Greetings, I'm down here in the Florida swamp southeast of Orlando near Lake Harney... I've been into bikes since I was a little kid and raced MX in the early 80's when I was in high school. I've owned a number of Jap street bikes since then and my daily rider is a (cafe'd) 1979 KZ1000.
I've joined up here in hopes of some guidance pertaining to my Brit Bike though. I've had this RE Indian for a about three years now and am just now getting into the project. The bike has sat since 1969 in a horse barn and is pretty much all there except for the tail light plastic. In the pic you'll note that the front fender, left muffler and seat have been removed and the tranny side cover is loose because I've begun to disassemble it... oh, it also temporarily has a couple of used modern tires on it just so I can role it around and until I get some period correct rubber purchased.
All my bikes are riders and get ridden hard and this one will not be an exception. Since there are a lot of dirt roads in Florida, I'm leaning towards building a high piped trail machine out of it with the idea of doing some fun overnighters across the state and down into the everglades area. Well... heres the bike.
Welcome to the site. Most of the folks that frequent here have had one or more machines in similar state at one time or another. Many of us are members of the Royal Enfield Owners Club of North America (REOC/NA) but we are more active on this site than with the newsletter. If you have any questions just post them and we'll try to answer them. It looks like your Apache is fairly complete. My Apache never had a tool/battery box though. It just had a battery mounting frame behind the magneto. Yours has most of the correct gear less the front fender. The muffler that is mounted doesn't look stock. I think you can get a reproduction set either from Hitchcock's or somewhere out there, but if you want a custom system anyway, you won't need to worry about that too much.
Thanks Kerby, You can tell that the battery/tool box was an add-on by some home-made brackets under the seat. I believe that it's a Trailblazer box right? Someone told me that it was fairly common on American versions.
Is Hitchcocks the best place to source parts? Or are there some reputable sources here in the states?
Claude Nice bike . The toolbox , battery box is common to most Royal Enfields . Models that they fit depend on if it has a hole in the front for the carb. inlet tube or not . Also whether the hole is in the middle of the box or offset . I have a question for you Enfield Indian guys concerning the front fork tubes . There are various types of top clamps or nacelles . Some have threads for the tubes to screw into ,(the threads being internal on nacelle and external on the tube ), such as the typical headlight , speedo , amp. gauge , switch nacelle as on most Enfields including the India ones . Older type that the tubes fit into the top clamp that only has the speedo in it . This type is held with a bolt thru the top of clamp (nacelle) and screwed into the top of fork tube . I have a odd set of tubes and legs that are basically the same as the externally threaded tubes , but they are threaded on the inside of the tube . What top clamp do they fit ? Seeng your picture of the Apache with the Speedo only top clamp I wonder how the tops of the tubes are attached to clamp (nacelle) Any of the speedo only nacelles that I have come across have no threads in them to suit the externally threaded tubes . Quite a ramble no !!! John
Last edited by obsolete; 10/21/0810:37 am. Reason: mistake
1959 Constellation 1968 MK 1A Interceptor 1960 Pashley 1958 Crusader 1962 Super Five 1967 Continental GT 1959 Big Head Fury/Westerner 195? 500 Bullet Woodsman/Westerner ? #6655 1950 Model RE 1946 Model RE 1950 Model G 1955 250 Clipper
Claude Welcome to the board . That's a nice project you've got going there . Just based in the photos I have seen the airbox may well be from a 59 Trailblazer . Mine is a 58 but has a 57 box with flat covers as opposed to the bulged covers on yours . As was said the Apache had an exposed battery . I will second the Hitchcocks recommendation . Shipping from England can get a little pricey but it's nice to order a part on Monday and receive it during the week . Better service that most domestic outfits . Keep us posted on your progress it's gonna be a long winter up here and we need some inspiration from time to time . Again welcome aboard . George
I've got a ton of questions at the moment but I'm sure that most of the answers will be painfully obvious once I get into this a bit and I really don't want to ask a bunch of questions that are asked over and over again by newbs jumping in with both feet.
That said, this Triumph pretty much sums up the direction I want to go other than the fact that I do want to keep my bike street legal. Also, if I do modify the bike, I will not be cutting up anything and will be hanging any un-used stock parts on the wall for future use.
