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#221295 - 10/30/08 5:35 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Bigtwin]  
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rotorwrench Offline
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Thats a 500cc Tomahawk on the cover. Its one of the older ones with the small fin cylinder heads. Its funny about that. Some of my Trailblazer manuals have Tomahawks on them and the Tomahawk manuals have Trailblazers on them. Some of the Trailblazer manuals have older 1955/56 info only and some have a mixture of all the models from 55 thru 58. I've never seen an Indian manual with a date later than 1958 yet. I've also never seen a Chief or Apache specific shop manual. They just lumped it all together. I have a parts manual for the Apache but it is a 1957 manual so it doesn't include the updates that were done in 1958. I would crap if I ever found one for a 1959 Indian model of any sort. The only manual I have that was made in this time frame was a type written addendum to the 58 Trailblazer parts manual that included Chief part numbers only. I have to use the 1959/60 Meteor Minor parts book for my 58 Tomahawk.

Kerby

Last edited by rotorwrench; 10/30/08 5:44 pm.
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#221648 - 11/01/08 7:55 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: rotorwrench]  
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Claude Reeder Offline
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Geneva (the swamp) Florida
Alright... I got all the pieces cleaned up so I can reassemble the outer transmission (shifter) area. The manual is great but a little vague on the metal clip thingees. the first part that goes on reminds me of the the juice harp my grampa used to play then a metal plate with a tab on it goes on after that. Does the metal clip fasten on to the tab or does it rest on one side or the other (top/bottom). This prolly makes no sense at all so I'll post pics later but let me know if you've got any pointers.

Cheers!
Claude (I love this stuff)

#221878 - 11/03/08 6:37 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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I took a look at the break-down and I believe you are refering to the springs. The smaller spring (ratchet spring) goes in place with one leaf on one side of the little button on the adjuster plate and one leaf on the other, if that makes sense to you. There are actually 2 buttons that I will refer to. One is on the first plate with the tab that you mentioned (adjuster plate), the other is on the partial eclipse looking plate (ratchet plate) that goes on after the small spring is in place. The button looking ends both go in the same place facing the ratchet spring with the little eye of the spring surounding both buttons. It then acts as a bi-directional spring allowing for tension both directions for operation of the ratchet. The bigger spring is the foot shift lever return spring and it goes on first. Hope this answers your question.

Kerby

Last edited by rotorwrench; 11/03/08 7:08 pm.
#221889 - 11/03/08 7:39 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: rotorwrench]  
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Claude Reeder Offline
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Geneva (the swamp) Florida
Ok... sorry guys. I promise not to ask stupid complex questions without pictures anymore. I think I got what you were saying but just to clarify see below... I've also added another pic with another question... it seems like I should be able to click that shaft back and forth but it doesn't budge at all.

Thanks!


#221902 - 11/03/08 8:09 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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Hi, Claude!
There is usually enough "slack/slop" in the ratchet assy to tell if the problem is in the ratchet or gearbox internals. I have seen spring box plunger screw ( detent mechanism ) rusted to the point it would not release from the internal selector fork thus keeping the bike from shifting. Just unscrew it & check to see that the plunger compresses it's coil spring returns easily. Ratchet problems usually are the result of missing spacers. RE/Indian gearboxes need to spin for best shifting. For partial or complete bikes, I use an electric motor with a rubber drive wheel pressed against the rear wheel to spin the box via the countershaft. You should be able the check the shifting pretty quickly.

Bigtwin

#221934 - 11/03/08 11:47 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Bigtwin]  
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Claude Reeder Offline
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Geneva (the swamp) Florida
Well... I went out and tried unscrewing the spring box plunger screw and it would only turn a little to the left(1/16"). I was afraid to put any more wieght into trying to unscrew it for fear of damaging it. Should I be thinking about taking the whole gearbox apart?

