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Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213439
08/10/08 4:23 am
08/10/08 4:23 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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GrandPaul  Offline OP
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Somebody should make a straight jacket that allows movement related to working on old bikes, but restricts movements related to BUYING MORE OF THEM!

I've been talking to Kenny Dreer (the guy that almost resurrected Norton) for a couple of years, on and off, and he told me about some leftover VR880 stuff he had that he was thinking about clearing out to make room for a couple of projects he's got going. One thing led to another and my brain started whirling till smoke came out of my ears.

I came up with a plan to build my own version of the "modern" Commando. What I envision is as near the latest VR880 tech as I can get in the engine department, and mount it in a mostly stock late model frame with a complete dual disc front end from a fairly modern bike, and a beefed up VR880 swingarm and rear disc from '75, maybe converted to monoshock. Probably standard tank & sidecovers, with a Corbin Gunfighter seat (re-padded with softer foam), some sort of very sharp quarter fairing, clubman bars, and hidden lighting. To top it off, I'm going to have a set of pipes fabricated to look like the ones on the New Norton 951 prototype mockups. Very nice TT style tuck-ins that flare out and up at the back into a pair of peashooters.

I already had the frame, tank, sidecovers, seat, and a bunch of the cycle parts sitting on my shelf. So, I talked Kenny into making me a deal on most of the core engine components he had in stock including modified cases, sleeved & bored cylinders, new pistons & rings, and a really nice flowed & ported head with oversize valves. I also just won a 750 crank on e-bay for just over $100. way back on a dusty shelf, I also had a complete belt drive primary kit that I had traded for a Triumph 10-bolt head a couple of years ago.

Basically just need to source a hot cam and disc brake (Norton) rear wheel, and fab up the pipes, and I can mock the sucker up!

Note larger diameter studs on the lower (left) half, right half will be matched
[Linked Image]

This is the modified left half with mountings for outrigger crank bearing
[Linked Image]

Check out the provision for the degree'ed cam mounting with roller bearing
[Linked Image]

Sleeved and bored to 880
[Linked Image]

Dished VR880 High-compression pistons with rings & pins
[Linked Image]

My dream:
[img]http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb...586-457E-9CD4-40554122D0E1&frames=no[/img]


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
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Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213440
08/10/08 4:25 am
08/10/08 4:25 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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I went to have a look at at a decent front end with dual discs, turned out to be a rolling chassis; I thought "what the heck" and rounded up enough bits to check feasibility:

Not too bad of a fit...
[Linked Image]

A little too snug to get to the exhaust valve adjusters...
[Linked Image]

the pipes would clear with the head here, but the engine has to move higher and further back for the head to line up with the jugs...
[Linked Image]

The rear isolastic would be an easy fit to the existing mounts, but there are no front mounts...
[Linked Image]

Too many issues with this chassis, but i might still buy the forks and re-paint the wheel. I wonder if I could shoehorn the matching rear wheel
into Kenny's custom swingarm? hmmm....


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213441
08/10/08 5:05 am
08/10/08 5:05 am
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 154
Tulsa, OK
O
OKcycleguy Offline
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O

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 154
Tulsa, OK
Paul,

I don't know how you guys do it. I just sat down and started adding the bills from my little project. I knew I spent a lot but seeing the number sort of gave me a sick feeling in my tummy. I suppose it is all relative but last year was a bad year and I spent about 60% of my yearly income building a 71 Bonnie, all along knowing it was never going to be worth what I had in it. Then again I built it for me, not with the intention to sell. I don't know how you pro builders turn a profit.

Brian


73 Moto Guzzi Eldo
71 Triumph Bonnie (cafe)
68 A65 BSA Thunderbolt
63 Vespa
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213442
08/10/08 5:26 am
08/10/08 5:26 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,443
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Bega NSW Australia
The Norton motor-G/box is longer than the unit twins and triple even, a triple would maybe go into that, the BSA & Tri unit twins will fit RGV 250 frames. Maybe you could rotate the motor Atlas like but it would look less dynamic and probably still not fit. Maybe you could fit the forks and swingarm to a different frame. And then use rods to stop the motor twisting in the isolastics.


mark
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213443
08/10/08 2:52 pm
08/10/08 2:52 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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I don't have a home mortgage or truck payment, that helps A LOT. I sell stuff that I bought cheap years ago, and make enough to re-fill my play money box every now and then as required. As far as the business, it JUST pays the main bills, and my wife has a little income that pays the piddly stuff. So, we get along okay.

