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#203736 - 02/14/06 5:23 pm competition starter  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
zuckerman457 Offline
BritBike Forum
zuckerman457  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
maidson wi
Howdy, I'm looking for a starter for my LSR 441. I want a gas engine powered starter that uses a tire to spin the racebike rear wheel, with the bike on a rear wheel stand, rather than the electric driven roller style . anybody got any idea, first, what I am talking about and second, where I can find such a unit. email me please, but also post to this query, so anybody else can benefit.
johnrobinson457@hotmail.com , thanks.


John Robinson, Mechanician
Current World Land Speed Record Holder Bonneville Salt Flats
H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
144.396 MPH set 2000
MPS-PG 441 c.c. 1967 BSA Victor Motorcycle
Top Speed 107.371MPH 2002
#203737 - 02/14/06 6:04 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 176
thundair Offline
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thundair  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 176
San Diego, Ca
Try Rob North in National City Ca
He makes one that looks well engineered

#203738 - 02/14/06 10:15 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
dave - NV Online content
BritBike Forum member
dave - NV  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
Elko, Nevada USA
Hey Zuckerman ... Good to hear you are still playing with your go fast Victor. You can't start it by spinning the rear wheel with your hand 'speedway style'? heh

With the issue of salt on the tires, have you considered a hand held electric starter that is commonly used by the dirt track racers these days? They modify the drive side engine case with a bushing and seal and make a stub 'shaft' using a 1/2" drive socket to the engine crank end.

The actual starter assembly is a small 12v auto starter motor mounted on a base plate with a MC battery and solenoid. This is supported by a pair of short tubular 'handle bars' mounted so as to balance the whole affair.

Merely plug in the 1/2" drive on the starter motor to the bike engine, push the switch on the bar and "chug chug BAARROOM".

I would like to build one of these for us, "One of these days".
I've seen the starters you described advertised in magazines. I'll look.


dave - NV
#203739 - 02/15/06 4:06 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
zuckerman457 Offline
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zuckerman457  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
maidson wi
Howdy, yeah still playing with it, when looking at the 441 unit engine, it does not seem real possible to use the crank, from either end, to be driven from a remote starter...seems like way too much work to do... I looked at modifying the trans shaft to use a starter, but still didn't like the idea of that small diameter shaft being subjected to the high compression torque...I've installed a support for the primary chain guide, so that when the rear wheel is being driven, the chain will maintain tension in reverse, so to speak, and is lubed from a .010 orifice from the rocker shaft oiling line, after breaking three of the four kick shafts I have, at the notch for the lever arm, and not wanting to break my last one, I decided to go to a wheel driven starter unit. seems like the easiest way to start it, with 15-1 compression anyway, did not like the roller system either using an electric motor, or a car, seems like there may be problems. got a megasquirt EFI system that I am plugging into the bike, instead of fooling with carb jetting all day long out there....easier to let the black box do it.....and more accurate too....I'll let you know how it works out, but do not see much problem....38mm suzuki throttle body w/ regulator and throttle sensor, 24lb/hr injector, bosch efi pump, some extra plumbing to return the unused fuel, pretty much covers the works


John Robinson, Mechanician
Current World Land Speed Record Holder Bonneville Salt Flats
H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
144.396 MPH set 2000
MPS-PG 441 c.c. 1967 BSA Victor Motorcycle
Top Speed 107.371MPH 2002
#203740 - 02/15/06 10:31 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
dave - NV Online content
BritBike Forum member
dave - NV  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
Elko, Nevada USA
Zuckerman ... This isn't what you are looking for, but FWIW our friend in NC with the Goldie road racer has this comment on starters.
Coincidently we've been talking about starters as son Joel's sponsor has just bought a new Rotax - C&J dirt tracker that's difficult to bump off with the high compresh.

