BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
JWood Auctions JRC Engineering dealers JWood Auctions
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Glencannon
Glencannon
Alanson, MI USA
Posts: 24
Joined: September 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
16 registered members (Boomer), 140 guests, and 58 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TROUBLE, Nazer, locobeta, Walt, DennisMartin
10389 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
NickL 95
Mori55 88
Triless 86
Rohan 84
reverb 79
Stuart 76
btour 69
DavidP 68
Popular Topics(Views)
691,908 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics68,056
Posts662,200
Members10,389
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
T150 Oil woes #235947
02/03/09 10:17 pm
02/03/09 10:17 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12
Black Isle, Highlands of Scotl...
S
steve-blackbob Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
steve-blackbob  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
S

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12
Black Isle, Highlands of Scotl...
A wee while ago I bought a 1972 T150, it had been laid up for a while and had wet sumped. i drained the oil and re-filled the tank, a fresh battery, some fule a few kicks and the bike fired up and settled down to a healthy tickover, oil light went out pretty much straight away so we were good to go. I did a few hundred miles on the bike before the salt hit the roads with no real hasle, a few bits n bobs needing tightened here and there but otherwise fine.

A couple of weeks ago I went to the lockup and pulled the T150 out to fire her up, a couple of kicks and she started easily enough, but the oil light wouldnt go out, I shut the motor down and checked the oil tank, no oil - sump full again.

I called LP Williams and ordered one of their anti drain valves which was fitted today, filled the oil tank with fresh oil, kick started the bike and she fired up sounding healthy enough, but runiing for a couple of minutes the oil light still wont go out, there is no sign of oil returning to the tank. Now this is my first Triple, I have had quite a few twins and generally after a build and fresh oil, I would expect the oil to return within 2 minutes, do the triples take longer?

Is this normal Triple behaviour, or have I got a pump problem?


1982 Triumph T140
1972 Triumph T150
1971 Triumph T120/TR6P Bobber
1969 B40GB Trials special
1957 Norton Nomad special
1947 Triumph TR5/T100 Dirttracker special
1937 Indian Sport Scout Stroker 57" special
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: steve-blackbob] #235948
02/03/09 10:21 pm
02/03/09 10:21 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
BritBike Forum member
Blapper  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
If it were a twin, I'd say check the crank end oil seal but it is a triple and I know nowt about 'em.

Blapper redwine

Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: Blapper] #235959
02/03/09 11:50 pm
02/03/09 11:50 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,461
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,461
New Jersey USA
I think you will find that with an anti drain valve that the oil supply line needs to be primed i.e. full of oil otherwise the pump will not pull air past the new valve.
Worth also calling LP Williams and asking them?
HTH

Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: Tridentman] #235963
02/03/09 11:59 pm
02/03/09 11:59 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
Tridentman is absolutely correct! ALERT! - PRIME PRIME PRIME PRIME feed oil line, when installing one of the L.P. Williams, or other anti-drain valves on a Trident or motor with a gear pump.... The Trident gear pump will not pump air!

Also, when changing the oil filter on a T150 be sure to tip the motorcycle on the left side and fill oil filter cavity with oil. Failure to do so will allow the main bearings to run without oil until the oil pump fills the cavity and builds pressure.
John


Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: John Healy] #235977
02/04/09 1:35 am
02/04/09 1:35 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,828
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,828
ca, us
The original problem is likely the anti-drain valve. These look as though the factory must have used the same drill for every engine they made. I posted photographs of the inside where the ball sits. Some people hammer the ball into the seat to try and make the seat conform to the ball (and usually need a new ball since they dented the original). The ball sits right on the lip between the hole face and the port hole that goes to the pump so any scratches in the port wall will also affect sealing. I made a special cutter from a countersink and 1/2"-20 bolt that will re-angle the seat so the ball seals only on the seat.
Also, the anti-drain spring can be higher pressure. Oil is nearly incompressible and the pump will put out 100 PSI so it will have no problem forcing the ball off the seat.
You can prime the LP anti-drain valve by removing the return line from the oil tank and using low pressure air (~5 PSI) into the oil tank, force the oil past the valve. The oil light should go out in a couple of kicks.
Maybe you need some of that special bearing saver oil they demonstrate at car shows where they run a V8 without the oil pan and no oil?

Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: steve-blackbob] #236012
02/04/09 10:42 am
02/04/09 10:42 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,186
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Offline
BritBike Forum member
S

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,186
Scotland
Hi,

I hate to rain on your parade but, by your own accounts above, you've now run the engine on two separate occasions without any oil supply to the crank, particularly the plain centre main bearings and big-end bearings, not to mention all the other plain bearings in the engine. The crank bearings in particular must have oil pressure to prevent metal-to-metal contact and consequent very high rates of wear.

Ime and mho, before I spent any more time faffing about with anti-drain valves and the like, I'd get hold of an oil pressure gauge with a range at least 0-100psi, attach it to the bike and engine and ride 'til I was damn' sure the oil was good and hot (block off the oil cooler at this time of year or it'll never get hot). When the oil's hot, if I was seeing less than about 65psi above 3,000rpm (and preferably higher), I wouldn't ride the bike again 'til I'd stripped it down and checked why the oil pressure was low. Yes, it'll be expensive, but ignoring low oil pressure on a triple 'til the engine tells you about it on its own is very, very, very expensive. Damhik. cry

The o.p. light is not a good warning; it switches off above about 7psi; the tickover pressure of a triple is around 25psi; hence the light better indicates "Ha! Your engine's f**ked". frown

Hth.

Regards,

Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: Stuart] #236049
02/04/09 6:34 pm
02/04/09 6:34 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12
Black Isle, Highlands of Scotl...
S
steve-blackbob Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
steve-blackbob  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
S

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12
Black Isle, Highlands of Scotl...
thisafternoon, we primed the pipes with a syringe, filled the filter void, made sure the oil cooler was full and removed the plugs kept turning the motor overe and over until eventually th eoil light went out, replaced the plugs fired up the engine and I now have pressure and can see oil returning to the tank. Engine sounds helthy enough, with no rumbles rattles or nasty noises so hopefully no damage done!

thanks all for the advice


1982 Triumph T140
1972 Triumph T150
1971 Triumph T120/TR6P Bobber
1969 B40GB Trials special
1957 Norton Nomad special
1947 Triumph TR5/T100 Dirttracker special
1937 Indian Sport Scout Stroker 57" special
Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: steve-blackbob] #236077
02/04/09 11:33 pm
02/04/09 11:33 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
"if I was seeing less than about 65psi above 3,000rpm"

As Stuart mentioned, for the people who use these Tridents, 60-65 pounds seems to be the magic pressure. Below that and they have a nasty habit of putting a rod through the case. I really like Tridents and used to ride one year round here in New England.

Unlike the 650 and 750 twins, Tridents oil supply to the crank is not center fed. As such the pump has to overcome centrifigal force pushing the oil into the crank. Unlike the twins, oil pressure is a real isssue on these motors and having the pressure checked with a real oil pressure gage is a very good idea.

The early T150's also have a smaller oil feed line and adaptor at the engine. When they made the T160 they increased the inner diameter of the oil feed line and the adaptor the is pressed into the engine. If you ever take this motor apart it is a must upgrade. It helps circulate oil when the motor is cold and helps prevent dry main bearing start-ups.

Do yourself a favor, have the oil pressure checked before you put a lot more mileage on it. In this case an ounce of prevention is worth many Pounds Sterling later! If it is up to the job, great. Your mind will rest easier. If not, you could save your self a lot of money.
John
Oh, the motor seldom makes and rumbling or rattling noises from the crankshaft before your here the explosion! Once the failure starts, it happens in several revolutions.


Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: John Healy] #236084
02/05/09 12:19 am
02/05/09 12:19 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
SBoyd Offline
BritBike Forum member
SBoyd  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
Another great post from John "Doomsday" Healy.