As to the project, I'm thinking the modern forks with dual discs FOR SURE, like the original prototype 951, on a standard Norton frame. The only problem there is that the new ones are all cast wheels, the rear wheel would immediately become a major issue (all the newer ones are a foot wide)

IF I can find a good used modern rolling chassis with a longer wheelbase, like a 1000, I will do another "test fit" for practicality.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213444
08/11/08 8:09 am
08/11/08 8:09 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,443
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Bega NSW Australia
I get away with a 4.5" rim with a 160 x 17 tyre on the BSA. I'd like to go 5 or 5.5" with a 180 tyre but it would get seriously complicated. It would need offsetting the g/box sprocket probably into the back of a modified primary as the little offset it already has has it just about skimming. My SV650 has a 5.5" with a 180tyre which gives it more grip. The std SV wheel is 4.5" so you may get away with one of those, but probably the best would be an RGV 250 wheel, later ones are 4.5" x 17 not so wide at the axle, smaller at the cush drive and sprocket mount which allows down to 36T sprocket like I use on the Beesa.


mark
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213445
08/11/08 8:22 am
08/11/08 8:22 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,443
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Bega NSW Australia
Actually the SV has quite a bit of room because it's a longish 90deg twin with the front cyl laying forward. It doesn't have a full cradle, but it might be possible to make one to bolt on, or hang it some how from the head or front mount;
[Linked Image]


mark
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213446
08/11/08 9:09 am
08/11/08 9:09 am
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 69
Tasmanian Devil country
MrBean Offline
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Tasmanian Devil country
Hi GP, I like to see people thinking outside the square and experimenting with this stuff. However, for me, much of the charm of the older bikes is that they are in fact old. I also like the lines of the Commando, which would be lost in a modern chassis. I like your original idea of changing the forks - you could even change tank, seat, swingarm etc without losing the identity of the bike. Just my 2c , and not intended as criticism. All the best with this project, whichever way it evolves. Have fun.
Regards, Ben

Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213447
08/11/08 1:43 pm
08/11/08 1:43 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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GrandPaul  Offline OP
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I keep leaning back to keeping the original frame but with modified suspension, it's just that it keeps adding up as more expensive. Still, you can't argue with the looks of the 951 prototype bkes. And, I like the idea of spokes AND modern triple discs, they are just so darned hard to find in narrower widths.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213448
08/11/08 3:37 pm
08/11/08 3:37 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,694
georgia
T
trumpetloon Offline
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georgia
Give member Redman a shout over on the BSA board. He owns a spoked wheel, modern forked A65 based special which is clean and well engineered. He likes to go FAST and has debugged his as far as anyone else I am aware of.


1974 TR5T
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213449
08/15/08 6:44 am
08/15/08 6:44 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Kent UK
Hi GP,

Quote
Still, you can't argue with the looks of the 951 prototype bikes.
Absolutely. The upside downies will still work well, but if you use the rest of that chassis, you'll just end up with a twin cylinder crutch-rocket wanabee. Aprilia do them for real.

Now a Dreer lookalike, that's a WOW!

I wish that guy had been successfull!

Just my opinion.

Blapper redwine

Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project #213450
08/28/08 11:57 pm
08/28/08 11:57 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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I just traded e-mails with Kenny and it looks like he's got the monoshock rear end and the blue bodywork that were on the original prototype 952, he say's he'll sell them to me as soon as he reverse-engineers the monoshock setup as he no longer has the drawings and patterns.

I found out I can slip that Kawi front end right onto my stock '74 Norton frame with a set of custom bearings and a bit of machining on the yoke stem. Piece o' cake!

This sucker is shaping up to be one heck of a special!


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #214764
09/21/08 3:56 pm
09/21/08 3:56 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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Got a spare 850 engine with ES, so most of the internal bits & bobs are now covered, as is the oil pump in excellent condition, also got a complete rear disc brake setup w/ hub laced to a 16" wheel that'll be binned in favor of an 18".

Next: Crank, rods & cam.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #217569
10/07/08 9:41 pm
10/07/08 9:41 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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Sep 29th-

Recently received the "crown jewel" for my VR880 engine from Kenny - the head. It's a few pounds lighter than stock, has beefier valves with lightened hardware, and spigots to accept modern flat slide carbs.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Once I decide on connecting rods, I can start going together with it.

Also found a nearly new Tokico front brake master cylinder; so the Kwakky front end just needs the steering stem adapted to the Norton frame either by turning down the stem to fit OEM Norton sealed units, or a custom sized set of bearings.

Now waiting on the prototype monoshock rear and Blue bodywork from Dreer.

