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#219200 - 10/17/08 7:02 am Aftermarket A-65 oil pump, NOT SRM???  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 95
BSA-KC Offline
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BSA-KC  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 95
Dallas, TX
Got a cast iron oil pump in the mail yesterday for an A-65. Got it from an auction on the weBay for about 50 bucks with the understanding that it was seized but it came with another pot metal pump said to be in good condition so I took a chance on it. I have a stock 72’ cast iron pump I could more closely compare it to that came off an A65 T project I am currently working on but upon removal it went into a jar of oil where it will stay until I send it to ED V. It’s dirty but turns nice and easy and I don’t want to mess around with it(read: mess it
up). On this one it is the outer appearance that leads me to believe it is an aftermarket pump though obviously not of SRM fame. Now I have read every post on this board concerning the A-65 oil pump several times over. I want a cast iron pump to put in my 68’ Lightning bobber and I knew the smartest thing to do would be to box it right back up and send it straight to ED V and I will, but I just couldn’t help myself… I had to take it apart first. I have never seen (an aftermarket) one. I have seen vague references to aftermarket pumps for the A65 other than SRM’s on this forum but never enough info. for even a google search to reveal anything. I took some pics to share with you all as I disassembled it but who knows, maybe these are more common than I know… or maybe it's just a stock body that has been modified with random or easy/available replacement parts???












As you can see it was clearly seized, but came apart with little effort. I was especially thankful for the C clip holding the tach drive spindle in. If there is a trick to getting the stock ones out, will someone please share it with me? Yeah, I know… DON’T mess with it, send it to ED V… anyway, the spindle almost came out by hand but needed a slight tug with some pliers. From the looks of the bottom of the spindle housing it would seem that the tab on the feed side drive gear which engages the spindle crumbled and some bits got caught up under the spindle bringing it to a dead stop resulting in the surprisingly clean shearing of the spindle teeth.
I’m trying not to think about what happened next.
Upon further inspection the damage to the bottom wasn’t as bad as I thought. I flushed out the loose bits and a small screw driver knocked off all the little jagged ones barely hanging on and careful, LIGHT use of a dremmel fine grinding stone flattened out the bottom enough to get a good spare spindle down in there and spinning. It was still getting really caught up in more than a few spots though. I dug up another old spindle with badly worn teeth and put a dab of valve grinding paste on either side of the bottom and stuck it down in there to see if I could smooth things out a bit. It worked. I cleaned it out thoroughly, and did the same thing with mothers metal polish paste several times over. The good spare spindle I had now turns perfectly smooth in the housing using my thumb in both directions, even with no oil. The only difference I detect is the slightly increased in/out play of the spindle when compared to a good, assembled DD pump I have. This is understandable now that the housing is a wee bit deeper. I thought maybe a thicker washer up top under the C clip would cure this but I borrowed the feed side drive gear from my DD pump and found that it takes up this minimal amount of play when the spindle housing is secured to the pump body.
The body is in great shape as are the other gears. What looks like rust in the pics is just old dirty oil that wiped off with a finger although there is some very light flash rust on the outside. I found nothing nasty in the gears, which turned freely after a shot of WD40 however this was with the broken drive gear in place (the teeth on the gear are fine). It is a little sticky with the borrowed, good drive gear in place and bolted together but that was expected and I didn’t play with it too much as I had to return the good gear to its rightful DD owner before my “tooth placement sharpie marks” disappeared.
Some differences I have noticed between this and my DD (which can be seen in the pics):
-The C clip up top, as mentioned
-The casting seam on the pump body is perpendicular to every other stock A65 oil pump I have seen
-The 4 screws holding it all together are 3/32 hex. (threads are same as stock)
-Tension pins instead of dowels (borrowed a dowel from the DD, it fit)
-On the feed side driven gear, the dowel and gear are one in the same. On my DD pump the driven gear is a separate gear with a dowel going through both gears on return and feed side, on up into the spindle housing. On this pump the driven gear teeth are part of the dowel where it goes up into the spindle housing. Parts books for 71'&72' both list 2 seperate gears, 1 feed, 1 return and a dowel which goes through both.
-The area of the mating surfaces has been increased on this pump, which I guess would explain why the surface area for the mounting nuts has been decreased? It is 2.5mm thicker from the gasket surface to the front of the pump body where the casting marks have been ground away.
I am beginning to wonder about clearance issues with the outer timing cover as I remember an oil pump post sevreal years ago by.. I think it was Lannis (sorry Lannis, if it was not) who was having on going and terrible A65 problems, one of which was outer timing cover clearance with a new and very expensive aftermarket A65 oil pump. I’ve been trying to use search to find that discussion but it hasn't turned up but if I remember correctly it was one of the oil threads, which led to some of the revelations now held true here with regards to the A65.
Oh well, when the time comes and it doesn’t fit, maybe someone here will help me.
First I need to get a new feed gear and send it all to ED V.
Just thought this might be of some interest to someone…
So, Anyone know where this pump came from?
Oh, Also does anyone know the difference between the feed side drive gear from the 70'pump to the 71/72'pump? They have different #'s
1970= 71-1145
1971/72= 71-2415
The 1970 book lists 2 dowels but I'm not sure if ALL DD pumps used big gears like the one I have.