If you have any advice or direction as to how I can achieve this type of setup... fire away. (high pipe and all)
... just in case you were curious as to what a cafe'd KZ1000 looks like... here it is: My daily rider... a 70's super bike built in the spirit of the 60's cafe. (cheap, fast and loud)
You might be able to use a pipe set up that is made for another make of machine with some modifications. The pipes are a push fit into the heads with a through bolt holding the two pipes together with small fittings welded to the bottom of the tubes. Most of the systems I've seen for the RE 700cc models are either twin low pipes or siamese pipes(2 into 1) mounted low. There may have been some aftermarket pipes built for dirt riding in the California desert in the early 60s but I havn't seen any yet.
There were two different styles of tool/air box built for the REs & Indians besides the layout of the filter set up and lids. One was for the long swing arm models and had no indentation for the back wheel clearance and the other was for the short swing arm version that had the indentation. Trailblazers, Chiefs, and later Interceptors had the long swing arm and the Tomahawks/Meteor Minors, Super Meteors, Apaches, & Connies had short swing arms. The Chiefs & Apaches just had an open battery mount.
It looks like someone converted from the AMAL 10TT9 carb to the monoblock and put a SR2 mag instead of the K2F. This would eliminate a lot of the problems associated with those finicky units.
PS: I might be mistaken but your Apache looks to have the dual instrument nacelle with speedo and tach. I can see the tach drive there anyway and that is what my Apache has with the two chronometric units.
John: I'll have to look through my stuff, but I may have a top clamp the uses big bolts to hold the tubes. I think it is from a G or J model but am not at all sure. All my other top clamp/nacelles have female threads for the tubes.
Hi, Claude & welcome to the forum! Yahoo!!! Glad to see someone has one of the surviving Apaches that stormed around central & south Florida back in the day! You have the serial #'s so you can accurately determine the heritage of this machine through the Royal Enfield UK Owner's Club. Ditto the information from fellow forum members about your machine. It seems that most/many of the RE survivors have a checkered past! Too bad they cannot tell their story, but the modifications often are a clue to their history. Your pictures really got me going, dusting off the memory banks, etc. It has many parts non-standard to it's original (maybe?) configuration. As as young punk, I started out working for the RE/Indian dealer in Miami as the "Gunk" boy, so I can remember many different sorts of RE's rampant back then. Even then, the Apache's were scarce and mostly pure competition machines that suffered mightily due the type of racing around back then. In Fla. we raced what we called "hard scrambles", short track, 1/2 mile mile & road courses, etc.( Motocross did not exists there yet ) Punta Gorda, Dade City, Leesburg & others in your vicinity come to mind. Anyway, many RE's exploded or were eventually out classed by the lightweight bikes becoming vogue...but they held there own back then!!! Sorry, I am rambling a bit & running out of lunch break... I'll ramble more later, but I have some specific suggestions about how to configure your machine for it's intended use! Once upon a time I rode a Trailblazer all over your area & in the Ocala National Forest on those soft sandy fire roads and hard levy tops! Geesh! I cannot even believe your bike has a surviving & correct chain guard to match the short swing arm!
Nice project & good luck!!!
PS: Nice daily ride...I also have a Kawi Z-1 punched to 1015cc with way too many many mods still in mothballs. Had to park it back in 87 when Fla took my Driver License for 3 years... Guess why? Oops..another story, but that is why I do not live in Fla anymore!!!
Hey, thanks for the extra pictures. They are few and far between on the RE Indians. It always helps to look at some real parts now and then. All the Indian Sale Corps literature was short on actual pictures and long on drawings. The old graphic arts of the day leave more questions than answers.
Just out of curiosity, what is the engine number prefix on the left side of the case just below the cylinder. It looks like you have a 57 or earlier case. A lot of the old bikes have diferent engines than they came with. My old 57 Apache has the prefix SMR on it and looks just like yours. The later 59 engine that I have is SMRB and it has the removable cam bearings. It also looks like someone removed the alternator and installed the short primary cover. This was good for racing but leaves you with a total loss battery electrics for lights.