After that, there's not much left before it starts coming together except carbs, ignition, exhaust, and sorting out a final decision on which wheels to use or build.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #217570
10/07/08 9:44 pm
10/07/08 9:44 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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GrandPaul  Offline OP
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From 10/2-

After a long phone conversation with Kenny Dreer, more of the details are solidifying:

- I'll be using a vernier cam sprocket for ultimate cam timing on the Megacycle 560 cam

- Smith Bros. pushrods with OEM cam followers, re-cut to a 3" radius and Nitrided

- Ferrea 7mm valve lash caps with Coventry Spares radiused valve adjuster screws

- OEM late spec connecting rods, overcut big ends, polished and balanced on both ends

- 750 crank polished and dynamically balanced with billet flywheel

- Koyo maximum capacity 9-ball main bearings

- Kehin 35mm flat slide carbs

- Electric starter conversion on the belt drive clutch basket & inner primary cover

- 18" wire spoke wheels, front & rear

- Front forks installed with final fit to provide 4" trail

I'm thinking of arranging the logistics and scheduling to give the finished bike to myself for Christmas 2009.

Pix of the bodywork & monoshock rear end soon!


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #217571
10/07/08 9:45 pm
10/07/08 9:45 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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GrandPaul  Offline OP
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Hot Dawg. Here's pix of the bodywork and the exclusive hand-made pipes. I can't wait to mock this beastie up!

The tank is a fuel cell bladder with a glass shroud; the pinstriping didn't show in the prototype shots-

[Linked Image]

The tail / seat unit also houses a nifty tail light-

[Linked Image]

I hope the seat is more comfortable than the Corbin it's patterned after-

[Linked Image]

Nice sidecovers-

[Linked Image]

And the beautifully formed one-of-a-kind header pipes-

[Linked Image]

Something about the lines of those pipes on the prototype is what sent me over the top when I saw the first prototype pix on the 'web...

Monoshock swingarm, modified "big bearing" tranny/swingarm cradle, and pipes are winging there way to Texas already.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #217572
10/07/08 9:50 pm
10/07/08 9:50 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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GrandPaul  Offline OP
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By the way, this is the photoshopped prototype picture that was all over the web when the news was first announced that the first produuction run of bikes would look like this:

[Linked Image]

That's my exact bodywork, and one-of-a-kind exhaust & monoshock swingarm.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #220602
10/25/08 3:41 pm
10/25/08 3:41 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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Somewhere in here are a bunch of freshly Cad plated bits & bobs for the project, so it looks like it's time to start assembling!
[Linked Image]


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #220627
10/25/08 6:21 pm
10/25/08 6:21 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,154
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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Maui Hawaii
GP. Who is doing your cad? Looks real nice.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: HawaiianTiger] #220648
10/25/08 8:32 pm
10/25/08 8:32 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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Burbank plating. But they do 160 lbs. at a time for the minimum!


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #222144
11/05/08 5:39 am
11/05/08 5:39 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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Just got in the hand-bent pipes and they are NICE! Very lightweight and real nice chrome. The serpentine tuck bends are just so nice.

Also got in a set of quite rare carbon fiber primary cases, about 2 oz the pair. I'm debating whether to use these, though, as I am sorted for left-foot shift and not sure I want to go through the headache of converting the trick rear brake setup.

Should have the bodywork and monoshock swingarm in before the weekend!


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #222202
11/05/08 7:22 pm
11/05/08 7:22 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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It's going to be really special GP[Linked Image]

While you're talking to Kenny Dreer, does he have any plans to do anything like it in the future?

Blapper redwine

Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: Blapper] #222289
11/06/08 2:30 pm
11/06/08 2:30 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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Nope, he's drag racing a top fuel 1979 Kawasaki KZ1000 and is already in the 8's @ 160+, he's doing motorcycle auctions, and working (consulting?) for a Harley dealer. He wants to distance himself from his entire Norton history due to the fact that he was unmercilessly ripped to shreds from all sides.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #222671
11/09/08 12:59 am
11/09/08 12:59 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,174
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline OP
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Just received the one-off hand built monoshock rear end setup from Kenny Dreer. This little jewel is quite the trick bit.

[Linked Image]

Just waiting on the Blue bodywork & Keihin FCR 35mm flat-slide carbs...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Dreer-based 880 Norton project [Re: GrandPaul] #222720
11/09/08 2:58 pm
11/09/08 2:58 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 343
Ohio
Beljum Offline
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Ohio

Wow GP!! The design work is extraordinary..it is too bad that Dreer was hammered on this. I think the model depicted in the photoshopped prototype is outstanding. Hats off to you and Dreer for this project.


Go for a ride on a preunit laugh

September 2010 Cuyahoga Valley Ride

'55 "The Mighty 6T", '73 Commando in boxes, '01 DR650, '90 CR250

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