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greeves triumph = grumph #229944
12/28/08 1:12 am
12/28/08 1:12 am
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 30
illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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Hello everyone Im new to your site I own a few different brands of race bikes myself. My road racers I raced years ago are a Yamahas fzr750r a Wayne Rainy racing TZ 250 riden to AMA championship by Jimmy Filice (still has original body work). S Harley 250 flattracker and my dads old Greeves 1962 mcs 250 villiers 36A powered I just got it back together after sitting still for 40 years in my dads garage amazing all the parts were still there in the old ammo boxes the clutch rod welded itself inside the main tranny shaft in 1969. I got parts from Frank Conley Greeves guru. Back then dad did'nt know where to find parts, I have not rebuilt the engine yet, it had spark and compression and fired right up runs great the bike is all original. Anyway Im going to build another Greeves mcs (Grumph) with Triumph t100 has anyone on this board done this before? I getting a complete 1969 t1oo from an old flattrack buddy for 650.00 hope thats a good deal it runs but will probably need freshened up its had a few things done to it like primary chain adjuster up grade crankcase breather set up small things here and there really its pretty much stock has Daytona cams this engine has raced against some of you flattrack guys in the past and ran pretty good from what I was told. Im courious about knowing all the tricks kind of hp has been achieved from a 500 twin and how fast in speed? how many carbs would you run? what about exhaust Im open for suggestions as I have no experience with triumphs I really like the Greeves something a little different especially w/triumph this will be a fun project for sure.

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Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: greevesmcs] #230023
12/28/08 7:47 pm
12/28/08 7:47 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 758
Riverside, CA.
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noisy norton Offline
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I've seen photos of a number of Grumphs. At a swap meet a feww months ago I saw a Grumph, for the first time in relaity. It was a frame with engine and not much else. Ihave to admit I was very tempted as he was only looking for $200. But I really didn't need another project.

Not a great one for extracting HP from a Triumph and most I have read about were built for off road so top speed was not an issue. And strangely enough all were single carb engines.


God rides a Triumph but wishes it was a Norton.
Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: noisy norton] #230052
12/29/08 12:24 am
12/29/08 12:24 am
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 30
illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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Thanks for the replie Im going to do this for fun and i might try to see how good i can get it to run on a 1/4 to 1/2 mile flattrack and small tt's im willing to put alot of testing into this project the bike will look very nice it maybe a little strange with the leading link front end but those greeves back then handled good from what i have heard i do have a set of dirt track marzocchi's sitting in the corner that can be used also. i checked the wheel base on dads greeves its at 54" with room to adjust the head rake was a whopping 33 degrees using a angle finder on the fork leg i dont know if that was the right way to check this kind of front end as the axle does not go thru the forks its in front of them I have ridden dads greeves it can turn on a dime easy to flick it left to right and even ran it around a small short track it has a 21" front wheel and a 18" rear with trials tires the grump will have 19" front and back.

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: greevesmcs] #230087
12/29/08 4:46 am
12/29/08 4:46 am
Joined: Aug 2006
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FLOWERMOUND, TEXAS, 75022, USA
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HUGOCT Offline
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I think if you are going flattracking you would want a proper flattrack frame
If not my second choice would be the stock Triumph frame
The Greeves frame would probably work for desert or MX but the geometry will be all wrong for flattrack

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: HUGOCT] #230090
12/29/08 5:33 am
12/29/08 5:33 am
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Posts: 30
illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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yes i know but this is an experiment i did put the angle finder on the steering neck it read 27 degrees remember this bike im measuring off of has a 18 rear wheel and a 21 front the front forks are pitched (degree wise) different than the neck if i put the marzocchi's on it it will probably be closer to a normal dirt track set up by the way did any of you guys race the arma tt event at peoria

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: greevesmcs] #230096
12/29/08 7:16 am
12/29/08 7:16 am
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Riverside, CA.
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noisy norton Offline
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One thing you might want to check is how much room you have for sticking a Triumph in there. I seem to recall (and I could be wrong) that the Greeves frame needs to be lengthened a bit. All the ones I've seen photos of have been unit models.


God rides a Triumph but wishes it was a Norton.
Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: noisy norton] #230100
12/29/08 8:44 am
12/29/08 8:44 am
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Posts: 30
illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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your right the only engine that will fit would be a unit 500 1969 is the one im getting i guess you know its late im bored and can't go to work as im an earthmover by trade living here in illinois the weather has been horrible lately i will be getting the chassis and frame from california from a guy thats 80 years old i might have to pay someone to bring it to me as he told me he is to old to box it up.
i would still like to know more on setting the engine up like they had to back in ol days of glory for dirt track and tt's does it take alot to out run a kr with one of these 500 triumphs.