Cheers


Thanks y'all.

1968 BSA Lightning Hard Tail
1972 BSA Thunderbolt

www.caseykinney.com
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#219247 - 10/17/08 3:42 pm Re: Aftermarket A-65 oil pump, NOT SRM??? [Re: BSA-KC]  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Looks to me like somebody pounded it on the drive pinion, broke a few teeth and then tried to run it anyway.


A smattering:
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sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#219267 - 10/17/08 5:24 pm Re: Aftermarket A-65 oil pump, NOT SRM??? [Re: Alex]  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,584
Adam M. Online content
BritBike Forum member
Adam M.  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,584
Mississauga, Ontario.
Only person to answer your question is Rich B.
He was measuring and comparing different gears from different pumps having a discussion with Ed V. about them ( if I remember it properly ). Funny, I remember the auction you bought it from and my feeling of uncertainity - to take, or not to take part in it smile

#219269 - 10/17/08 5:25 pm Re: Aftermarket A-65 oil pump, NOT SRM??? [Re: Alex]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,069
Lannis Online content
Life member
Lannis  Online Content

Life member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,069
Central Virginia
Yes, I was having oil pump problems at one time.

I bought a new cast-iron aftermarket pump for my A65, just because the old one was 36 years old and I felt like a new one would be a good idea.

I forget now the name of the company, it was something like MAC but I'm not sure.

The body was much larger than the alloy stock pump that came off it, necessitating quite a bit of handwork with a Dremel on my inner timing cover to make it fit.

On the test run when it was all together, with an oil pressure gauge hooked up and strapped to the handlebar, I got 8 miles when suddenly the tachometer stopped working and the oil pressure went to 0.

Upon towing home and disassembly, I found the drive spindle seized and the worm gear stripped. Sent it back to the dealer and got my money back. Took my old alloy pump, sent it to Jon at Countryside and got it back in good shape, been going good for 3 years/20,000 miles.

No more aftermarket iron pumps for me. Stock '72 BSA iron pumps maybe ...

Lannis


OK, I admit it, I'm addicted to brake fluid.

But I can stop any time I want.
#219271 - 10/17/08 5:30 pm Re: Aftermarket A-65 oil pump, NOT SRM??? [Re: Alex]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 13
stan-a65 Offline
BritBike Forum member
stan-a65  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 13
Liverpool England
Hi KC from the pictures shown it looks like a standard cast iron pump mine looked like the one in the photo it was out of an A70, castings where cleaned up and is still running 30 years on it has bigger gears on one side of the pump to the other the gear teeth are larger and a smaller number to increase the amount of oil pushed through the pump.Stan

#219273 - 10/17/08 5:39 pm Re: Aftermarket A-65 oil pump, NOT SRM??? [Re: Alex]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 387
Ron T. in KY Offline
Ron T. in KY  Offline


Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 387
Northern KY
KC, I see some pretty severe loading on the upper tail section of the pump, both where the pump gears run against the flat and up the drive tail where the long spindle runs. This could have been from when it seized but the gears wearing the plate looks like long term thrust wear. The pump body will need to be flattened on a granite or glass plate with abrasive.

I'm not sure I like the idea of the pump gears on a solid shafts instead of pins, this allows less free wheeling of the gears and could have led to it's demise.

One thing you may want to check before it goes off to Ed is if the gears run true on the shafts. My A10 pump would bind at 90 degrees of rotation, I found that one of the main drive gears in the pump was not true and perpendicular to it's shaft. I had to chuck the shaft in my lathe and shave the high spot by hand to get it true and polish with a stone to get it smooth. It was only out about .0015".

The clearance issue seemed to be a big problem with Lannis' situation, I think it caused the pump to not seat properly and either leak at the case joint or bind the rotation. This ate his fresh rebuild... eek


If you don't like change, you're going to hate extinction...
75' Commando
71' Bonneville
71' BSA Firebird
71' B50 Street tracker
62' BSA A10 Super rocket
60' BSA DBD Goldstar roller
97' Buell S3T
09' KTM 990 Adventure
00' Sherco 2.5
#219346 - 10/18/08 1:20 am Re: Aftermarket A-65 oil pump, NOT SRM??? [Re: Ron T. in KY]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 95
BSA-KC Offline
BritBike Forum member
BSA-KC  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 95
Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: Adam M.
Only person to answer your question is Rich B.
He was measuring and comparing different gears from different pumps having a discussion with Ed V. about them ( if I remember it properly ). Funny, I remember the auction you bought it from and my feeling of uncertainity - to take, or not to take part in it smile

Hi Adam M.,
Yes, I was wondering if Rich B. might know something about this pump and Yeah, I figured someone here would have seen that auction. The other pump is in good shape even though it is a 67'.
Are the spindle housings compatible between early and late pumps? Can't remember right now if they are drilled for the dowel on the driven side or not..

