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Stock cylinder head porting. #225431
11/26/08 3:49 pm
11/26/08 3:49 pm
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 51
toronto
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joepenoso Offline OP
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toronto
What year Triumph 650/750 stock cylinder heads have the best ports for horse power?
Was the EPA 750 parallel ports better than the previous splayed for horsepower?
I heard they gave better gas mileage?
Thanks
joepenoso

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Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: joepenoso] #225442
11/26/08 4:57 pm
11/26/08 4:57 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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IIRC the parallel ports are better for power and emissions, but the splayed ports are prettier on the earlier bikes or when retro panels are fitted on a later bike.

2c

Blapper redwine

Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: joepenoso] #225689
11/28/08 1:55 am
11/28/08 1:55 am
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 51
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joepenoso Offline OP
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Triumph Racing in America book states in the back the best 750 heads were the 1973-76 model years. They didn't say why and I guess that leaves out the parallel ports model. I wonder what was wrong with the 1977-78 heads?
joepenoso shocked

Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: joepenoso] #225705
11/28/08 3:11 am
11/28/08 3:11 am
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,211
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
S
Steve in Tulsa Offline
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The splayed port head has the better flow characteristics.
If you look down the the parallel port head you will see a sleeve for a head bolt in the port disrupting flow.
The splayed port head is unobstructed and a straighter shot to the valve.
The parallel port head, however, runs cooler.
HTH

Last edited by Steve in Tulsa; 11/28/08 3:12 am.

Steve in Tulsa
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: Steve in Tulsa] #225714
11/28/08 6:27 am
11/28/08 6:27 am
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Posts: 274
Angus, Scotland
mick2 Offline
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talking of cylinder heads. how do you tell if the valve seats need redone? if they lap in ok are they good to go?

Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: mick2] #225724
11/28/08 8:00 am
11/28/08 8:00 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Steve, I thought that the EPA forced the parallel port mods and if it improves emissions, how can it be less good flow-wise?

Mick2, are the Valves pocketed at all or do they look ok?

Blapper redwine

Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: Blapper] #225728
11/28/08 10:45 am
11/28/08 10:45 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,951
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline
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Joe
Seems I remember a discussion here a while ago on this topic. In a nutshell, The early (don't know exact years) 9 bolt heads had smaller valves and actually made better HP than the later big valve versions. Try a search - it was an interesting read.
Mike

Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: Blapper] #225731
11/28/08 1:07 pm
11/28/08 1:07 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,419
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JubeePrince Offline

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Originally Posted By: Blapper
Steve, I thought that the EPA forced the parallel port mods and if it improves emissions, how can it be less good flow-wise?


Blapp -

AIUI, the EPA-mandated changes were related to the snorkels on the airfilter box and the breather hose routed to the airbox and the exhaust rocker box....

I was under the impression that the parallel ports were designed to allow the twin carbs to have a commom choke lever....ditching the mechanical airslides and ticklers allowed for a leaner burn and met the levels mandated by the EPA.....

Cheers,

Steve (the other Steve :))


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: JubeePrince] #225744
11/28/08 1:38 pm
11/28/08 1:38 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,211
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
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Steve in Tulsa Offline
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Jubee
My understanding as well. A cooler head along with the EPA carb and breathing met the standards - I guess.
But the splayed port makes better HP.
The MKII chokes, however, can be cable actuated from the bars or the common lever. I prefer the lever which is what I have.
HTH


Steve in Tulsa
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: Steve in Tulsa] #225774
11/28/08 4:55 pm
11/28/08 4:55 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 274
Angus, Scotland
mick2 Offline
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blapper - its new valves and guides ive got, the seats look ok to me but not having a known good head to compare to i dont know if the seats are sunken or not, if that makes any sense? guess the best way to find out is run it?

Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: mick2] #225783
11/28/08 5:28 pm
11/28/08 5:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,211
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
S
Steve in Tulsa Offline
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Quote:
[b? guess the best way to find out is run it?[/b]


Yep! Good luck!


Steve in Tulsa
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: Steve in Tulsa] #225788
11/28/08 5:44 pm
11/28/08 5:44 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,839
British Columbia
hh Offline
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If the top of the seat on the valve head is below the floor of the chamber (holding the head upside down in your hand,) you have valve seat recession. But a little bit is tolerable. If the entire valve head is flush or below the floor of the chamber, you've definitely got issues and should either fit larger valves or replace the seats.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: hh] #225799
11/28/08 6:26 pm
11/28/08 6:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Well I learn something new everyday! I thought the flow characteristics were improved with the parallel ports. Mine has a 'bar mounted lever which I prefer.

So what makes the head cooler?

Blapper redwine

Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: Blapper] #225804
11/28/08 6:53 pm
11/28/08 6:53 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,419
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Originally Posted By: Blapper

So what makes the head cooler?


This is pure conjecture on my part, but perhaps given the placement of the parallel intake ports, more fin-surface area?

