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Spark plug question #200484
04/19/06 4:40 pm
04/19/06 4:40 pm
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,115
Kansas
kboyd Offline OP
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kboyd  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,115
Kansas
My neighbor is still having plug fouling trouble on his triple. He has now switched to Boyer ignition, expensive German coils, and Mikuni carbs. Running a lot better, but still fouls plugs easily at idle and low throttle, but once the rpm's get up there it runs great. He's been sticking with the NGK B8ES plugs like he has for years. Anybody agree with me on him maybe trying out a slightly hotter B7ES? It's all I use on Tri twins.

I told him I'd ask some other triple guys and see what they thought...

Thanks for any help. I'm hoping to get him running more reliably in time for a rally in May.

Kyle


Kyle#44x

1969 T100R Daytona
1979 Powroll Honda XR250 "Dallas Baker" flattracker
1975 XL350 project bike
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Re: Spark plug question #200485
04/19/06 6:00 pm
04/19/06 6:00 pm
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 557
Norway, just south of Oslo
J
jangg Offline
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jangg  Offline
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J
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 557
Norway, just south of Oslo
Yo there triples!

Not being a triple man - Norton Commando - I do agree in trying a hotter quality. I've had success with the NGK -6ES (5 also) - they range the "opposite way" if I remember right. A bit hotter makes it easier for plugs burning clean. Beware of piston dammage though.

As for the nature of "plug fouling" - according to my experience it is often a contaminated burning environment: Too much soot short circuiting the plugs. Due to worn valve gear, guides or bad carburation.

You have of course checked the colour of the plugs, ign (& valve) timing, cam shaft wear... This kind of faults are amongst the more delicate, of course since it is difficult to set an accurate diagnosis.

Good luck!
jangg


'73 Commando Basket - new aluminium cyl
'93 Ducati 900 SS

"Better lit a light than cursing the darkness"
(Confucius)
Re: Spark plug question #200486
04/20/06 2:38 pm
04/20/06 2:38 pm
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 50
Delaware County New York
M
Michael S. Domanowski Offline
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Michael S. Domanowski  Offline
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M
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 50
Delaware County New York
Champion N4 bigt


Never slow down!
Re: Spark plug question #200487
04/20/06 5:51 pm
04/20/06 5:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,211
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
S
Steve in Tulsa Offline
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Steve in Tulsa  Offline
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S
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,211
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
The last plugs I used were the NGK iridium.
Pricey. But some of the TOLers ( triples on line ) were using them.
They seemed to work quite well. Idle and general running were smoother.
HTH
Steve


Steve in Tulsa
Re: Spark plug question #200488
04/21/06 1:30 pm
04/21/06 1:30 pm
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 688
Winston-Salem N.C.
D
D.W.R. Offline
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D.W.R.  Offline
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D
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 688
Winston-Salem N.C.
I think B8's might be a bit cool, I've known fellows to run as hot as B6's in triples with good results. I'm a Champion guy and run N4's in my R3, a friend has been running N5's and is experiancing fouling, the problem with his is over-richness! Triples are notorious about being rich, just look at fuel milage, they also have to be operated at what most Britbike owners would concider "exessive" rpms. They're different animals! They DO NOT respond well to being lugged around under 3000 rpm, they don't clean out and run till they hit 4000. I suspect that he wants it to run too slowly, you just can't do that with a triple. A reving triple is a happy triple! bigt
Don


71 Rocket 3
72 B50 MX
66-71 A 65 Bitsa
96 Trident 900
Re: Spark plug question #200489
04/28/06 1:16 pm
04/28/06 1:16 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,885
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,885
Scotland
Hi Kyle,

Quote:
Originally posted by kboyd:
Anybody agree with me on him maybe trying out a slightly hotter B7ES?
Ime, and according to NGK in GB, this is not the way to cure the problem.

Many years ago, when you could still buy high-octane leaded fuel in GB, I could never get more that 3,000 to 4,000 miles out of a set of (recommended) Champion N3's or equivalent NGK B8ES's, due to lead fouling. Until a local Brit. and Jap bike dealer/racer put me on to NGK B8EV's (thin unobtanium/costalotium electrode and then all the rage for tuned Jap stinkwheels). Sorted the problem instantly, thereafter I always got at least the 10,000 miles the manuals say I should get from a set of plugs and, because I fill the tank nearly every time and check the mpg, I knew they gave a couple of extra mpg.