Other "watchdog death warnings" include the:
Sludge Trap Time Bomb
Exploding Rotor
Tire Coming off in a Death Slide caused by no rim locks.
The Sticking Throttle Slide wheelie of death.
and many more

BTW, they are true and I have started using rim-locks again.


Stop the insanity.
Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: SBoyd] #236091
02/05/09 1:21 am
02/05/09 1:21 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
"watchdog death warnings"

Actually it is Watchdog death, or worse, warnings!

crazy john


Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: John Healy] #236123
02/05/09 1:32 pm
02/05/09 1:32 pm
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
BritBike Forum member
Tiger  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Also, the anti-drain spring can be higher pressure. Oil is nearly incompressible and the pump will put out 100 PSI so it will have no problem forcing the ball off the seat.

All well and good if the check valve were on the delivery side of the pump but you have only atmospheric pressure on the suction side.

Hence John Healey's good advice re larger suction port modification, a T150 run hard from cold will allow atmospheric pressure to collapse the suction line with dreadfull results.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: steve-blackbob] #236139
02/05/09 3:02 pm
02/05/09 3:02 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,186
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Offline
BritBike Forum member
S

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,186
Scotland
Hi,

While wishing that John's warnings and advice reinforce my own, I personally prefer my triple engines to show around 75 to 85psi above about 3,000rpm when warm. This is based on the advice and experience of triple expert Les Williams, who was foreman fitter and then owner of the most successful production racing triple ever - 'Slippery Sam'. My limited experience of triples that start out showing only 60psi is that rapidly deteriorates; I watched the pressure sink to just 40psi at 4,000 in just 500 miles on my T150, and this is an engine that's covered just over a thousand miles from a 'restoration' (not by me). mad

Originally Posted By: John Healy
The early T150's also have a smaller oil feed line and adaptor at the engine. When they made the T160 they increased the inner diameter of the oil feed line and the adaptor

Actually all T150's and even early T160's have the smaller (5/16" dia.), only on later T160's was it increased to 3/8" dia. - very annoying as BSA and Triumph knew about the problem as early as 1970. mad However, as John says, it's relatively a simple upgrade when an engine's apart.

Originally Posted By: steve-blackbob
Engine sounds helthy enough, with no rumbles rattles or nasty noises so hopefully no damage done!

To reiterate John's warning, plain bearings do not rattle or make nasty noises, until about five milliseconds before all hell breaks loose. About 25 years ago, one of my T160's collapsed a (pattern) oil line (where it curves over the frame tube) at about 5,000rpm on the M11. I stopped because I had a 'feeling' (confirmed when it then took over 3,000rpm to extinguish the oil light frown ). Still a 700 (1985 prices) repair bill (crank regrind, new bearings, one new rod - old one had an oval big end, new valves and guides).

In comparison, an o.p. gauge, even if you have to buy it, is peanuts.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: Stuart] #236165
02/05/09 4:32 pm
02/05/09 4:32 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,463
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

Life member
JubeePrince  Offline

Life member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,463
Back on the mainland!
This is an excellent thread with some great information. Although I'm quite certain that the Triples board is well aware of these types of issues, perhaps this thread could be moved or copied there for the benefit of others......moderators, what say you?


Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: T150 Oil woes [Re: JubeePrince] #236206
02/05/09 8:15 pm
02/05/09 8:15 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,828
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,828
ca, us
"All well and good if the check valve were on the delivery side of the pump but you have only atmospheric pressure on the suction side."
I was talking about the stock anti-drain valve which IS on the pressure side of the pump. Putting in an aftermarket anti-drain valve before the pump only shows that you have a problem that you have not fixed. The pump having to overcome the seal pressure of the pre-pump valve will make collapsing the oil hose more likely. It would probably be a good idea to change the feed line to braided steel over teflon to keep that from happening.
DM


Moderated by  John Healy 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2