BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
  JWood Auction  
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Photo posting tutorial

Member Spotlight
Coco
Coco
Regina Sk, Canada
Posts: 358
Joined: May 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
209 registered members (57nortonmodel77), 1,644 guests, and 555 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
revans, Gilly, XTINCT, Bruce Roberts, Brian Ellery
9959 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
btour 193
koan58 99
Stuart 84
NickL 73
Popular Topics(Views)
438,944 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums33
Topics65,290
Posts632,453
Members9,959
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#220139 - 10/22/08 7:22 pm Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . .  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
JBMorris Offline
BritBike Forum member
JBMorris  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
The bike is a '78 which iv'e had for 24 yrs, 6 yrs. old when i bought it.
Ran it for approx. 10 yrs. with various problems: cracked pushrod end cups discovered while adjusting valves,re-built AMAL carbs more than once,and finally,locked up rear brake MC so that the bike was put up for approx 14 yrs. idle.
January of this year decided to run her again so as it still turned over,doused the head with Marvel Mystery oil while the various items were renewed and all fluids replaced with synthetic.
Appril 19th was a beautiful sunny day and she ran for the first time and quite well.
Just last saturday while running she developed a distinct stumble and a loud rattling lower end noise to go with it.
The sludge trap is original and i think this could be problematic, but am also worried about the possibility of a bad alternator due to age.
Any advise for a course of action appreciated. . .?

Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!
Membership Type! Free
Member
Premium
Member
Premium Life
Member
Vendor
Member
Site
Sponsor
Recognition No Premium Member Premium Life member (5 years) Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
Post commercial threads No No No Yes Yes
Custom title No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Upload avatar & photos No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Link avatar & photos Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Private Message Storage: 10 100 100 100 100
Length of signatures 255 600 600 600 600
Removes this very advert island between post 1&2 No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Price Free $12.90/year $105.00 No End
$55.00/5 years
$210.00/year
($17.50/month)
Email
Click on button >>
  Premium Member Premium Life member Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
#220141 - 10/22/08 7:26 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: JBMorris]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 210
choppadude Offline
BritBike Forum member
choppadude  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 210
Corning N.Y.
The rotor would be the easiest to diagnose and then go from there.
I am from the belief that if a sludge trap style motor sits for any length of time idle and then is brough back into service using the newer synthetic type oils that contain detergents,then the sludge from the trap will quickly make its way to the big end bearings. I have personally experiencedthis.

#220147 - 10/22/08 8:02 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: choppadude]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Blapper Offline
BritBike Forum member
Blapper  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
I think this has been identified as common amongst bikes that are run after a lay-up. RFW says it is corroded main bearings.

Sorry about that, you'll have to have it apart. On the bright side, it's time you went through it anyway....

Blapper redwine

#220149 - 10/22/08 8:09 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: choppadude]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,222
JubeePrince Online content
Life member
JubeePrince  Online Content

Life member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,222
Back on the mainland!
Brimor -

The lower end noise could probably be pinpointed using the sharp end of a screwdriver against the engine at various points....at least help you determine if it's coming from the primary or timing side.....

The stumble may or may not be related...I'd do the obvious: check ignition wires, grounds, etc.....

There are a couple of recent threads on here talking about chucking up the rotor in a vise to check for looseness.......

Regarding the sludge trap: you would be doing yourself and the bike a huge favor by fitting an external oil filter.....being in CT, riding season is probably close to over....nice winter project.....I did mine last winter.....

HTH,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#220152 - 10/22/08 8:17 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: JubeePrince]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
JBMorris Offline
BritBike Forum member
JBMorris  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Jubee,
I fitted what called a "CHARLIE" type filter(?)from Rabers before i ran it.
Why it's called Charlies filter is beyond me though. . .