Rick sez ....
"For a rip-snortin' race bike with no valve lifter, here's what I use:
http://www.doczintl.com/
It works a treat, and makes you a popular fellow in the paddock. Unlike a hand-inserted starter, it works for all bikes and you can do it singlehanded, sitting on the bike. Step on the switch, bom bom bom BAROOOOM, AMF!"
Rick F
..................................

Here's what Joel mentioned today re: a "plug in", starter for the Rotax .....

"I found a guy in Minnesota to do the electric start conversion on the case. He does the machining on the cover and provides all of the bits for $160. I guess Jim Woods (Jimmy's Dad?) makes the starters, like the old go-kart ones. I will check with him for a cost. I've also seen them floating around on FT.com. This could be a cool mod for the GS, if we could make it work. Or for your road bike for that matter".
.................................

EFI on a Victor? ooohh. BTW, were you aware the latest greatest Gas Gas 450s have a EFI system? First I've heard of on a dirt bike. Local desert racers report it works great.

Let us know how it goes. There's going to be some interesting stuff on The Salt this year. Hopefully I can do a look/see as I'm only a couple hours away.


dave - NV
#203741 - 02/16/06 1:12 am Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 173
B4450Paul Offline
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B4450Paul  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 173
Saltspring Island BC Can
Montesa trials bikes have EFI with no battery !
are they using Lucas capciters? laugh

#203742 - 02/16/06 2:40 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23
Pat fribley Offline
BritBike Forum
Pat fribley  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23
Ohio
Check out Fast by Ferraci's web site. He sells just what you are looking for( I hope you are a wealthy person). 2c

#203743 - 02/16/06 5:29 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
I've been trying to figure out starting for my racer as well,though I have to admit, I'm not spending too much time on it since, as was pointed out, there aren't even any wheels on the thing yet. I noticed that the roller starters like what Dave pointed out are kinda pricey. Not saying they're not worth it, but this bike's already eating a hole in my wallet. Thought about using an 18V rechargable hammer-type drill and making a cam nut for the end of the drive-side end of the crankshaft. Basically like a motorized starting handle. Those drills have enough torque to twist your arm off in low gear, so it seems it could work. The cam nut would kick the drill off once the bike starts so you don't get yer arm broken....


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#203744 - 02/16/06 5:46 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Not advocating that you sponge on anybody but found myself that there always seem to be friendly people in the paddock who will give you a push start. And even some who will offer use of their rollers. Mike Dixon (no relative but still a nice guy laugh )who last years Sportsman 750 class champion (on a Yamaha)let me use his at Barber.

My Triumph, depending upon how it feels on the day, will more often start with a bump start.

P.S. Hey - time you got some wheels on that thing :p

#203745 - 02/16/06 5:58 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Got the front rim, but I seem to be having a little trouble finding a reasonably priced 18" WM-2 shouldered 40-spoke rim for the rear. Got any?


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#203746 - 02/16/06 6:10 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
dave - NV Online content
BritBike Forum member
dave - NV  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
Elko, Nevada USA
Gents ... For a look at a starter, click on the Vintage Flat Track page, then click on 'For Sale' and scroll down for a look at a 'plug on the crank' type electric starter a gent is selling. I would guess he makes them himself.

http://www.vft.org/

This is the popular type starter you see at the dirt track races. However I would much rather have the type with the MC battery mounted on the frame.
"Different stokes for different folks", eh?

Joel sez yesterday .................
"Yes, I just checked out the starter on VFT. Looks high quality, though I am looking for one that has the battery on it, for better portability. The wheel driven rollers are cool, but not handy for starting in staging or on the line.
You can't really say, "Whoops, I killed my bike, can you guys get out of my way so I can push the bike back to the truck and start it again."
That's when you have your handy mechanic walk up and burrp, you are running again. And for the worse possible scenario; running around the track, begging for help from the corner flag man, trying to get a half warm motor to start again on a slick track. Nothing like getting to the line, out of breath, with a rain storm inside your goggles".
......................
I pretty much agree.

