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#237883 - 02/15/09 2:46 pm PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!!
Gordon Gray Offline
Life member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 3830
Loc: North Carolina
Folks....our good friend Ton Up Chad needs some help setting up a new PVL ignition for his 1967 B44 EA AHRMA CC bike.

I don't know what info came with the ignition I (it is brand new but was on the self for years)but he's having trouble setting up the timing.

Okay...I confess I gave it to him but know nothing about it. So I'm at the very bottom of the learning curve and no help at all.

If you have any pointers (pun intended) you could pass along....PLEASE help a friend out here.

He's only got a couple of weeks to get it sorted...and is in a bind.

Thanks in advance....just another wantabe....GG in NC

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#237891 - 02/15/09 3:25 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Gordon Gray]
Dennis B Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 602
Loc: Annapolis, MD
Hi Gordon,
I Googled PVL ignition and it said this:

Systems are available in a fixed timing analog version suitable for all displacements, and a digital version for displacements under 200cc, which is programmed with a permanent advance/retard curve designed for uses where there is a lot of ranging in the engine's RPM, such as in motocross.

Does this mean there no advance with the analog unit?
What happens when he puts a timing light on it,
When he revs it, does it advance?
If not, then I would be hard to get it to run right
at different RPM's

Cheers
Dennis B
_________________________
Member # 182
'73 750 Commando
'69 Victors
'68 Bonneville
'51 Royal Enfield 250 'S'

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#237908 - 02/15/09 5:09 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Dennis B]
Gordon Gray Offline
Life member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 3830
Loc: North Carolina
Dennis...from what I'm hearing he hasn't got it to run yet. Just fires a couple of times and won't start.

I purchased the unit several years back from a fellow in England that knew I was going to use it on BSA unit singles (four strokes). I have his contact info somewhere but I'm not sure if he's still around. There was some info with the unit...not sure how much though???????

I hate the idea of him not being able to get it running with bits I gave him...but I can't help because I've never used/set-up one. I do know....at the time these were the cutting edge but not sure what's offered today.

Thanks for the help.....I think he might be having trouble finding the proper degree to set it to.....the 67 didn't have a timing plug hole. He's also new to unit singles.

Any advise on setting the timing would help.

Just another wantabe.....Gordon in NC

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#238032 - 02/16/09 7:36 am Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Gordon Gray]
Tom_dup1 Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 604
Loc: England
Gordon,

Was it Rex Caunt you bought it from? http://www.rexcauntracing.com

The PVL's Rex sells are specifically marked for each application i.e. B40, B44. He puts a Timing Mark on the Stator Plate which is alligned to the mark on the Rotor at TDC. Also he uses his own ignition module with different advance curves available for the different unit singles and applications i.e. trials and scrambles.If you were to put a system that he'd sold for a B40/C15 on a B44 then the timing mark would be out.

So; if it's one of Rex Caunts, did you buy it as a B44 system?

One big no no with these analogue systems is to use resistor plugs/caps.

HTH

Tom


Edited by Tom_dup1 (02/16/09 8:09 am)

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#238041 - 02/16/09 11:51 am Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Tom_dup1]
Gordon Gray Offline
Life member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 3830
Loc: North Carolina

snip....Was it Rex Caunt you bought it from? http://www.rexcauntracing.com



I'm pretty sure it wasn't purchased from Rex Caunt. I think the contact info is on the box it was in because so far I haven't been able to find it.



...snip...The PVL's Rex sells are specifically marked for each application i.e. B40, B44. He puts a Timing Mark on the Stator Plate which is alligned to the mark on the Rotor at TDC. Also he uses his own ignition module with different advance curves available for the different unit singles and applications i.e. trials and scrambles.If you were to put a system that he'd sold for a B40/C15 on a B44 then the timing mark would be out.

So; if it's one of Rex Caunts, did you buy it as a B44 system?....snip.....


VERY good point.....I purchased it to use on a late model B40....nobody in their right mind would scrambles a B44 (sorry, I had to say it)


....snip...One big no no with these analogue systems is to use resistor plugs/caps.

HTH

Tom [/quote]....snip...


Thanks for taking the time to help Tom....if in fact the timing mark is off I guess it's timing wheel time??? BUT...Is there a chance it just won't work on a B44??? I have no clue.

Just another wantabe....Gordon in NC

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#238047 - 02/16/09 12:28 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Gordon Gray]
Tom_dup1 Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 604
Loc: England
Ok, so it's a B40 one. The advance curves probably aren't that different on the PVL units. Worth a try. But the B40 wants max ignition advance of 33.5 degrees the B44 28 degrees (by the book).

The PVL rotor (from memory) is 60mm across so its approx 180mm in circumference. Therefore 1mm of circumference = 2 degrees of crank rotation/ignition advance. Assuming the PVL is marked for B40 timing,if the timing mark on the stator is moved anti-clockwise approximately 3mm (from lining up with the Rotor mark - retarding it)it should be a good starting point. After all optimum ignition timing is always a case of trial and error dependent on engine tune, fuel etc.