Also, I believe these engines (E/D series) came with lower compression pistons (compared to the earlier V series)

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: JubeePrince] #225822
11/28/08 9:17 pm
11/28/08 9:17 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,175
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

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In a word "Swirl"


Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: John Healy] #225848
11/29/08 2:09 am
11/29/08 2:09 am
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,211
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
S
Steve in Tulsa Offline
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Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Quote:
In a word "Swirl"


Right. The flow characteristics depend on the chamber, shape and obstructions.
In the old days we used to polish ports. Then we learned that a polished port may restrict the flow/mixture. This is because there is no flow at the wall. Hard to believe but true.
The flow speeds up - flows in a more laminar pattern - at the center of the venturi or port. This flow speed increases exponentially as measured from the wall to the center.
If the wall is left rough it increases the swirl, and so improves the mixture, as the mixture heads towards the valve.
The parallel port head has a sleeve in the intake tract the head bolt goes through. The sleeve seals the port. But it disrupts the flow. So the flow becomes laminar to the bolt, gets disrupted and the smooths again.
It's a matter of creating the "swirl" and keeping it going straight to the valve. Anytime the flow is slowed and reaccelerated it takes power.
anybody sleep yet?
Sorry.
OK, Steve, quiet now...


Steve in Tulsa
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: Steve in Tulsa] #225855
11/29/08 2:35 am
11/29/08 2:35 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,945
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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That may be offset by the better combustion chamber which naturally follows from a parallel port. In addition the sparkplug benefits from better cooling from the incoming charge. Racers of days past spent a lot of energy de-splaying their splayed port heads or just using single carb heads with twin carb adaptor. A little down-draft would have helped also.
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 11/29/08 2:36 am. Reason: No can spell!

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Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: HawaiianTiger] #225858
11/29/08 2:44 am
11/29/08 2:44 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,175
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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Ok, in a word "Swirl."

Swirl
"A rotary or swirling motion given to the charge mixture as it enters a cylinder by offsetting the inlet tract."

Ok, why is swirl important and why does it cause combustion temperatures to be lower?


Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: John Healy] #225861
11/29/08 3:05 am
11/29/08 3:05 am
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georgia
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trumpetloon Offline
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georgia
A more homogeneous air/fuel mixture, with finely atomized fuel clusters will burn more uniformly and more completely when the spark occurs; providing both lower combustion temperatures via "controlled burn" vs "detonation"; and more power since the available fuel in the charge burns more completely. Strong swirl is vitally important in a hemispherical combustion chamber, especially as compression ratios rise since the hemi shape is less than optimum for non-swirl induced charge dispersion. See also "squish" as a means toward better atomization and improved burn.


1974 TR5T
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: John Healy] #225863
11/29/08 3:08 am
11/29/08 3:08 am
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 38
Eastern PA
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Casual Dirt Offline
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Well, I'll give this a shot John. Swirl is important because it helps to vaporize the mixture. The finer the mixture, the better the burn.

It causes the temperatures to be lower because it burns a higher percentage of the fuel/air mixture which results in a cooling effect.


'57 TR6 Original, '70 TR6C Original, two (2)'73 TR5T Riders, one '73 TR5T basket.
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: John Healy] #225864
11/29/08 3:10 am
11/29/08 3:10 am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 50
Wisconsin
MarkB Offline
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i'll bite on John's question. swirl better atomizes the air/fuel mixture...a side effect of which is that it draws heat from the surface of the head (something to do with surface area)...then it (the mixture) ignites better because it's hotter (cuz it just pulled all that heat from the head). (that's just me guessin', i have no idea really)
mitsubishi used to add a jet into the combustion chamber of their cars (starion/conquest, anyone?) this jet injected a very lean air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber (aimed right at the spark plug) right before the spark. it was also angled so that it would cause a swirl. it was supposed to cause a better burn, what it really did was crack cylinder heads by causing a super hot area right between the valve seats.


If it ain't broke, fix it til it is.
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: trumpetloon] #225865
11/29/08 3:20 am
11/29/08 3:20 am
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Posts: 1,694
georgia
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trumpetloon Offline
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georgia
And HT... parallel ports do not a better combustion chamber make... they may contribute to better fuel atomization or some other tangent factor; they alone do nothing to enhance the efficiency of the combustion chamber shape itself. Packing more charge in the space allotted is only effective if you can burn all; or most of each charge each time. I submit that a second spark source in a hemi chamber with pop-up pistons might give more reliable power gains than porting or roof shape changes in most cases.


1974 TR5T
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: trumpetloon] #225866
11/29/08 3:25 am
11/29/08 3:25 am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 50
Wisconsin
MarkB Offline
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while we're on the topic, how does one extract the most HP out of single carb head? my bonnie does alright with two carbs. my arms are actually longer after a few good pulls on the throttle smile however, it looks like my next motor might only get one carb....having trouble selling off my single carb head so i might as well use it!


If it ain't broke, fix it til it is.
Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: MarkB] #225868
11/29/08 3:32 am
11/29/08 3:32 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,175
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

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T good stuff "A+."
John


Re: Stock cylinder head porting. [Re: John Healy] #225873
11/29/08 3:44 am
11/29/08 3:44 am
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,694
georgia
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trumpetloon Offline
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georgia
Thanks John... I try and pay attention. For MarkB... I am also a Mark B... see the above and try and find a balance between the ability to fill your cylinder and the ability to burn; not explode each charge. Better cylinder filling can come from increased valve lift, overlap and/or open duration; increased CFM via bigger carbs/ports, and smaller increases via exhaust port/ pipe design. You must then juggle piston/head dome shape, cam timing, ignition timing, multiple spark sources, and various other variables such as the fuel you can expect to run in your area to get maximum power from any combination you choose. There is no set answer since a change in, say compression ratio from 9/1 to 10/1 is related to each other variable mentioned... tuning is truly a matter of attempted, failed and retried experiments to get good result. Thewre are probably no user serviceable parts inside your strong "tuner" engine... find a local hotshoe and hope to get what you pay for.


1974 TR5T
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