#220155 - 10/22/08 8:20 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: JubeePrince]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,476
GaCracker Offline
BritBike Forum member
GaCracker  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,476
Johns Creek,Ga
Hope I'm wrong, but the noise you have described sounds similar to what mine did after a period of sitting. As RF stated, the timing side bearing was destroyed. Had to have bottom end rebuild. Expensive, but worth it as that was 14 years ago and the bike has run great since. Greg


72 TR6RV
2004 Thruxton
#220162 - 10/22/08 8:51 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: GaCracker]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,222
JubeePrince Online content
Life member
JubeePrince  Online Content

Life member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,222
Back on the mainland!
Good for you on the oil filter!

IIRC, RF describes a failed bearing as sounding like a large-caster wheel rolling/rumbling over a concrete floor.....now, I can't remember if this was for the TS or DS or both....

Not sure why it's the TS bearing a lot of times, except perhaps for the fact that a lot of these bikes are stored on the side stand allowing for good oil drainage on the TS bearing.....although even with good oil coverage, the condensation that builds up in the cases and the oil is what causes a lot of the problems to the crank bearings...

Fortunately for me, when my father had laid the bike up for 10+ years, he put fresh oil in, stored it on the center stand and kicked it over occasionally......

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#220164 - 10/22/08 8:56 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: JubeePrince]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
Tridentman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
New Jersey USA
Bri---sorry to hear about the problems.
FYI the reason it is called a "Charlie" filter is that it was first sold by a dealer in Bristol, UK called, believe it or not "Charlies".

#220167 - 10/22/08 9:08 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: Tridentman]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
Tridentman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
New Jersey USA
A failed main bearing produces a deep rumbling sound. A failed big end bearing is a lighter more metallic sound.
As you have used it all this summer without this sound it does not sound (pun!) to me like a main bearing corroded from storage--otherwise you would have heard it straight after starting it in the Spring.
First of all check out all fasteners for tightness including engine mounting bolts, rear wheel spindle, head steady etc etc. Dont restrict yourself just to the engine as loose bolts elswhere can produce sounds as if they are engine noises.
See if the sound is engine speed related or bike speed related. That can help to narrow it down a bit.
If you cant find any cause then you have to take a deep breath and strip the motor, very methodically, looking for the cause at each step. And then as you rebuild it you can clean the sludge trap etc etc.
Please keep in touch.
HTH.

#220169 - 10/22/08 9:29 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: JubeePrince]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,757
btour Online content
BritBike Forum member
btour  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,757
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Rattling lower end noise? Stumble? Interesting. I do not know about the stumble, but I had a worrisome, rattling lower end, and it was the kickstart spring going south. They rust on lay up. Check that out. If rotor was loose and timed with timing light could be a problem too. Often timing marks will jump around if loose rotor. Stumble maybe just junk in carbs coming loose. How is adjustment on primary chain? The adjuster may go south too. A too loose chain may feel like a stumble.

Not that you should not worry about big stuff like bearings and sludge trap. You should. But I think you would have noticed right away at first running. Maybe not. My bike sat twenty plus years, and the trap was only half full. Not good of course. But I was told the top end would be full of rust and marks from rings. No evidence of that was found, as barrels looked good. Of course the gas that I left in the tank, may have galled the piston, from a slightly leaky petcock. But got 5000 miles out of it. Maybe I just did not warm it up properly in cold and damp. And I forced it to run when it was not ready. I am really worried about that now again in the same weather.

I feel for you. Not knowing is scary after it has been sitting. You will always be worried about the sludge trap. Do you have supply side oil pressure? Probably best thing to do is go through it all.

But check those little things first.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#220170 - 10/22/08 9:39 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: Tridentman]  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
az-idea Offline
BritBike Forum member
az-idea  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
..Ditto tridentman's post..tho 50\50 bet its not a bearing?..and can be located externally..the stumble has me thinking Rotor..I just replaced a broken key which produced a hair-raiseing rumble\stumble when it went..I was certain initially that it was big end failure?m Bearing?...then[open primary]I spotted the dancing rotor!..whew!..

#220244 - 10/23/08 6:44 am Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: az-idea]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Blapper Offline
BritBike Forum member
Blapper  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Bri,

Jubee is right about the reality of why it is called a charlies filter, but it is also called a charlies because only charlies fit them laughing!