HTH

Tom


Edited by Tom_dup1 (02/16/09 12:54 pm)

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#238064 - 02/16/09 3:09 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Tom_dup1]
Alex Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 7400
Loc: NorCal
We got it to fire up Friday night...but the timing was apparently still off. Sounded very flat and was reluctant to rev. This was probably very due to the very approximate timing methods we were using. I had made a timing side degree wheel adapter, but goofed and it wouldn't fit. I'll fix that today. We should be able to get it timed better this week. The other issue is that compression seems low (80-90 psi)...but it's on a new bore so probably just still needs running in.

BTW, it fires when the timing marks on the rotor and stator are aligned, so I guess it's not one of the units from Rex that's supposed to be aligned to TDC. Also, Victor timing is supposed to be 29-31 deg TDC (by the BSA book).


Edited by Alex (02/16/09 3:18 pm)
_________________________
A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
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#238068 - 02/16/09 3:37 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Alex]
Tom_dup1 Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 604
Loc: England
Alex,

I wondered if you were helping Chad, as you've got a PVL on your BSA racer.

To me, it's pretty dumb having a crank mounted system that you time at TDC. Now if it was marked/timed to a figure BTDC you could have a piston stop specific to it and get it done accurately every time.

I hadn't got any BSA info to hand so I lifted the timing figures from Boyer Bransden. frown

So, how come Chad has crossed to the dark side and got a BSA?

Tom

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#238072 - 02/16/09 4:05 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Tom_dup1]
Alex Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 7400
Loc: NorCal
Tom, that's o.k., I don't think that we're at any point where a degree or two matters. Glad you brought up the resistor cap thing, 'cause that's all he had and I said it was OK, since I thought that's what I had on my Twins. Turns out I was mistaken and penton racing, who distributes PVL in the US, says precisely as you stated that analog systems use plain caps.

As for Chad on a BSA, I guess he didn't want to lug a twin around the CC course like some of our nuttier friends...


Cheers.
_________________________
A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.

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#238078 - 02/16/09 4:42 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Tom_dup1]
Rich B Online   confused
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 4379
Loc: Stone Creek OH USA
Tom sez:

"So, how come Chad has crossed to the dark side and got a BSA?"

Perhaps he finally saw the error of his ways and bought a real motorcycle laughing
_________________________
Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.

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#238188 - 02/17/09 1:11 am Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Rich B]
Gordon Gray Offline
Life member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 3830
Loc: North Carolina
Alex....if by Saturday afternoon you don't have it sorted....call me at 336-667-5684 HM 336-977-3658 Cell and I'll strip the ignition out of my trials bike and we'll hook it up Sunday....shouldn't take more than an hour (okay maybe 2 with all the lies being swapped) It's a tired and true system (Boyer Competition).....one simple little box.

Just let me know if I need to bring an alt and rotor....( I have plenty)

Hate to see a brother down.....especially with something I thought would work.

Just another wantabe...GG in NC

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#238235 - 02/17/09 7:44 am Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Rich B]
Tom_dup1 Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 604
Loc: England
Rich B sez:

"Perhaps he finally saw the error of his ways and bought a real motorcycle"

Nah, BSA's do have their place - off-road!

Tom


Edited by Tom_dup1 (02/17/09 8:17 am)

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#238307 - 02/17/09 3:51 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Tom_dup1]
Alex Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 7400
Loc: NorCal
I'm going over to Chad's tonight with timing wheel and piston stop. Knock on wood.
_________________________
A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.

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#238314 - 02/17/09 4:01 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Alex]
Tom_dup1 Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 604
Loc: England
Alex,

You gonna rig up the timing wheel on the end of the cam then?

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#238320 - 02/17/09 4:04 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Tom_dup1]
Alex Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 7400
Loc: NorCal
Yes, Tom, I've made an adapter for the cam and printed up a degree wheel with 720 degrees marked on it. I really can't think of a practical way to attach a degree wheel to the crank.
_________________________
A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.

Top
#238322 - 02/17/09 4:11 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Alex]
Tom_dup1 Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 604
Loc: England
Nice one! I'd never thought of doing it that way. I reverted to the straw down the hole. crazy

But;using your method, presumably using the piston stop rotating the engine one way then another till it touches and using the mid point as shown on the degree wheel as TDC. How do you eradicate backlash in the cam/pinnion gears? Or isn't it that significant?