Originally Posted By: Lannis
Yes, I was having oil pump problems at one time.


On the test run when it was all together, with an oil pressure gauge hooked up and strapped to the handlebar, I got 8 miles when suddenly the tachometer stopped working and the oil pressure went to 0.

Upon towing home and disassembly, I found the drive spindle seized and the worm gear stripped. Sent it back to the dealer and got my money back. Took my old alloy pump, sent it to Jon at Countryside and got it back in good shape, been going good for 3 years/20,000 miles.



Lannis


Hello Lannis,
I thought that was your post, sorry to bring back bad memories frown But I am glad to hear that your alloy one is going strong. Is it one of the later D or DD? Your story is the one which gives me the most reservations about using this cast iron pump, after all it has already failed once... hmmm. I do have a DD I was saving for a later project. hmmm... Thank you for the reply.

Originally Posted By: stan-a65
Hi KC from the pictures shown it looks like a standard cast iron pump mine looked like the one in the photo it was out of an A70, castings where cleaned up and is still running 30 years on it has bigger gears on one side of the pump to the other the gear teeth are larger and a smaller number to increase the amount of oil pushed through the pump.Stan


A70 pump, hadn't thought about that. Didn't even know they were the same. Thanks for the info, I'll have to study up on this.

Originally Posted By: Ron T. in KY


I'm not sure I like the idea of the pump gears on a solid shafts instead of pins, this allows less free wheeling of the gears and could have led to it's demise.

One thing you may want to check before it goes off to Ed is if the gears run true on the shafts. My A10 pump would bind at 90 degrees of rotation, I found that one of the main drive gears in the pump was not true and perpendicular to it's shaft. I had to chuck the shaft in my lathe and shave the high spot by hand to get it true and polish with a stone to get it smooth. It was only out about .0015".

The clearance issue seemed to be a big problem with Lannis' situation, I think it caused the pump to not seat properly and either leak at the case joint or bind the rotation. This ate his fresh rebuild... eek


Hi Ron T. in KY,
Looking at the picture again, with the pump in my hand, it's not as bad as the picture makes it out to be although there definitely is some scoring but I think I over sharpened that pic a bit.
What you said about the gear makes sense to me and I had not thought of that. If the teeth on that drive side feed gear were off even the slightest bit in relation to the rest of the rod they are attached to, it could easily explain what might have happened here as it would in turn be knocking everything else in that pump body a little bit off too and then it would only be a matter of time before something gets stuck and BLAMO!!! After seeing your reply at work earlier I've been thinking about that. I think if I were planning to use this pump I would need a complete set of new gears. I would then at least have the old return side ones to switch out and/or around to find a good fit. Thanks for the info., you got me thinking in a new direction now...

Cheers everyone,
It's Friday Night. I'm going to go drink some beer.


Thanks y'all.

1968 BSA Lightning Hard Tail
1972 BSA Thunderbolt

www.caseykinney.com
#219396 - 10/18/08 1:34 pm Re: Aftermarket A-65 oil pump, NOT SRM??? [Re: BSA-KC]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,954
Rich B Online happy
Rich B  Online Happy



Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,954
Stone Creek OH USA
It's not SRM. I have seen their pumps. They are much better finished than that pump. It's also not BSA as the BSA pumps have area relieved around the inlet & outlet ports. EWebster probably knows the identity of the maker. There are 2 in the UK who have similar initials which I get mixed up. Either MCA or MCS.

It's Saturday morning and my head is till numb from a week of crap at work...so what ever I type is going to be brief and probably missing a few things eek

BSA unit twin oil pumps could almost be a boring book of their own. There are at least 3 different gear sets as far as length. There are 2 different drive styles and seemingly some of the lengths overlap among drive styles. The pump pictured is the late BSA drive style which, IMO, is the most robust.

One thing that is common in all styles is overall length of body and assembled pump. The bodies were machined for the longer gears. There seems to be at least 2, possibly 3 different size inlet ports. 2 different style hardware to hold it together, and finally the doweled body pumps of which there seems to be 2 more variations. eek

IME, the internals of *most* of DD pumps fit cast iron pumps. I do have a DD that has an oddball gear length. shocked I also have D pump gears that fit cast iron pumps along with an oddball. I also have DD pumps that have no stamping and an odball alloy body along with late gear length.

It is all so confusing confused

Based upon Lannis' experience with a similar pump, I would be hesitant to run that pump even if it was carefully rebuilt. You can try, but be careful.

IME, any of the late pumps, regardless of body style/material, gear length, gear drive arrangement, etc seem to work fine if you spend some time with them giving them TLC. Then be careful installing them. And finally, run a return line oil filter. Just stay away from the early A65 pumps which were little more than modified A10 items. They make work on an A10...but they can be marginal on an A65. Though some people have them work just fine.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.

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