Prefix is SMR. The bike had a battery and my father-in-law said that lights always dimmed down to almost nothing when he was idling. This was his bike that he bought in 65ish and rode it quite a bit until he parked it in 69. I found out about the bike when I met my wife in 92. I started trying to pry him loose of it almost immediately because it was sitting in such a crappy place but he wouldn't let anyone touch it(he's a total pack rat). He finally conceded in 04-05 when I starting campaigning for it through his new wife... at that point the bike was laying on it's side under some farm implements. She over-rode all objections and said I could come pick it up any time as long as it stayed in the family. I was there that night with a box van and by that time he had realized that I had good intentions and was glad someone was going to enjoy it... he threw in the the 1972 Trail 70 that you see in one of the pics for good measure. That said I asked him why he had neglected it for so long and all he said was that his wife at the time hated it and that he was having clutch problems with it... the clutch pulled real hard and he kept breaking clutch cables.
He was the second owner. The original owner had it repainted and all hot-rodded up I guess for what was popular in Indiana at the time. Oh and I forgot to add in the above reply. The bike is from northern Indiana not Florida but I'd really like to set it up in the Florida dirt tradition.
Last edited by Claude Reeder; 10/23/086:01 pm. Reason: Changed the battery remark...
Ok guys, When I go to Hitchcocks and put my grocery list together of parts to replace for my Apache, I'm assuming that I use the 57 Super Meteor parts catalogue. Am I right?
1. Points, condenser, coil, etc. (I was told to replace battery with Tympanium unit and capacitor?... not clear in my head yet how that works) 2. Wiring harness 3. Carb gasket set 4. Airfilter and any rubber connector parts. 5. Levers and grips 6. All cables 7. Brake shoes 8. May need some tranny parts (kicker won't engage). 9. The original owner said that the motor ran good but smoked a little on the right side so I'm thinking top end parts at the minimum. 10. The original owner said the bike wanted to jump ahead a bit when idling in gear with the clutch pulled in... clutch parts. 11. Foot peg rubber 13. Any other rubber or plastic parts that may have deteriorated 14. Fuel line and petcock (maybe) 15. A bucket of Whitworth fasteners to keep on hand. 17. Whitworth tools
I'm sure this just the beginning... give me some tips so I'm not running my head into the wall more than I need to on this project.
...It also looks like someone removed the alternator and installed the short primary cover. This was good for racing but leaves you with a total loss battery electrics for lights.
Tell me more about this... I spoke to the original owner last night and he said when he turned the motor off, the lights would shut down after about thirty seconds. I asked him how the battery was charged and he said he didn't know. It almost sounds like the battery did not get charged or charged very much and just acted like a capacitor... I haven't wrapped my mind around it yet. I'm new to bikes of this vintage.... What's the scoop? He also said that the guy he bought it off used it for "dirt" racing before he put the lights on it and made it a street legal bike. Thanks, Claude
Claude My bad I forgot to mention Rodi's British Bikes in Georgia . Long time Brit bike dealer with lots of stuff . I've gotten some obscure tings from him . No website just phone 770 867 1676 . Nice helpful guy . Also I think Hitchcocks bought up the remaining RE parts from Avellinos in MAss. so there may be more Indain stuff over there now . Alan runs a great business just wish he'd stop shipping those containers across the pond and leave some here . There's also a guy up Michigan way ( Iota ?) but can't remember details . I expect Bonzo will be along soon to check out your bike . He should have the lowdown . Like the Man Cave by the way . MAybe we should have a RE shop picture thread . There's a couple guys here with shed loads . I'm only slightly guilty. George
Hi, Claude & Kerby! Just a quick note... The picture I see is the alternator type of primary & the wires are visible coming out of the top. The competition primary is significantly narrower at the front & has absolutely no provision for an alternator, basically having just enough clearance for the front engine sprocket. Lights are an issue only if you are making it street legal...safety is another issue,too. If it is off road only, the magneto will take care of the spark. For minimal off-road lighting, a simple 3 wire harness will get lights to work... Whether or not you plan to see anything is another issue!!! Claude, your list will certainly expand... I suggest cleaning the carb, file the points, get some correct heat range plugs & make it pop (enough to flush & change the engine oil a few times) before you make any decisions as to what to buy. Clutch issues sound normal, the kicker could just be a stuck engagement pawl, or loose clutch hub nut, or broken primary chain, or ???? Take a quick look inside the trans cover first to see if the pawl (small coil spring operated) is not clicking into position. If the pawl is engaging look further...