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: greevesmcs] #230102
12/29/08 10:00 am
12/29/08 10:00 am
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Posts: 87
Cornwall
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DM Offline
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Here's one my dad built a couple of years ago -
3TA engine is lowered slightly in the engine plates, Tank is raised slightly to gain clearance. Oil tank and side panel are cut down A.J.S. Two into 1 exhaust.Front mudguard lowered so it looks better.


Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: DM] #230122
12/29/08 2:47 pm
12/29/08 2:47 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,876
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Online content
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DM that looks very nice. Your Dad made it look very well engineered.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: GrandPaul] #230167
12/29/08 7:13 pm
12/29/08 7:13 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
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A friend of mine here in France has a 500cc Grumph and loves it. He reckons its strength isn't out and out speed off road, but the ability to pop out of holes effortlessly. I rode it and it seemed good to me although my off road exploits usually end up with a visit to the hospital...

Blapper redwine

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: Blapper] #230172
12/29/08 8:06 pm
12/29/08 8:06 pm
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 30
illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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Dm that an awsom job your dad did, thats the kind of job im planning.
If that bike was stripped of is electronics and had dirt track number plates and 19" wheels and tires and a flattrck seat the appearence would be set for me does anyone else have any pictures
to share

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: Blapper] #230249
12/30/08 6:17 am
12/30/08 6:17 am
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Riverside, CA.
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I was looking up something unrelated when I saw this. The Motor Cycle of 1966. On the right is a dozen Greeves all going for next nothing (now). Oh to be there then and know what little I do know.

[/img]


God rides a Triumph but wishes it was a Norton.
Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: Blapper] #230429
12/31/08 1:38 pm
12/31/08 1:38 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 259
FLOWERMOUND, TEXAS, 75022, USA
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HUGOCT Offline
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before you spend too much time or money you may want to check out the AHRMA or VDTRA rules
If you intend to run in the classic class (1952-1968) you are required to run the manufacturers swingarm frame or an aftermarket rigid racing frame as that was what the AMA rules for dirttrack during that period which would rule out using a Greeves frame
If you are running in the modern period which allows any frame against TT500s etc. I think you will find being competitive with a Triumph 500 very challanging

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: HUGOCT] #230520
12/31/08 8:22 pm
12/31/08 8:22 pm
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illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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Well Hugot i do know the rules the only real track i would like to race this thing at in AHRMA would be Peoria tt if they will let me unless someone protest other wise i would enter it in the Peoria vintage twins at the hot shoe event if they have on again. Greeves at one time just made the frame and purchased the wheels & engine. Villiers for example similiar to american briggs and stratton doing the same was Cotton,Dot and others i dont recall a (villers motorcycle) that was just one kind of engine you could get.
If you were there the last time for AHRMA I was the guy on a little Harley sprint #65x yes that was me going well in the 250 classic and 500,750 classic until my brake broke i had the 250 in the bag by a long shot but ended up second in my heat race because the brake got cought on the right hander and had to be welded, it broke again (bad luck) in the 500,750 classic heat. Here I was with the 500,750's and no brakes running with the pack then the dropped a valve as soon as I came off the jump my day was over maybe next time. in practice I was flying I waited and went out side by side with George Wills on his khrtt 900 to see if I could hang with him I stayed out front with good distance in between us the entire practice what a fun day. Davenport would be another place i would like to run the Grumph and outlaw races, district vintage class I also road race for Ron Lancaster (GURU)Lancaster SPRINTS 2 beautiful racers 250 gp and a 350 gp flying Harley colors

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: greevesmcs] #230535
12/31/08 9:39 pm
12/31/08 9:39 pm
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FLOWERMOUND, TEXAS, 75022, USA
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HUGOCT Offline
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The AHRMA rules require you to run a Triumph frame if you run in the classic class (1952-1967)
If you run in the modern class then you can run anything with twin shocks but you are up against 750s
The PMC twins invitational was all 750s
The early 500 frame has the right geometry and will work great if you brace up the swingarm and pivot and the steering head
Some of the AHRMA tech guys can be real picky and I have heard of them turning away the later Triumph 500 motors with the bearing on the cam side

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: HUGOCT] #230576
01/01/09 1:23 am
01/01/09 1:23 am
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Posts: 30
illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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Hugoct your right about the rules but i will still try if it dont work i will ride a extremely worked over Harley ers 350. 750's dont intimidiate me on the tt hell a new 450 will out run one of those on a half mile with the right rider seen it done.There was a xlr 900 harley at the vintage twin event, im friends with Mike Caves the guy that won the Vintage twins class
he's fast and is the one that welded up my brake on my sprint when it broke it was just too low for turning right and cought in the ground twice. I race against him on his big single at the last district vintage race this year on a big stock car banked short track of corse i did not win the sprint was out motored by the bigger 600's
i finished mid pack less than a half lap from 1st place out of 10 laps i thought i would have end up getting lapped before the end. Thats why im wanting to build a 500 my 250 is just out motored against the bigger bikes and thers not a class around here for light weight vintage.