Edited by Tom_dup1 (02/17/09 4:20 pm)

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#238522 - 02/18/09 3:37 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Tom_dup1]
Alex Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 7400
Loc: NorCal
Well, we checked the timing with the degree wheel (I checked backlash and it's way lees than 1 degree) and found that our crude methods weren't so crude. I had been set right on 30 degrees. It would kick back and maybe pop, but no more. Now, remembering that Penton Racing recommended 6 degrees retarded from stock for my twins, we started to retard the timing. It fired but wouldn't run..not even at 24 degrees. So, we sprayed starting fluid and it roared to life...then quickly petered out. I could keep it running if I choked the carb with my hand, so it appeared to be a carb problem. So, we replaced the carb with a sleeved one that was sitting around, cleaned the idle circuit out to be sure and it then fired after a few kicks. Chad wasn't getting much compression at the kicker and it was smoking real bad but it ran. After it warmed up a little and I adjusted the idle, the smoke cleaned up, compression got better (I guess the rings just needed to seat) and it even idled. But it seems that, no matter what we do it's 8-stroking on idle. Picks up really clean from there, but just won't idle evenly. It never really warmed up ( we didn't want to run in the new rings in the garage) so maybe that's it. Chad's going to button it up today and go ride it around...maybe it'll clear up. Maybe we'll advance it a little bit again once it's settled in, though I think that maybe on pump gas and it not really needing max power for cross country, being a little retarded is not such a bad idea.
_________________________
A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.

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#238530 - 02/18/09 4:09 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Alex]
Tom_dup1 Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 604
Loc: England
Alex,

Good to hear you are making progress.

I wouldn't get too hung up about tickover. On the singles with the self-generating nature of the PVL you aren't going to be able to get one ultra low, more like 1,000 rpm probably. Also; and I don't know if you found this with your own system, they seem to run stronger after a little use.

I couldn't get mine to play ball using the method for Slide selection from John Healey's AMAL notes (cracking the throttle open and noting the response), so I just picked the slide giving the best wheelie.

Good to know your timing method is accurate.

"a little retarded is not such a bad idea" - yep I get by just fine! laugh

Tom

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#239270 - 02/22/09 2:06 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Tom_dup1]
Alex Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 7400
Loc: NorCal
So, it seems that the PVL is defective. The bike will not run off idle. When checking with a timing light, as soon as it tries to come off idle, the timing goes haywire, firing at 220, 140, maybe 70 degrees (hard to tell it moves around a lot) and spitting fire out of the tailpipe. I don't know what we could have done to damage this thing or how it could have gone bad. I've thoroughly abused the PVL ignitions on my twins and they've been totally reliable. I guess we'll go with another ignition and send this one out for testing.
_________________________
A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.

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#239338 - 02/23/09 12:05 am Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Alex]
Alex Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 7400
Loc: NorCal
Well, the jig is up. We figured out the problem. Two words: Kill Switch!

Apparently this ignition does not like ordinary kill switches. We even pulled one off one of my twins running a PVL and it caused the same problem. My theory is that, since the kill switch basically seems to ground out the primary circuit, that once the primay peak voltage goes above a certain level, it jumps across the contacts in the kill switch. Oh well, I guess you learn something new every day...

Oh, and thanks, Gordon, for coming out and lending a hand. Wish you coulda stuck around longer, it's always a pleasure to have you. BTW, I can't seem to find the other head gasket I had out...I think I may have stuck it in those gaskets I put back in your top box. Could you check?
_________________________
A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.

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#239410 - 02/23/09 3:53 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Alex]
Gordon Gray Offline
Life member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 3830
Loc: North Carolina
Alex....I've been feeling so bad that I haven't unloaded the truck yet and just checked the board. Send me your addy to dad1150@aol.com and I'll mail the gasket to you.

If you NEED it in a hurry I'll overnight it.

Later....GG

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#239422 - 02/23/09 4:35 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Gordon Gray]
Alex Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 7400
Loc: NorCal
No hurry, I'm just curious as to whether I lost it since I can't find it or put it in the tub. As you know, my own victor will be some time before it needs gaskets...

Thanks again.
_________________________
A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.

Top
#242049 - 03/09/09 9:16 pm Re: PVL Timing HELP NEEDED BSA UNIT SINGLE!!!!!!! [Re: Rich B]
Alex Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 7400
Loc: NorCal
Just an update and final revelation to wrap this issue up. Chad went to Gatorback, FL for his first race and made it through one sighting lap...barely... when it started to misfire again. We reset the timing and, very similar to the issue with the kill switch, the timing just started going all over the place again. We also found that the crank nut holding the rotor was looking pretty stripped. After cleaning the threads and installing a new nut this weekend, I noticed that the nut wasn't bottoming on the rotor. The tubular section of the crank nut that normally goes inside the alternator rotor was, despite a supplied spacer, the only thing holding the rotor on...and that was maybe a contact .020" wide since the tube is chamfered at the front to ease installation. All it took was to file about .060" off the length of that tubular extension to the nut and it went home and, with the aid of loctite, will now hold its timing forever. It runs great, by the way.



Edited by Alex (03/09/09 9:19 pm)
_________________________
A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.

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Untitled Document

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