#221944 - 11/04/08 12:35 am Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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rotorwrench Offline
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Big Twin is correct about turning the mainshaft to allow things to move inside there. Those shifter dogs won't engage/disengage if things aren't moving. You should be able to get it to shift by manipulating the neutral lever but it is usually easier with the foot shift lever through the ratchet mechanism.

BUT, if there is something such as corrosion or some kind of organic or metalic material in there preventing the sliding gears from sliding or the fork from rotating, then you might have to remove the inner cover to investigate. That detent pin & spring (springbox pin) can cause it to lock up if it is corroded. You might have to take the cover off the check that out if you can't get it to turn out easily. Definitely better safe than sorry on these old units. Anything forced too much will snap.

The large foot shift return spring you were questioning earlier engages the foot shift arm at a pawl located inboard of the link to the ratchet assembly and I think it straddles the tab on the adjuster plate if I remember correctly. It will all start to make sense to you the more you play with it. It only gets confusing if something is missing and not allowing proper function. You have the same break down I have.

Kerby

#221956 - 11/04/08 1:57 am Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: rotorwrench]  
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Claude Reeder Offline
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Geneva (the swamp) Florida
K. So I worked the plunger screw back and forth a bit and tapped the handle of the screwdriver... it finally worked loose and I was able to unscrew it but there was no spring pressure at all behind it.

Since I had the clutch out, I spun the clutch basket by hand back and forth and noticed a rather alarming clunk coming from the gear box... still won't shift either... I don't think I'm going to get around re-building the gear box (sigh).

On the bright side, I *will* be an expert when it's all said and done! Hah!

Thanks guys,
Claude

#222004 - 11/04/08 1:46 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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Alright. Please don't shoot me. I just happen to be in an area of workshop manual vaguery. If you have rebuilt or serviced a big twin tranny please comment below...

when this is all said and done I think I'm going to do a photo guide to this process for future newbies like myself.

Thanks a bunch in advance guys!


#222033 - 11/04/08 5:17 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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Bigtwin Offline
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Hi!
# 1,2,3,4 are the inner cover screws. On my bikes of similar vintage these screws were phillips head screws... Probably not correct due to years of tampering. However, I think I see washers under some of your screws... Certainly a clue that someone has previously been inside!!! Ok, #6 is a stubby hex bolt that only serves to secure the steel inner stop plate for the Kickstart pawl. You need to find out where that plate has fallen internally!
If the kicker (#5) is not engaging, you will find (when you remove the inner cover ) that the pawl itself is missing, broken, or stuck due to corrosion. I suspect you are dealing with rusted internals & you should take a look anyhow. If you can spin the clutch mainshaft ( you have right side end of it exposed) at all, you can put a wrench on the neutral finder ( square shaft ) and jiggle it into shifting while turning the mainshaft. The spring box plunger screw should remove easily and you will hear it "click" every 1/2 turn. No click...plunger spring is collapsed/stuck. If the clutch mainshaft spins freely and the large hex nut and shaft you see exposed does not turn, sadly, you have a busted mainshaft. Not an unheard of phenomenon! Once upon a time, my Interceptor bit back through the kicker and sheared the mainshaft! Would not have been so bad, except it did it in front of a crowd of onlookers at Parks Restaurant (Daytona)during Bike week. CRAP!!!

Good luck! Hope this helps... Cool pictures!

Bigtwin

#222034 - 11/04/08 5:18 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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Southeast Usa
Hi!
# 1,2,3,4 are the inner cover screws. On my bikes of similar vintage these screws were phillips head screws... Probably not correct due to years of tampering. However, I think I see washers under some of your screws... Certainly a clue that someone has previously been inside!!! Ok, #6 is a stubby hex bolt that only serves to secure the steel inner stop plate for the Kickstart pawl. You need to find out where that plate has fallen internally!
If the kicker (#5) is not engaging, you will find (when you remove the inner cover ) that the pawl itself is missing, broken, or stuck due to corrosion. I suspect you are dealing with rusted internals & you should take a look anyhow. If you can spin the clutch mainshaft ( you have right side end of it exposed) at all, you can put a wrench on the neutral finder ( square shaft ) and jiggle it into shifting while turning the mainshaft. The spring box plunger screw should remove easily and you will hear it "click" every 1/2 turn. No click...plunger spring is collapsed/stuck. If the clutch mainshaft spins freely and the large hex nut and shaft you see exposed does not turn, sadly, you have a busted mainshaft. Not an unheard of phenomenon! Once upon a time, my Interceptor bit back through the kicker and sheared the mainshaft! Would not have been so bad, except it did it in front of a crowd of onlookers at Parks Restaurant (Daytona)during Bike week. CRAP!!!