I think I've forgoten more than I can remember sometimes. Those last pictures brought it all back though. The alternator is there and I'd forgotten that the 57 had the early style clutch(pre-scissors type) plus low and behold the RM-14 Lucas alternator. The lack of a clutch cable into the primary should have clued me. You might be missing some of the electrical parts but there wasn't much to it. Lights, light switch, dip switch, brake light switch, rectifier, alternator, battery, and the interconnecting wiring. Oh, and I forgot a kill switch for the mag. It looks like some of it is still there for sure. They weren't the best system but they put out more than my old Harley 45 with a whole lot more reliability. The old RM-14s were wired to give 6 volts.
Hi! Just a quick note....marveling at the good condition of the alternator!!! It is a 6 volt alternator & I have a similar one on my Trailblazer, but due to the way I have it mis-wired, it produces much more than 12 volts. I use a zener diode to clip it to 12 volts AC and run 12 volt lamps... It ain't right, but it works good enough. I noticed the skid marks on the inside of the primary cover. That is usual from the clutch hub nut coming loose... Maybe that is the source of the kicker not engaging. My wife just reminded me of the time of our kick start failure on our Interceptor at Daytona 2 years ago... It backfired while being kicked and sheared the transmission main shaft!!! I think I am the only person on the entire planet to have such an extreme failure. Hopefully that is not the case for you... Keep up the good work & keep the photos coming! They are reminders of much that has been forgotten!
You will definitely have to get the clutch sorted out before it will kick over. The early clutch is not to far removed from the later one used on the Interceptor models. There may have been a problem with the clutch control push rod too. Some have several rod segments with ball bearings in between them. This also may have been part of a "heavy pull" clutch control problem if some thing was missing or fouled inside the main shaft.
CLaude Just to give you a litle inspiration here's a pic of my Trailblazer .
I would likely add to your list wheel bearings and definitely a primary chain . Looks pretty well stretched . I got sealed bearings thru Hitchcocks (Could not find domestically even thru Mcmaster Carr) for both front and back and had new spacers made up following an article found here http://www.royal-enfield.net/articles/articles.html . Swingarm bushings are also likely past their sell by date . I did the Indian but not the Constellation and the Connie has the nice hinge effect . Maybe this winter . Guess the best advice I can give is DON"T SAVE THE BLUE INVOICES and ask questons here . These guys know their stuff . Welcome to the obscure world of RE Indians . Don't know if I posted this link but here's some general info .http://www.re-indian.com/ George
George, that is a honey! You should be proud! Claude, ever thought doing a resto back to original? These are handsome and rare machines that are also very capable on the road. I remember being at the vintage show and sale in Deland during bike week about 20 years ago. A bunch of boys on older Hardley Ableson's came thru the parking area looking for a spot to put in, and there was one guy on a big twin RE-Indian. These guys were good ole boys not rubs on chrome dreams. Of course, I was all over him when he parked. Can't remember what it was, either a Trailblazer or Apache for sure. He said he got it because it was cheap compared to his buds H-D's. It looked a bit scruffy but sounded great and he said it ran the same. No trouble keeping up with his friends. As it happens we were heading out at the end of the day just about the same time as these boys so I watched 'em take off. One kick start and that indian ttok off with the rest of them. Sounded better than most to! Enjoy! Don
1965 Royal Enfield Interceptor 1969 Triumph Tiger 650
Wish I had something to update but I'm sitting on my hands waiting for my manuals to show up... musta lost the one I had bought a few years ago. I actually found a 120 page Apache/Trailblazer/Woodsman manual on a small auction site for collectables... I accidently found it after going about 8 pages deep in google. Got it for $18.00!
I've got the outer gearbox cover off and took everything out to clean it up and did the same thing with the clutch side of the motor but I need a manual to put everything back together and I also need clutch cable and lever. In the mean time I'm starting clean all the gunk off the bike... I'm diggin' it!
Well! Here it is. It's prolly old hat to you guys but I was completely stoked that I found this repair and overhaul manual specifically for my bike! Now all 82 pages are printed out and in my grubby mits...
It will be interesting to cross reference the info with others on the forum! The picture on the cover is yet again another version of the Apache... New to me! Note the English headlamp set up. My eyes are not that good, but the cylinder heads look like pre-55 to me.... Yeah, Claude!!!