I've used EV's ever since on the T160's and I found out many years later from NGK that this is the correct way to deal with plug fouling by combustion deposits - use a plug of the correct heat range, but with a wider range. If you try to solve a fouling problem with a 'hotter' plug, you risk ventilating the piston when you start to use the engine as God and the designer intended. And note that results from another type of engine (Commando, T140, etc.) may not be the same in a triple.

However, if your friend is using unleaded fuel (and without any additives), ime he's trying to solve the symptoms of a carburation problem by fiddling with the plugs.

Quote:
Originally posted by kboyd:
still fouls plugs easily at idle and low throttle,
When I got my T150, which I've always run on high-octane unleaded without any additives, I also got some B8EVX's. However, when I went to replace the fitted B8ES's, I noticed these were badly sooted and, when I checked, I found the carbs.' air screws set too rich. I reset the screws, cleaned and replaced the ES's and, so far, haven't needed the EVX's.

Unfortunately, tuning Mikunis is a deal more complicated, but I do know that, fitted to a triple, they can be made to run cleanly and correctly under all conditions, to the extent that a friend was getting well over 50mpg (Imperial) out of his Mikuni-fitted T160, and he doesn't hang about.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Spark plug question #200490
04/29/06 3:19 pm
04/29/06 3:19 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Like Stuart I am also a fan of the fine wire NGK B8VS's (Gold Palladium) plugs because for their tolerance to wider range of fuel mixture. Have used them for about 5 years in my Mk IR3. However, really didn't have a problem with B8E's either.

Personally would be reluctant to use the hotter B7's for extended high speed work. Asking for detonation problems in my opinion for what its worth. Maybe OK for around town and gentle cruising though.

As far as the triples notorious thirst is concerned, I think that this mainly due to the radical cams (compared with the T120) that these bikes came with stock. At lower revs a lot of the gas probably goes straight thru' the exhaust unburnt because of the large overlap. Also explains no power below 4000rpm!

Unfortunately, last time I checked B8V plugs were no longer available. They have been replaced as I understand by even finer Iridium wire plugs. Unfortunately these seem to be available only as resistor type.

My 2c

Re: Spark plug question #200491
05/01/06 12:06 am
05/01/06 12:06 am
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,358
melbourne florida
B
bodine031 Offline
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bodine031  Offline
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B
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,358
melbourne florida
champion n4's copper core wires without suppresion ends and 6VOLT coils.also make sure the bike is getting 12 volts or more at the coils!! check charging system!!! other than oil fouling the bike shouldnt foul plugs with stock carb setting.my own t160 has 28mm mikunis with 50 low speed 160 main needle clip in the middle. it does have a jardine 3-1 and kn pods for air filters and that changes the jetting "TRIPLES ON LINE" FULL OF INFO

Re: Spark plug question #200492
05/01/06 12:39 am
05/01/06 12:39 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,718
gastonia nc
R
raf940 Offline
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raf940  Offline
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R
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,718
gastonia nc
who on the www has B7ES equivalent NGK gold palladiums? local parts house boy said they could not get them////


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando project
Re: Spark plug question #200493
05/09/06 9:03 pm
05/09/06 9:03 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
R
RossP Offline
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RossP  Offline
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R
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
Quote:

Unfortunately, last time I checked B8V plugs were no longer available. They have been replaced as I understand by even finer Iridium wire plugs. Unfortunately these seem to be available only as resistor type.
Hello Bodger
As I undestand it NGK have replaced the most of their EV (gold palladium) plug range with EVX (Platinum). So instead of B8EV you now have B8EVX which isn't a resistor type plug and so should be a direct replacement for B8ES. I used the B8EVX plugs in the daytona most of last season.

Here's a good link for NGK codes:
http://www.spark-plugs.co.uk/pages/technical/ngkjpg.htm

cheers
Ross

Re: Spark plug question #200494
05/09/06 11:10 pm
05/09/06 11:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Thanks for the update Ross. Think they should be even better than the Gold Palladium not that I wasn't completely happy with them as well. So thats great news. Will definately buy a set for my Rocket Three and my T120 Proddy racer as well.

Would also recommend them to Kyle's neighbour based upon my experience with fine wire plugs.

