BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
  JWood Auction  
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Photo posting tutorial

Member Spotlight
pittss1s
pittss1s
hamilton, va
Posts: 22
Joined: November 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
212 registered members (57nortonmodel77), 1,658 guests, and 562 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
revans, Gilly, XTINCT, Bruce Roberts, Brian Ellery
9959 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
btour 193
koan58 99
Stuart 84
NickL 71
Popular Topics(Views)
438,526 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums33
Topics65,287
Posts632,414
Members9,959
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#203110 - 08/25/05 4:27 pm Total loss ignition  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
RossP Offline
BritBike Forum member
RossP  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
Hello folks, not been over to this part of the forum before but it seemed as good aplace as any to ask..

Recent changes to the primary drive of my Daytona hillclimb bike mean I've got to do without the alternator and run the ignition total loss. Can anyone offer any rough ideas on the running time per battery Amp/hours I can expect to get from a twin with a standard Boyer setup?

cheers
Ross

#203111 - 08/25/05 7:26 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 430
T. Sharp Offline
BritBike Forum member
T. Sharp  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 430
Nashville, Tn.
Ross, 5 amp/hour Yuasa YTX sealed unit lasts us at least four practice sessions and two road races per day. Would think a hill climber would last a few weeks. laugh You can recharge, if necessary, with a 'donor' battery hooked up with cables if no power is available. Micro-digital and four plug head will probably use more.

#203112 - 08/25/05 8:02 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
RossP Offline
BritBike Forum member
RossP  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
I don't know about a few weeks - that'd last me a season bigt
But seriously, thanks that's exactly what I wanted to know. I've already got a 2A/h sealed battery but was a bit worried it would be too small but if that's what a 5A/h will do I think it should do me ok. I'll give it a go this weekend - with a charge in between runs if it looks to be struggling.
cheers
Ross

#203113 - 08/25/05 9:50 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
dave - NV Online content
BritBike Forum member
dave - NV  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
Elko, Nevada USA
We have a total loss, Boyer Micro Power, dual plug crank triggered ignition on our 19v Gold Star dirt tracker and have had no problems with the 12v 5ah AGM sealed battery staying charged.
We do top up the charge before events and carry along a spare charged battery in case 'stuff happens'.
A typical dirt track race meet will include one or two practice sessions, a heat race and a main event and the battery voltage stays up around 12v.

One of our sponsors, "Ron in California" aka GStarRon has found a neat little voltage sensitive LCD indicator made in the UK we have on the bike. It's calibrated for a "total loss", system and the indicator changes color from green to yellow to red to monitor the voltage. It sure eliminates the paranoia of worrying about the battery.

Bear in mind the Boyer Micro Power only draws 8 or 9 watts of power, which is about the same as a tail light bulb. This is unlike the high current draw of a analog Boyer, Micro Digital Boyer or a Rita system.
"Works good - last long time". I like that.
dave - NV


dave - NV
#203114 - 08/25/05 9:59 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 430
T. Sharp Offline
BritBike Forum member
T. Sharp  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 430
Nashville, Tn.
Ross, do NOT use sealed gel-cells made for alarm systems; they cannot handle vibration and will short-circuit internally. Waste the extra few grams and use a real battery.

#203115 - 08/25/05 10:21 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Would you be so kind Tom to recommend a good battery.

Thanks,

Will buy you a beer next time I see you - hopefully at Barber :stout: :stout: :stout: .

#203116 - 08/26/05 2:17 am Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
dave - NV Online content
BritBike Forum member
dave - NV  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
Elko, Nevada USA
I've used a sealed AGM 12v 7ah battery in my road Gold Star for umm .. 9 years now without any problems whatsoever. I replaced the first one after 6 years just because of it's age and it's now a spare 'on the shelf' and still holding a charge nicely.

As I've mentioned above in a earlier posting, the sealed AGM battery in our dirt tracker has performed flawlessly for 2 1/2 seasons and 25-30 race meets.
The low cost AGM batteries are made for standby power as used in many pieces of electrical equipment.