Seriously - that is the one that fits really neatly into the bottom of the OIF tank right?

Putting a filter on the suction side will kill your engine esp. if it gets blocked by the old crap in that just started engine (after 14 or whatever years) - this could even be related to why it is making a noise now after you ran it.

I hope I'm wrong, but I sure wouldn't run it any more until I knew!

Go with separate cartridge filtration in the return line bigt

HTH

Blapper redwine

Last edited by Blapper; 10/23/08 6:45 am.
#220256 - 10/23/08 11:41 am Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: Blapper]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
Tridentman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
New Jersey USA
This question of filter in the supply line/filter in the return line has featured on this forum ad nauseam.
I for one am very strongly in favor of the Charlie filter as it gets the s--t out just before the pump and bearings. As I explained in a previous posting the pressure drop across a multi folded paper filter at the very low oil flow rates of a Triumph Twin is extremely small---less that the head of oil in the spine tank so there is still positive pressure at the pump.
But---Blap and co say no.
I am not going to argue the point again but suffice to say that Blap and I will agree to disagree on this one.
One thing is sure---put either filter on and change the filter and oil regularly and with good modern oils the engine is far better treated that back in the 1930s-1970s when they were new and gave great service as everyday bikes.
P.S. my name is not Charlie!

#220259 - 10/23/08 12:13 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: Tridentman]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
JBMorris Offline
BritBike Forum member
JBMorris  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Hi guys,
Thanks all for your help.
To my mind, the rattling is coming from the drive side, hence my worriess about the alternator.
I read with great interest the controversy about filters on this forum and decided intuitively that the "Tridentman" filter was the best.(Still think so)
sorry T3, couldn't resist
For what it's worth,am using Mobile One Vee Twin synthetic oil.
Also fitted a small magnet to the frame reservoir, so will check this out soon.
As a weekend warrior will probably start by pulling the primary cover and check the rotor etc.
Time will tell. . .
As an aside,called a local re-builder about this issue, his first question was:"did it sit for a long time in an unheated garage all this time?".
Obviously the rusting from condensate due to weather changes was his first guess.
I understand that Triumph used oil filters on some of their racing engines, and wonder what type they used?
Would like to see this controversy addressed and concluded?
(Our Tribal Elders are strangely silent on this subject!)
Brien

Last edited by Brimor; 10/23/08 1:17 pm.
#220272 - 10/23/08 1:24 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: JBMorris]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
Tridentman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
New Jersey USA
I did say that my name is not Charlie but after that remark, Bri, I think I may change my name to Charlie Tridentman!

#220276 - 10/23/08 1:47 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: Tridentman]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
Storing in a active heated garage where the door is opened several times a day, and thus the bike is subject to rapid changes in ambient air temperature, is far worse than if the bike was kept in a unheated garage where the temperatures are fairly stable.

failing the experience using a stethoscope or end of a large screwdriver, this is one time I would remove the crankcase drain plug and do a bit of looking with a magnet. Of course I would have previously cleaned all of the dirt and sand in the area around the drain plug before removing it.

Now I do not have a dog in this fight, but based upon sales here of the "Charlie's of Bristol" and several return line filters we offer, there are a lot more people using the Charlie filter than the others.

Because many of the Triumphs raced use a billet crankshaft, without a sludge tube, external filters are typically used.

"Would like to see this controversy addressed and concluded?"

As with what oil to use, where to place the filter is aggressively contested. Addressed... yes! Concluded, I think not!

As far as the noise, to quote Brimoor, "Time will tell."
John

I think Trevor Tridentman has a more authentic ring.


#220291 - 10/23/08 3:16 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
Tridentman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
New Jersey USA
Trevor Tridentman?----I dont really like the sound of that---but---heres the deal John---I will go with Trevor Tridentman if you change to Hector Healy.
So do we have a deal?
I think sometimes this forum gets a bit too serious so it is good to lighten it up a bit sometimes.