Good luck! Hope this helps... Cool pictures!

Bigtwin

Last edited by Bigtwin; 11/04/08 5:21 pm.
#222037 - 11/04/08 5:32 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Bigtwin]  
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Claude Reeder Offline
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Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

I have a home office so I ran out to my shed real quick and the main shaft end is indeed turning with the clutch basket... I don't think the internals are broken but I believe that the internals of the gearbox are horribly gummed up and varnished.... so it's coming apart.

Does anyone have a set of internal cover screws that I could buy off of them? I imagine that I'm going to have to take the damaged ones out with a pair of vise grips and will need some new screws.

Thanks again,
This is an amazing resource.

-Claude

PS. Bigtwin, let me know when you're going to be down here for that hotrod run in Daytona... you gotta swing on over to check out my project and a grilled burger.

#222054 - 11/04/08 8:11 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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San Antonio, Texas
Screws 1, 3, 4, & 5 are all suposed to be cheese head screws (filister head in this country). The #2 screw next to the filler port casting is actually a hex bolt with a slightly rounded crown. The head on it is the same as the bolt for the #6 hole but its a longer bolt than that for the kick start pawl stop Big Twin mentioned.

Most of the ones I have don't look a lot better than the ones you have. I can help with the proper length part numbers if you want to order new ones from Hitchcock's though. Make sure that someone didn't change the threads over to a US standard thread too. I've seen 1/4-28 screws turned in hard, then the threads have to be heli-coiled. Oh Yea, the spring box pin guide looks like it comes out from the inside of the inner cover. I think the nut & washer help hold it in place as well as lock the sping pressure adjustment, if I remember correctly.

Kerby

#222055 - 11/04/08 7:25 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: rotorwrench]  
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Claude Reeder Offline
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Geneva (the swamp) Florida
Kerby,
If you know what the part number is... fire away. I just ordered some stuff from Hitchcocks but it was hard to tell what was what off of their parts diagram... I think I got the right screws but let me know what you've got there.

Thanks,
Claude

#222057 - 11/04/08 8:41 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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San Antonio, Texas
There are 2 each FC57/103 screw and 2 each FC57/107 screws. Then 1 each H54/103 bolt. I think the kicker pawl stop bolt is a P/N 37357 and it's a short one.

I looked at some tranny parts and it looks like the spring box pin guide threads into the main case housing, so it should pull out. In any case you can pull the cover off without pulling it out.

Kerby

#222674 - 11/09/08 1:17 am Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: rotorwrench]  
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Well... jist in case ya'll were wondering what non-detergent gearbox oil looks like after a 39 year nap... here ya go:



... and the inside of the the inner cover:



Pretty sludgy but everything looks to be in decent shape... it came apart real nice. the two screws that were damaged came out nice with a small pair of vice grips and the whole thing slid apart like it was supposed to. The mainshaft bearing still looks good too. I'm stoked man. More later with better pictures.

Cheers!
Claude

#222699 - 11/09/08 6:25 am Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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DMadigan Online content
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ca, us
If it is any help, I have a '56 Tomahawk with parts and repair manuals that covers the 700cc Woodsman. On mine, the headlight nacelle and Smiths crono are in one alloy housing. Otherwise, very similar looking to yours. I presume you know the upper short lever is the neutral finder. It only works in the upper gears.