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: greevesmcs] #232579
01/13/09 3:33 pm
01/13/09 3:33 pm
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,115
Kansas
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Jason,
I hadn't been around here in quite a while, glad you found this site. Ask about your breather setup on here, this is where I heard what I was telling you about.

On the subject of a t100 flattracker... Some have discouraged me saying that there is no way to make one competitive with big singles or big twins. Some say they are a great bike to buid up and just need to be ridden right, like a twin, not like a single. I'm going to email you some info off the forum too.

Good luck,
Kyle#44x


Kyle#44x

1969 T100R Daytona
1979 Powroll Honda XR250 "Dallas Baker" flattracker
1975 XL350 project bike
Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: kboyd] #232654
01/13/09 11:32 pm
01/13/09 11:32 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 259
FLOWERMOUND, TEXAS, 75022, USA
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HUGOCT Offline
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I talked to Wills and he said if it's not in a Triumph frame it gets moved to Sportsman which has you running against the bikes in Trackmaster etc. frames
Please keep in mind they are trying to accuratly depict 60s racing and a Grumph never would have been allowed to race AMA under the sixties class C rules
Sportsman also requires an OEM frame or a period dirttrack frame
Before I spent a lot of time much less money on this I would request a variance and get an approval from AHRMA's dirttrack rules commitee

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: HUGOCT] #232695
01/14/09 8:44 am
01/14/09 8:44 am
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 30
illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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Hugot I talked to Brekon for a good while and he told me i was fine and he is on the board I was told as long as the pieces are period correct.
The engine does not have to match the frame they just have to be
components of that era no aftermarket swingarms ect. I asked him
if that would mean a guy could have a triumph in a Harley frame say a sportster yes he told me, so im wondering who will be the first to protest me if i show up in the 500,750 class if they get there way so be it, I will ride the Harley and I wont be last unless i break or fall by the way I watched some old videos from the 60's and there was a Grumph along with some Rickman Metisse's with twin 500's like Steve Mcqueen used to ride they are coming out with a few remakes in honor of Mcqueen this year.

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: greevesmcs] #232697
01/14/09 9:10 am
01/14/09 9:10 am
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illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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Here are the rules for classic open class ahrma dirt track:
D. CHASSIS must be same period as the class in which the machine is entered. ( does not mention engine brand)

Swingarm frames are allowed in Classic classes only if they are production components for that make and year of motorcycle and
equipped with stock - configuration swingarms
(well I have a 1962 Greeves with stock swingarm)

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: greevesmcs] #232803
01/14/09 10:17 pm
01/14/09 10:17 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 259
FLOWERMOUND, TEXAS, 75022, USA
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HUGOCT Offline
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You are correct that there were "Grumphs" and "Metisses" in the 60s
They were used mainly in desert races and some scrambles races
They were never used in AMA class C flattrack or TT races because the rules required that you run the engine and frame of the approved motorcycle in question..mixing and matching of parts was not permitted..and if a "Grumph" would have showed up at Peoria in the 1960s it wouldn't have been allowed to run
AHRMAs classic class rules reflect that historical fact
the rules allow you a rigid race frame or the manufacturers swing arm frame...the manufacturer has always been interpreted to mean who made the engine and the frame
A Greeves engine needs a Greeves frame amd a Triumph engine needs a Triumph frame
That is how it was back in the 60s
The rules loosened up in the 70s and your bike works fine in sportsman
I did speak to Craig and he suggests you submit your case to the AHRMA dirttrack commitee for approval (the form is in the rulebook)...providing proof of some historical significance in regard to dirttrack racing
Please don't take this personally, but I feel that the bikes on the track in a historic event need to pass two tests...1)were they there then? do they meet the rules of the period? (per the AHRMA rulebook "rules intended to capture each distinct period of dirt track racing and pit the motorcycles of that period against each other...preserving the historical basis of each class") and a "Grumph" passes neither...that being said it's a great vintage cross country or vintage MX bike or "run what ya brung" bike

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: HUGOCT] #232831
01/15/09 3:41 am
01/15/09 3:41 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,404
SLO County, CA
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Greeves were equipped or "fitted" with a Villiers engine. I believe the engine in Greeves bikes became somewhat proprietary towards the end of the Marque but most were supplied from Villiers...

I don't have a Grumph but I've seen a few. The plates just need to be made up, add an oil tank, figure out the correct offset for the drive, the exhaust of course and a few (many?) other things that I'm sure would come up.

I do have a California street legal, licensed, insured and registered 1960 Scottish/Hawkstone with a 34A Villiers presently installed.....and a very nice and complete T100 engine sitting on the work bench.