#220298 - 10/23/08 3:49 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: Tridentman]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
Being a bit light headed as age tip toes up behind, Helium Healy might have more meaning... reminds me of the early years... well do we ever out grow the elementary school ground names.

Helium, helicopter, you get the point!

Hector reminds me of "Hector the pup", and I have never been anyones pup... Ask either Dennis Poore or Peter Thorton!
John

Last edited by John Healy; 10/23/08 3:58 pm.

#220310 - 10/23/08 4:25 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
Tridentman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,049
New Jersey USA
Ah well ---better stick to the tried and true names I guess.
BTW---Tridentman is the cover name for a guy named Richard Beard. Bit sensitive about the name ever since someone mispelt Beard as Head and shortened Richard to Dick!
Sometimes when I get something wrong on the bike I reckon they might have been correct!

#220311 - 10/23/08 4:33 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Blapper Offline
BritBike Forum member
Blapper  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Wow, small world John I was the methane missile!

Blapper redwine

#220317 - 10/23/08 4:48 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: JubeePrince]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,110
RF Whatley Online content
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,110
North Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
RF describes a failed bearing as sounding like a large-caster wheel rolling/rumbling over a concrete floor.....now, I can't remember if this was for the TS or DS or both....


Either main bearing will sound like that, but for most of us only the TS ball bearing goes bad, unless you have a pre-roller bearing bottom end like on the pre-units. In that case it could be either. Of all the engines I've built, I've never seen the roller type DS main go bad. I replace them as cheap insurance, but I've never seen a pitted one.


Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
Not sure why it's the TS bearing a lot of times, except perhaps for the fact that a lot of these bikes are stored on the side stand allowing for good oil drainage on the TS bearing...


According to Dr. Healy, the ball bearing collects a small amount of water from condensation in the curved face of the outer race during storage. The ball sitting in that puddle of water eventually rusts. When the bike is taken out and run it then takes several hundred miles for the one rusty ball to chew up the outer race. That's when the noise starts.


Now the bad main bearing is a continuous rumbling sound, because the mains are constantly rotating an unbalanced load. Bad rod big-ends make a distinct knock-knock-knock or tap-tap-tap because the rod is only over-stressed at the top (TDC) and bottom (BDC) of the throw where the piston has to radically change direction. The rod big ends usually float on a film of oil created by the high pressure pump. But when clearances increase, the oil jets out one side rather than being evenly spread over the entire journal. So the rod big end noise starts as a tap-tap-tap, and then jets progressively deeper and louder as the clearance opens up.

IMHO paying attention to your various engine noises is the BEST reason to run mufflers.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#220337 - 10/23/08 5:53 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: RF Whatley]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts

So the rod big end noise starts as a tap-tap-tap, and then jets progressively deeper and louder as the clearance opens up. "

It's what RF visualizes when someone mentions the "Big Bang theory!"


#220338 - 10/23/08 5:58 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,222
JubeePrince Online content
Life member
JubeePrince  Online Content

Life member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,222
Back on the mainland!
Thanks for expounding on that RF! bigt

Cheers,

Steve, who always runs mufflers....


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#220365 - 10/23/08 9:08 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: JBMorris]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 790
jays375 Offline
BritBike Forum member
jays375  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 790
pa.
Now I am no expert on these things at all.But couldn't you do a quick oil pressure check.Wouldn't that give a clue to what might be going on.Pretty inexpsensive thing to do.Just go buy the cheapest wet line gauge you can.At least that is what I did before I started running my back that sat.Also was the whole system cleaned and flushed out.I thought that synthetic oil can cause a problem in a unclean system.

#220367 - 10/23/08 9:13 pm Re: Rattling bottom end Bonnie. . . [Re: jays375]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
Yes Jay, you could, but if it was the rod bearing it mostly likely would have "gone Boom" already. Motors don't last long when you start hearing noise from a failed rod bearing.

A screw driver or stethoscope would probably be very helpful to diagnose this noise.
John


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  John Healy 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.296s Queries: 16 (0.007s) Memory: 1.0046 MB (Peak: 1.3631 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2017-11-23 15:01:38 UTC