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1976 T140 shifting issue #146819
08/13/08 3:02 am
08/13/08 3:02 am
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 178
Colonial Heights, VA
M
mike2937 Offline OP
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mike2937  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
M

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 178
Colonial Heights, VA
i know this topic has been beat to death but is there any way to make a left hand shift bike shift as smooth as a right side shift, i have 3 73 750 5-speeds and they shift like butter, the 76 is notchy and stiff, and has a high effort,it goes through the gears ok and doesnt skip or miss. i have replaced camplate plunger and spring and its worse,the new plunger was not drilled as deep as the old one and the spring was the same length, nothing seems to be binding it just doesnt feel natural, would the quadrant springs have an effect on this,are the 4-speed quadrant springs any weaker? when i last had the cover off it all looked real nice, no rust or milky oil, im using 75w90 synthetic oil in it.perhaps all the left shift bikes are like this, i may have to live with it? has only 9k miles on it

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Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue #146820
08/13/08 9:22 am
08/13/08 9:22 am
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 7
P
Paul Sinnott Offline
BritBike Forum
Paul Sinnott  Offline
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P

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 7
Mike,

Don't know if mine is typical but my 1978 bike with 9000 (apparently) has a really easy shift, no effort whatsoever.

My only issue is finding neutral at rest. I sit and fiddle between 1st and 2nd before I eventually catch it. It's easy to find neutral on the move, just a pain at rest. Had read somehere that one can file some bit to make neutral selection easier?

Paul


1978 T140V
2001 Daytona 955i
Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue #146821
08/13/08 9:58 am
08/13/08 9:58 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
Phatt Bob Offline
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Phatt Bob  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
FWIW my preunit right shift 5 speed was real smooth. My unit left shift is a dog.

2nd to third occasionally misses when racing.

I'm considering converting it to right shift this winter.

I can live with not being able to find neutral, but missed shifts cost me time.

Bob


Phatt Bob
'95 Daytona 1200
'98 Daytona 1200 dragbike
ex-850 T140 Caff Racer, 850 Triton, Morgo T120, Starfire and Pretend Daytona 500 owner
Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue #146822
08/13/08 3:26 pm
08/13/08 3:26 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 195
Lancs, UK
Peter Jones Offline
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Peter Jones  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 195
Lancs, UK
I have a 81, left change. Never having tried a RH 5-speeder I can only compare with 4-speed.

Neutral at standstill is OK when cool, difficult when warmed up. Occasional false neutral when shifting too quick (I'm not racing) 2nd to 3rd. 5th to 4th is stiff.

Other than that, it's not a bad shift action but feels a bit remote. I have considered modding to RH shift, but too used to LH :rolleyes: has anyone done this and is there a marked improvement in shift "feel" and operation, worth the time/effort/finding bits ?

Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue #146823
08/13/08 4:09 pm
08/13/08 4:09 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
My (l/h) is a little heavier than my other (r/h) 4-sp shift, other than that, no problems.

Blapper redwine

Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue #146824
08/13/08 7:58 pm
08/13/08 7:58 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,606
Nor Cal
Roadwarrior Offline

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Roadwarrior  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,606
Nor Cal
I had a 76 T140 up until last year and it shifted very nicely, but was difficult to find neutral at a stop. The 76 is an excellent machine. They worked the bugs out by then.




Who are the brain police?



Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue [Re: Roadwarrior] #221231
10/30/08 10:52 am
10/30/08 10:52 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
Phatt Bob Offline
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Phatt Bob  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
I've just done the left to right change as threatened, and the upshift is now as sweet as a nut and quick. It did however take me 2-3 hours to shim up the positive stop. On inspection thru the sleeve gear bearing, it was overselecting on the upshift and underselecting on the down shift, a bit of shimming was all that was required. I think the left to right change was well worth it in my case.

FWIW, this is what you need to change sides.

1. Outer gearbox cover from a 650 or 750
2. Gearchange spindle/plunger carrier. You'll need to retain the 5 speed plungers as they're different to 4 speeders.
3. Spindle bush which is a direct replacement for the bush in the inner casing which carries the original crossover shaft.
4. Gearchange quadrant and spindle with the split pin hole. The reason for this is that the crossover shaft holds the spindle in place. Without it the spindle could move. Alternatively, as I did, you could fit a plug behind the above bush which will do the same thing.
5. Something to plug the hole in the primary cover left by the missing crossover shaft.
6. Gear lever is common to both.

Regards

Bob

Last edited by Phatt Bob; 10/30/08 10:50 am.

Phatt Bob
'95 Daytona 1200
'98 Daytona 1200 dragbike
ex-850 T140 Caff Racer, 850 Triton, Morgo T120, Starfire and Pretend Daytona 500 owner
Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue [Re: Phatt Bob] #221248
10/30/08 1:02 pm
10/30/08 1:02 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

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John Healy  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
The "dogs" on 5 speed gears are "back" cut" while 4 speed gears are "straight" cut. With straight cut gears it is easier for the matching dogs to separate as you move from one gear to the next.