Many different sealed "AGM", Absorbed Glass Mat MC batties are being marketed today from Yausa and others and are OEM on many/most/all(?) modern bikes.
I source my batteries from "Batteries Plus", a US nationwide battery retailer prolly with a store in your area. They have a web page with the store locations and battery dims in a variety of shapes and capacities listed, including "common", modern MC applications.
However I've used a out of date paper catalog that lists the ones I use/need. Perhaps you will need to ask for info.
Had I mentioned the low cost? Yes indeed.

as used currently on my modified GS road bike:
12v 7.5ah -- "EverOn p/n EVA12-7.5F
and for the DTr:
12v 5ah -- p/n UB1250

I solder short pigtails to the spade lugs on the batteries and then cover with shrink at the joint for strength and then connect them into the system with 'modern' insulated bullet connectors sold by Honda auto parts. I and others use these connectors throughout the bikes electrical systems. You do need their special crimper that rolls vs sqaushing the connector to the wire much like a a 'factory' crimp. I also then carefully solder the fitting.
Do it once. Do it right. Forget it.

BTW, Do Not use those crude *** connectors commonly sold in the local auto parts store.
BTDT Never Again!! Did I mention "aarrgh"?

BTW, I'm told by suppliers that "sealed gel-cells", are actually quite rare, but the term is still used by many people to describe "sealed", batteries.
Personally I'll never again use a non sealed battery on a bike with the potential acid leakage destroying paint and chrome.

I've found the little 1 ah 'cube' "Battery Tender", type charger sold by Yausa to work great.

A hint for charging your total loss system... Solder another pair of pigtails with bullet connectors to the battery terminals for charging. This way you are not disturbing the connectors in the actual system and possibly creating a problem. BTDT too. Had I mentioned "aarrgh"?
Yup, we almost had a failure at a race due to a much abused wire breaking inside the insulation from the regular pulling apart of the connectors.

There ya go.. my spiel.
Have fun, go fast, don't skin yer knees.
dave - NV


dave - NV
#203117 - 08/26/05 7:41 am Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
RossP Offline
BritBike Forum member
RossP  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
Thanks for all the battery type info folks. I'm fairly sure the batteries I've got are similar spec to the ones you use Dave. But anyway, I'll have to use what I've got this weekend because as usual for me its getting near time to leave and the engine's still on the bench!

"Have fun, go fast, don't skin yer knees."

In the absence of a proper plan, that'll do for me!

Now, anyone got any opinions on the type of connectors I should be using... wink
cheers
Ross

#203118 - 09/03/05 8:03 am Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
RossP Offline
BritBike Forum member
RossP  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
Just to revisit this topic..

The weekend went well and the battery (I ran a 5A/h in the end just to be sure) held up although I was getting low volt readings from it (~10.5V) after only about 10 minutes of running. This wasn't a problem for because there was plenty of chance to top it up between runs but it doesn't quite seem right.

Are the running times you've quoted above all for the micro-power Boyer? Mine is just the standard MkIII (black box) set up which I would expect to have a higher usage.

The other thing that puzzles me is turning the ignition on (but with engine not running) creates about a volt drop across the battery. Does this sound right? Or have I maybe got problems somewhere in the wiring?

thanks for all your help folks
Ross

#203119 - 09/03/05 12:29 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
The other thing that puzzles me is turning the ignition on (but with engine not running) creates about a volt drop across the battery. Does this sound right? Or have I maybe got problems somewhere in the wiring?

Ross:
As the Boyer MKIII does not turn on until it sees an impulse from the timing trigger, you should not see any voltage drop at the battery in this application when you turn on the igntion switch. Are you running an electric tach?
john US Boyer distributor.


#203120 - 09/03/05 1:18 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
RossP Offline
BritBike Forum member
RossP  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
John, Its the simplest wiring I could get away with I'm running nothing but a battery, switch and Boyer.

But you're right on the mark, I've swapped in another (know to be working) black box and there is no voltage drop switching on the ignition. Spinning the motor over to trigger the Boyer (and turn it on) then gives a voltage drop similar to what I was getting before.

So the short answer is the original black box wasn't turning itself off for some reason - so at least one mystery is solved.

Can you help solve another for me with a rough figure for the likely power draw of a MkIII ignition?

thanks
Ross

#203121 - 09/03/05 4:19 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
The box itself draws insignificant amounts of power. Your real concern is the coils. You can determine the amount of power they require by measuing their resistance. Then you must concern yourself with the dwell, or the amount of time they are on, the average rpm and how long you will be operating the engine.

When you get that figured out, I have load figures I would like to examine for a 100 mph wind on the Golden Gate Bridge. Or you could do what I did... ask someone who is using a similar setup to yours. Ask what his experience has been. He might not be truthfull about the cam timing figures he shares with you, but a battery?

Tom Sharp uses a similar setup on his VERY succesful AHRMA racers here in the states. He has given some good information on this subject recently on the Triumph board. While your at see if he will share his cam timing... smile I will pay you big "bucks" (slang for lots of money) for just a clue!