#222904 - 11/10/08 6:38 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: DMadigan]  
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It reminds me of an old 39 Ford gearbox I opened up after an equally long hibernation.

Boy, you can sure tell why it wouldn't shift or kick over. It just goes to show that a person should figure on takin a look in there after such a long sit. You'll have a whole lot more confidence in it after you get it back together.

Kerby

#222960 - 11/11/08 12:00 am Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: rotorwrench]  
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Hey!!!
Scrub-a-dub-dub!!! I see some parts washing in your future! From the pix, it looks as if the K/S pawl spring is compressed. It is a fine wire spring & the rust worms really find it tasty. Inspect the main-shaft bearings very carefully! I would go ahead & spring for new ones if you can find decent quality. The original Hoffmann Bearings were quite good, but they have since been bought out by SKF... My tractor shop connection found/cross-referenced some from somewhere. Beware of Consolidated Bearings...sounds American but they are, in fact, India produced items. Not that India bearings are inferior...I just haven't used any enough yet to pass judgment. Check the case bushings for cracks while you are there.

Lookin' Good!

Bigtwin

#223033 - 11/11/08 5:10 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Bigtwin]  
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MMMMMM tasty . That one ain't been around the block lately . Keep plugging away . I'm one of the strange ones who actually likes cleaning parts . Kinda like new paint in the kitchen makes everything look 100% better even if there are some issues under it all . Keep us posted .
George


57 Woodsman
64 Interceptor
58 Trailblazer
59 Constellation
64 500 Sport twin
61 Hornet

2001 W650
1966 W1
#223070 - 11/11/08 8:19 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: George Elston]  
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DMadigan Online content
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Unless something changed recently, Hoffmann is the "H" in RHP bearings. They dropped some (all?) of the duplicate bearings with the same external dimensions. A problem when replacing the five speed high gear bearing in the BSA/Triumph twins and triples. The high gear serves as the inner race and the new RHP bearing has a different inner race outside diameter and roller width.

#223935 - 11/17/08 3:11 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: DMadigan]  
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Claude Reeder Offline
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No new pics yet... still working on the tranny... got some more stuff in from Hitchcocks. Getting ready to order some more. Here's a pic I ran into while doing some research.



BTW, I'm looking for a used clutch lever setup for my bike...

Thanks,
Claude

#226494 - 12/03/08 2:48 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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Claude Reeder Offline
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Geneva (the swamp) Florida
Still rollin' on this project! I'm about ready to shoot my first mock-up pics. I'm really falling in love with this bike!

I still need a few items though. I'm hitting a swapmeet this weekend but if any of you have any of this stuff that you'd be willing to sell, let me know. Keep in mind that I am not "restoring" this bike. I'm keeping the original patina so the krustier the better.

1. Brit style low bars (the rustier the better! Bent is OK too!... I can straighten them)
2. Solo seat (narrow dirt track style.. torn or skuffed is fine)
3. Pillion pad (dirt track style with grommets)
4. Small cannister style air cleaner (hose-clamps to the carb)
5. Stock seat pan
6. Kick start pall spring

Cheers!
Claude

#226907 - 12/06/08 4:19 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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Geneva (the swamp) Florida
Well, here's my first *rough* mock-up. Triumph high-pipes are zip tied in place. Dirtbike handle bars are for visual reference and the solo seat is borrowed from a buddy of mine. I also used a ratchet strap to pull the front end down a bit... and the tires are vintage tread re-pops at 4" wide.



Cheers,
Claude

#227685 - 12/11/08 7:16 pm Re: 1957 RE Indian Apache (newbie) [Re: Claude Reeder]  
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Claude Reeder Offline
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Geneva (the swamp) Florida
What's the scoop on the pistons listed at the bottom of this page?

http://www.burtonbikebits.net/royal_enfield_modifications.htm

Next part of my project is going to be taking off the top end to see what's going on in there and I have been looking around at top end parts alternatives.

Thanks,
Claude

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