When the gear's shift dogs are back cut any rotational pressure on the gears will hold them together making it harder to shift from one gear to the next. This is good when you start putting some horsepower to these gears as the more torque you apply the tighter the gears pull together instead of trying to "spit" apart. Good if everything is set up correctly, but

While there can be problems in the gear set itself (bent main shaft, lay shaft spacing in case, tight bushings, etc.) the clutch plates failing to come "free" is the typical cause. In the final days of production Triumph finally changed the clutch plate they used for 40 years to one common with the rest of the motorcycle.

The clutch pack consisted of 7 plates with a much larger i.d. and a lot less friction material. If you ever picked up a plate from a Japanese motorcycle (or Harley for that matter) you would know what I am talking about. These plates were picked up by Norman Hyde and sold as his 7 plate clutch conversion.

These clutch packs separate a lot better than the original Triumph 6 pack and if you adjust the clutch springs properly (not too tight mind you - more isn't always better)) you will find neutral is really between 1st and 2nd.
John


Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue [Re: John Healy] #221300
10/30/08 6:13 pm
10/30/08 6:13 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,709
Virginia, USA
SBoyd Offline
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SBoyd  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,709
Virginia, USA
people

As far as those replies that mention difficulty in finding neutral, it is almost always caused by clutch drag as disclosed by JH in the above post. Here is a cure:

http://www.mapcycle.com/items.asp?Cc=Clutchkits&Bc=
(click on picture)

such drag can also cause notchy shifting. Drag is more of a problem in post-1970 Triumphs because the clutches are exposed to heavy engine oil and ethanol-laden blow-by.

There is no real difference between the left and right shift 5-speeds. Interestingly, there is no linkage in the LH models. The shift shaft is simply in two pieces and goes through two bearings instead of one. That's essentially it.

I personally have three LH shift T140s and they are great. My neighbor has two RH shift models, one of which is notchy and has false neutrals. This WILL be sorted out.

As for the business of false neutrals, it can happen on either RH or LH as phattbob found out above.
They are usually the result of over shifting and I have this theory that the plungers (dogs) are moving the operating quadrant too far.
I have fixed this in the past by using two outer cover gaskets instead of one. (note: this is a really good tip)
If you are a no-gasket type of guy, that can make it worse.
Never mix-up 4 speed plungers (dogs) with 5 speed plungers. They look very similar and will fit. This is a world of bad shifting.

While the outer cover is off, confirm that the shift shaft and shift lever move freely.

In short, getting back to mike's original question, IME there is no difference in shifting quality between RH and LH Triumph five-speeds. This is a really great gearbox. Like so many things on these bikes, the transmissions/gearboxes just need to be sorted.


Stop the insanity.
Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue [Re: SBoyd] #221342
10/31/08 12:50 am
10/31/08 12:50 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Mark Z  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
There is one difference between the LH and RH setup, just in the feel - since the shift lever is further isolated from the action, there's no feedback at the lever, that is, you can't feel the gears and camplate clunking into place. This isn't necessarily bad, just different.

One thing I discovered, while putting a '77 T140 tranny back together: I was installing the outer cover without a gasket, just to test the mechanism, and every time I put it together, the shifter would bind. I didn't know why, and I kept taking it apart, trying to figure out why. Eventually I figured out that, on this particular bike at least, without a gasket, the cover binds against the... (I'm not sure what this part is called, the stub shaft that engages with the jackshaft). Even with a thin gasket installed (I make my own), there was a slight bit of resistance in the linkage, so I made a thicker gasket, which eliminated the stickiness altogether.

I agree that the problem finding neutral is related to clutch drag, and that RH-shifters and four-speeds are equally susceptible to this condition. The lack of feedback to the lever on LH shifters may, however, exacerbate the problem by making it harder to feel the tranny slipping into neutral.




Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue [Re: Mark Z] #221344
10/31/08 1:16 am
10/31/08 1:16 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,709
Virginia, USA
SBoyd Offline
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SBoyd  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,709
Virginia, USA
.

""there's no feedback at the lever, that is, you can't feel the gears and camplate clunking into place."" Mark

I would modify that statement to say there is "less feedback".
very true

Otherwise, very much agree with your points. The joint at the "jackshaft" AKA "Foot change spindle" and quadrant is a close one.

>>sb


Stop the insanity.
Re: 1976 T140 shifting issue [Re: SBoyd] #221349
10/31/08 1:36 am
10/31/08 1:36 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Mark Z  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
Yes, right, less feedback.

The binding was between the face of the bushing in the outer cover and the shoulder on that "stub shaft".


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.

Moderated by  John Healy 


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