Re: Spark plug question #200495
05/10/06 1:23 am
05/10/06 1:23 am
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 688
Winston-Salem N.C.
D
D.W.R. Offline
BritBike Forum member
D.W.R.  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 688
Winston-Salem N.C.
As to the availability of spark plugs at local outlets, I don't know if it's a situation caused by the manufactures or the parts houses retail mind set. There are some plug types that the idiot behind the counter will hand you something that is NOT what you asked for and simply say "my cross reference book says it's the same thing". I pressed one store manager who started by saying that the plug type had been discontinued (not so in that case). Then he said he could only buy by the case lot from the manufacturer, did I want 250 spark plugs? but ended up admiting that "store policy" (chain store) would only allow him to buy that inventory that "moved" at a specified rate. You can almost always get a $4.00 plug for $11.00 at an M.C. "specialty" shop, but don't look for much help or sympathy from your local automotive jobber, if they can't sell 5,000 units a week, they aint interested!
FWIW
Don


71 Rocket 3
72 B50 MX
66-71 A 65 Bitsa
96 Trident 900
Re: Spark plug question #200496
05/10/06 1:42 am
05/10/06 1:42 am
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 688
Winston-Salem N.C.
D
D.W.R. Offline
BritBike Forum member
D.W.R.  Offline
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D
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 688
Winston-Salem N.C.
Hey Bodger, BTW
I know I'm the one that brought it up, but the "notorious" triple thirst need not be the case! My own example is pretty good, just got 47.5 mpg on a road trip last week and I have got as much as 52 mpg on the interstate at 75 mph (4500 +/-rpm). I get an average of around 40-43 beating the crap out of it on the mountian roads.I consistently beat out friends with T120s-T140s, go figure?
I change the Champion N4s every 8-10,000 miles just because they're cheap, not because I've ever really needed to.
Don't know why it does so well really, it just does.
Don


71 Rocket 3
72 B50 MX
66-71 A 65 Bitsa
96 Trident 900
Re: Spark plug question #200497
05/10/06 8:31 am
05/10/06 8:31 am
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
R
RossP Offline
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RossP  Offline
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R
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
Woah! I hadn't realised I'd strayed into the triple forum. I'm way out of my depth here, what's that extra piston all about wink

But seriously, I expect your racer is similar to mine Bodger in that all it gets is warmed up and then run flat out, which is never going to be ideal for plugs. I have to say that I've had just as good results with standard plugs as the fine wires. The EVX are about twice the price and last (for me) about twice as long so there's not a lot in it. They seem to be very easy to get hold of in the UK too.

I found most benefit from the fine wires when the motor was getting a bit worn and letting oil past the rings. The plugs just allowed starting and warm up without fouling, then it cleared itself on full throttle (like a 2 stroke!). Which all sounds a bit familiar reading Kyle's post, I think fine wire plugs could help but I'd be interested to know how much oil the engine was burning.

Ross

Re: Spark plug question #200498
05/11/06 12:11 am
05/11/06 12:11 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
No yer not Ross. You is very welcome here as far as I am concerned as this is a very quiet corner of Morgan's forum. Well not quite as quiet as some of them even more quieter corners way down below that seemed to have slipped into slumberland.

Anyway looked at your website. Some very interesting pics of Olivers Mount including a one of yourself and Uncle 'Arry's Goldie that unfortunately acted-up so didn't do too well. How did you end up in the results?

Thought that No 91's get-off looks very gracefull. Also found some of the 3 wheeler contraptions to be very interesting. In one photo, the passenger of no 147 seems to be setting himself up for a right-hander while entering a left hander eek

Re: Spark plug question #200499
05/11/06 6:15 pm
05/11/06 6:15 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
R
RossP Offline
BritBike Forum member
RossP  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 139
Derbyshire
That shot of #91 is a classic one of how to crash with style bigt You can tell by his expression that he hasn't even admitted to himself that he's come off yet.

The competition wasn't that good in the 500 class at Oliver's Mount, an uncharacteristic technical hitch for Harry and another couple of breakdowns only left me and a well riden Suzuki T500 - so I was only riding for honour (and second place!). It turned into a bit of a frustrating meeting for me though. I thought I was going ok until I checked the times against last years and found I was a full 4 seconds off my previous best. That's loads and it wasn't through lack of trying, the bike was must just not have been making the power to get up it to hill. Low compression, fouled plugs and an ominous smokey exhaust just about tells the story. Anyway, I've already rebuilt the engine (rebore new piston/rings) and compression is back up to where it should be so hopefully it'll be better next time out.

Here's a link you may be interested in, the results from the hillclimbs are online a day or two after each meeting:

http://www.auto66.com/hillclimb2006.htm

Sorry for the thread hi-jack Kyle and you triplers! There was a nice Metisse framed Trident entered by the way - #90 link to pictures below...

Ross



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