The lower resistance the more power they use. The higher the resistance the less energy they will supply to the plug... there is a balance there some where.
john


#203122 - 09/04/05 1:02 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 430
T. Sharp Offline
BritBike Forum member
T. Sharp  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 430
Nashville, Tn.
Ross, the numbers of sessions that I mentioned were without re-charge in between. It sounds like you're losing one cell 'under load'; 10.5V is about what a battery with a dead cell reads. As I said, we use a Yuasa YTX 5L-BS, change them out annually just for safety sake (then put the old ones in street bikes). As for c m and ca tim ng inf ma ion, not rea ly a ig sec et, we ar ru n ng a Meg cy l 10 ... g d mn k yb ard

#203123 - 09/04/05 11:53 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Well actually John, Tom has bin willing to share his cam timing secrets with me (as well as many of his other secrets).

He has been extremely helpfull with his advice on how to make my Proddie Triumph more reliable and faster as have yourself (thanks John).

Of course I am no threat wotsoever to his evil plans to continue his complete domination of AHRMA and ERA vintage road racing classes with his Triumphs so maybe do have the advantage in that regard.

beerchug

#203124 - 09/05/05 5:57 am Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,875
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Ron - in California R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,875
California
I know Dave would of answered, but I bet he is on the road...

OK, IMHO, scrap the standard Boyer.. well, sell it off, anyway.. The Micro Power is what you want for total loss. Two reasons, first the AVERAGE power consumption is far less. And two, the spark voltage available is far more than a standard coil. Boyer also makes a Crankshaft triggered ignition "kit" which comes with an even better BLUE ignition box, that has a short to kill wire. Yes, Dave's info is based on the Micro Power (not to be confused with the Micro Digital). The crank kit means you get the electronics, but you must do the work to fit it on your bike. This kit works really well with a belt drive, FYI.

Cheers..!

Ron

#203125 - 09/05/05 12:59 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 430
T. Sharp Offline
BritBike Forum member
T. Sharp  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 430
Nashville, Tn.
Hey 'bodger, how can you be sure that I'm telling you the truth? laugh

#203126 - 09/05/05 5:39 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
RossP Offline
BritBike Forum member
RossP  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
As ever, I'm grateful for all your replys folks. I've got hold of a 'real' battery as you sugegst Tom to run this comming weekend so I'm hoping that'll last ok and confirm the other one is duff (broken wink ).

Only got a couple more events this year so I'm just trying to enjpy them with a little hassle as possible. But I'll be adding ignition to the winter rebuild/rethink list.

cheers
Ross

(and keep the translations coming John! I'll learn the language yet wink )

#203127 - 09/08/05 6:41 pm Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,875
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Ron - in California R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,875
California
One more little tid bit... I just finished my 3rd trip to the IOM for the MGP. And as usual, regardless of the class, less than half the bikes finished the race. Heck there were an awful lot of bikes that never made it to the starting line..!

Most of the failures were either ignition or pistons (which could mean ignition (timing) as well).

So... how does that saying to, ya got to finish to win....

Cheers..!!

Ron

#203128 - 09/20/05 10:28 am Re: Total loss ignition  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Well Tom - was a bit sceptical :p . However "Proof is in't pudd'n" as they say. So don't think you've bin lying to me after all.

Got quite a lot of compliments on how good my Triumph sounded at Sandia (did get it back together after 3 hours sleep followed by 15 hours straight-thru drive). After settling-in with a few bits falling off and one or two minor oil leaks (None at the cylinder base though credit due to John Healy's excellent coated metal base gasket)the bike ran great!

And as for the Micro Power that I had just installed - doesn't seem to use hardly any juice as Ron California and Dave Kath are always telling us. Didn't really need to top-off my el-cheapo AGM battery over the three days of practice and racing although did put it on charge Sat Nite. BTW did also have an a brand new expensive $60 sealed battery with me just in case.

Oh BTW, one of the two Ducks that I was competing against had electrical problems during practice traced to guess wot? Those el-cheapo crimp-on connectors that Dave likes so much :p ! Couldn't criticise him though as I had same type on my Triumph shocked I am going to have proper connectors by Barber though!

P.S What a fantastic event that AHRMA, in conjunction with AHRMA Triumph racer Craig Murray, put on at Sandia. Of all the AHRMA events I've bin to liked it the best. Course there's a lot of them I haven't attended.


Moderated by  Allan Gill 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.833s Queries: 14 (0.044s) Memory: 0.9366 MB (Peak: 1.2296 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2017-11-23 03:51:13 UTC