Hey Malcolm ... You cain't fool us! We know all about you Texans with your scantily clad "umbrella girls", who push start your bike, supply shade, smiles, and comfort.
We know!
heh.


dave - NV
#203747 - 02/17/06 12:52 am Re: competition starter  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 118
Ol' 441 Offline
BritBike Forum
Ol' 441  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 118
Colorado Springs, Colorado
A friend of mine built a starter using a 5 H.P. electric start gas engine with a 6-1 gear reduction, a pneumatic tyre mounted on the output shaft to drive the rear tyre of the bike, with two little arms to lift the rear tyre off the ground whilst going through the starting procedure and he mounted all of this on a two wheeled dolly that his lovely wife (who also doubles as his umbrella girl) operates whilst he's sitting on the starting grid,,, too cool...

Good Luck,,,
Ol' 441


Ol' 441
#203748 - 02/17/06 1:00 am Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
"Brolly Dollies" is wot they're called Dave (Hi Barb, Debbie and Janet laugh ) Haven't seen any meself though other than my own personal nurse (I wish :rolleyes: ). Maybe I can persuade some grannie into the honored profession. BTW walkers not provided :rolleyes:

bigt

#203749 - 02/17/06 1:25 am Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Unfortunately don't have one Alex. Do have a beautifull brand new Excell 18 inch W3 but its intended for my T140 - if I ever get it finished?(surgery tomorrow on my right wrist eek )

#203750 - 03/04/06 5:21 am Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,105
J in KC Offline
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J in KC  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,105
Kansas City, USA

#203751 - 03/05/06 1:42 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
zuckerman457 Offline
BritBike Forum
zuckerman457  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
maidson wi
hey J in KC, where did you find THAT? whose is it? I gotta need to talk to the guy....thanks


John Robinson, Mechanician
Current World Land Speed Record Holder Bonneville Salt Flats
H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
144.396 MPH set 2000
MPS-PG 441 c.c. 1967 BSA Victor Motorcycle
Top Speed 107.371MPH 2002
#203752 - 03/06/06 3:27 am Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,105
J in KC Offline
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J in KC  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,105
Kansas City, USA
Zuckerman, 30G is Roger Stirling out of Wichita, and right off hand I don't have any contact info for him. But, John Fike uses basically the same system on his B50,



and his shop number in Lawrence is 785-331-3655.

#203753 - 03/06/06 3:01 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
zuckerman457 Offline
BritBike Forum
zuckerman457  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
maidson wi
Howdy, talked to John Fike this morning about his B50 electric starter. he says its a honda starter of some type, doesn't remember, but said it is important that the starter free wheel in the clockwise direction, so it can be removed from the running b50 engine. he just brazed up a 1/2 inch socket to the stator/crankshaft nut, and built a plate to hold the oil seal. He did say the seal is NOT centered on the plate, but offset some small amount, maybe .040 or some such, (ain't it like the brits to design it like that?) anyway, now I'm looking for a starter like that....


John Robinson, Mechanician
Current World Land Speed Record Holder Bonneville Salt Flats
H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
144.396 MPH set 2000
MPS-PG 441 c.c. 1967 BSA Victor Motorcycle
Top Speed 107.371MPH 2002
#203754 - 04/14/06 1:55 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
zuckerman457 Offline
BritBike Forum
zuckerman457  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
maidson wi
Howdy, After looking at various options, I decided to build a roller starter for the BSA, I need a way for me to start the bike without anyone helping, so that ruled out a passive roller system where I could use the drive wheel of a truck or car, or buy and use a dirt bike to drive the rollers, or corralling enough people to push start the thing. So I built an electric roller starter for the BSA, using a dodge colt starter seeings how I got one for a spare for the race car, some trans gears from an abandoned moped, and some steel tubing and etc, machined and cut and welded until it looked like it would work..... the colt starter is running a 1-4 gear ratio (starter to the roller, then abaout a 10-1 driving the rear wheel,) this makes rear wheel run about 4 MPH in 4th gear, at least until I dropped the clutch, 15-1 compression from the 441 drops the engine speed to less than 1mph, this of course only happens when the roller starter actually gets the engine over TDC, which doesn't always happen....and 1mph aint enough to start this beast..... so I finally hooked another 12v battery to it, 24 v spins the rear wheel enough to start the bike! (first time running in 4 years!!) but the starter suffers ....and at $80 each with about a 30 minute life, I ain't going that route. So I've had a 10 hp Briggs & Stratton engine sitting in the garage for a while, and I decided to buy a comet torque converter and am now assembling these parts to drive the roller system, I still have to get a two wheel handtruck to weld this assembly to, so I can move it around when and where needed...10hp sure should start it! once it reliably starts on a carb, I begin the conversion to megasquirt EFI.....I'll send a pic when this is done, didn't take one of the electric starter sorry....


