait. I talked to him at Daytona last month and he said he was going to move back to Australia. Jack

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: Jack Adams] #246192
04/02/09 8:44 am
04/02/09 8:44 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
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melbourne, australia
Mark, using my old bathroom scales and weighing the front (68kg) then the rear (72kg) it comes out at 140kg or 308lbs. This is with oil but no fuel. Once that lump in the middle is removed the bike is very light.
Chris.


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: 76degree-triumph] #246215
04/02/09 1:42 pm
04/02/09 1:42 pm
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
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MarksterTT Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 76degree-triumph
Mark, using my old bathroom scales and weighing the front (68kg) then the rear (72kg) it comes out at 140kg or 308lbs. This is with oil but no fuel. Once that lump in the middle is removed the bike is very light.
Chris.


If I remember correctly, that lump runs around 125 lbs., thought it was hvy till I picked up a Yamaha 650 twin engine, darn near torqued my back out.

Chris, I forgot the most obvious question here, how do your 76* Triumphs run compared to 360* engine, performance, vibration etc. Thanks, again.

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: Jack Adams] #246219
04/02/09 1:51 pm
04/02/09 1:51 pm
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
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MarksterTT Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Jack Adams
Markster, If you are going to call Brian don't wait. I talked to him at Daytona last month and he said he was going to move back to Australia. Jack


Thanks for that, I'll see if I can rustle up a phone no.
Jack, you wouldn't happen to remember the wt. of your bare JE custom piston would you? I'm looking for the lightest reciprocating mass I can get my hands on, I think I'm finally seeing the light, the less there is to balance the less there is out of balance...Mark

Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: MarksterTT] #246252
04/02/09 6:52 pm
04/02/09 6:52 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,476
Johns Creek,Ga
GaCracker Offline
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Johns Creek,Ga
You can get in touch with Brian Holzigal by calling his former shop at 770-451-8868. I say former because he has turned the shop over to another GABMA member. Brian is still there a lot, but if not, Randy can get you in touch. I stopped by a few weeks ago, and Brian is getting everything ready to ship to Oz. Says it may be later this summer before he leaves. Great bloke, and we will all miss him. Greg


72 TR6RV
2004 Thruxton
Re: stroker cranked Triumph? [Re: GaCracker] #246318
04/02/09 11:44 pm
04/02/09 11:44 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 33
Los Angeles, CA
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SamSnead Offline
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Sorry, I didn't read through the whole post but why not a stroked 90degree since you'd be replacing the crank anyways, I don't think the crank cost would be any different. (I'll start a build thread when I finally get my 90 degree crank from NRE)

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