I'd like to find some templates with the necessary spacing details. Maybe some day, right now the 2-stroke trials engine is too much fun.

Greevesmcs....If you need some assistance with the shipping of the frame from California, perhaps I could help. Email me or send me a private message.

Don in Nipomo smile

Last edited by D.Bachtel; 01/15/09 3:47 am.

1956 Zundapp KS601EL
1960 Greeves Scottish/Hawkstone Velorex 560
1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire
1964 Triumph T20SM
1965 BSA C15T
1966 BSA VE
1968 Bonham Tote Gote
1969 BSA VS
1970 BSA A65L (with a "Y")
1972 Husqvarna 450 WR
1986 Yamaha TT 225
1987 BMW K75C
Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: D.Bachtel] #232841
01/15/09 7:13 am
01/15/09 7:13 am
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Posts: 30
illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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HUGOCT hope you feel real proud of yourself you must be grinning ear to ear stirring the pot. I was just going by the rule book and Im right legally the way the rules are in writing.
However Breckon called me tonight said he cought some heat we went thru the rule book over the phone again.
Found only in the Dinosaur classes does the rule book state that the engine and chassis have to be made by the same manufacture.
This does not say anything in reguards to classic classes having to have engine and chassis matching the same manufacture. I was told for next year the rules will have to be changed and written different to make the engine and chassis match in the classic classes along with using stock drum brakes oem ECT.
I know alot of guys running in classic classes that have modified front forks and other brands (jap) forks along with brakes and brake components that came off bikes after 1967 Im not going to bust their bubble (PROTEST)but they would be illegal.
To me this is just for fun. What would happen if I showed up with a Moto-bi? or some other bike brand like MV-AUGUSTA thats not listed in the rule book under MACHINE ELIGIBILITY as there were many other brands of motorcycles in production thru out the world during that era. IF the RULES IN THE BOOKs are not correct then what is?
Are the book a misprint?
I go back 7 years with ahrma rule books and 500/750 classic and tt rules are written the same! Whats up with that?
I have been building this bike according to the rules written in the book for 500/750 classic class if it dont work out for me the book must be a big lie (fraud).
Maybe I could call it an aftermarket frame and put struts on it for short track and 1/2 mile tracks, according to the rule book: Section D CHASSIS states any aftermarket frame must be of rigid type (hardtail or strutted) to compete in classic classes an aftermarket would be any other brand custom or store bought tell me im right.
Greeves were basically a rolling chassis after being handbuilt they made the frame and forks and tanks. The engines (VILLIERS)and the wheels and hubs,handlebars,seats ect. Where purchased from a outside companys and assembled together.

MY EARS AR OPEN COMMENTS ANYONE.

Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: greevesmcs] #232861
01/15/09 1:19 pm
01/15/09 1:19 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,380
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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My 2cents from left field, if you could have built it in that era with parts available then why not now, it would just make the racing more interesting. If it wouldn't have been allowed then but the rules now allow it, that's a plus, it still makes it more interesting. It's not like it's going out of era or displacement. Sport needs enthusiasts. In the day marques were competeing for sales etc, today it's enthusiasts. I'd like to see a race with that bike in it.
Another comment, if you are going into the motor, there is some advantage to be had by changing the Triumph's crank to 90 deg, it's pretty simple to cut and bolt the crank halves to a new centre flywheel and get cams ground to suit. I've seen articles on a couple of people running 90deg Triumph 500s. Yamaha did it with their Paris Dakar bikes,(not cutting and bolting though) to be competitive with the Ducatis. I believe the theory is that a single has the best drive because the power pulses are furthest apart, a twin is next but with even spaced power pulses it has more tendancy to spin the wheel than an offset firing twin that is a bit more like the single. So with identical power if one configuration drives the actual bike faster out of a turn it's quite an advantage. Some years ago here in Australia there was a 2 valve per cyl 750 Ducati ridden by Kevin Magee, that was thrashing multi valve 1000cc factory Jap superbikes, so you definitely don't need the most displacement or maximum HP to lap a track fastest.


mark
Re: greeves triumph = grumph [Re: Mark Parker] #232865
01/15/09 1:50 pm
01/15/09 1:50 pm
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illinois
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greevesmcs Offline OP
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Nice to see somebody is on the Greeves (GRUMP) side Thanks Mark.
I have a picture of a Greeves at Ascott TT earley 60's with Eddie mulder there also on his 650 Triumph tt now if I can only find on with a 500 engine.
BY the way the AHRMA races at Peoria TT runs alot of different classes the only years the AMA actually ran light weights were
1963-1964-1965 so any thing else in ahrma today really should not be allowed according to HUGOCT. THAT WOULD KILL ATTENDANCE.
again thanks, MARK

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