John Robinson, Mechanician
Current World Land Speed Record Holder Bonneville Salt Flats
H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
144.396 MPH set 2000
MPS-PG 441 c.c. 1967 BSA Victor Motorcycle
Top Speed 107.371MPH 2002
#203755 - 04/22/06 12:00 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
zuckerman457 Offline
BritBike Forum
zuckerman457  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
maidson wi
howdy, here's a pic of the starter, 10 hp briggs and stratton, torque converter clutch and geared drive roller. when I built the electric roller starter, the drive roller was in front of the bsa tire, and pulled the tire into the cradle of the rollers, this iteration, because the b&s rotates CCW, and because of how I geared it, uses the rear roller as a drive, and efectively lifts the tire out of the cradle. when I built it, I didn't figure on that! notice the clutch, spinning as it does at 3600, it sits right behind my knee, and if the tire gets pulled out of the cradle , would make for a bad day....yeah I know put a guard on it. I also need to install an idler gear to reverse the rotation of the drive roller which will also make it safer... it does have enough HP to turn the 15-1 compression 441 over by the way. I have about 2 more weeks to work on the Victor, then I am posted to greenland for 6 weeks....last night greenland was -40F with 15 mph winds where I am going to be living in a tent.... I should have enough time when I get back (18jun) to properly install the megasquirt EFI and get it tuned for the Salt on 12aug.


John Robinson, Mechanician
Current World Land Speed Record Holder Bonneville Salt Flats
H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
144.396 MPH set 2000
MPS-PG 441 c.c. 1967 BSA Victor Motorcycle
Top Speed 107.371MPH 2002
#203756 - 04/22/06 12:01 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
zuckerman457 Offline
BritBike Forum
zuckerman457  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
maidson wi
OK so somebody tell me how to post a pic! otherwise you'll never see what I've been doing....


John Robinson, Mechanician
Current World Land Speed Record Holder Bonneville Salt Flats
H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
144.396 MPH set 2000
MPS-PG 441 c.c. 1967 BSA Victor Motorcycle
Top Speed 107.371MPH 2002
#203757 - 04/22/06 2:03 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,182
Mike Carter R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Mike Carter R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,182
Altoona, Florida
Here is a link to one my Brother and I made works great.. starter out of a 454 chevy truck, plenty of ommmph http://community.webshots.com/photo/250030611/2620031570037332909sjfaqC Cheers

Mike Carter

#203758 - 08/04/06 5:58 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 24
Mr. Dave Offline
BritBike Forum
Mr. Dave  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 24
Nebraska USA
Z457, can I talk you into posting a pic of your starter, I'm thinking of building starter for my 441 as well!
thanks
Mr. Dave


"Keep learning and stay young"
#203759 - 08/04/06 6:28 pm Re: competition starter  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Mike,

The starter that you and Dave made worked great except for that very minor problem with the on/off switch. And it was very professionally made.

I really appreciated having the use of it.

Thanks Mike and Dave bigt


Moderated by  Allan Gill 


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