Right guys Ive started the resoration of my 'late-67' T120TT (DU54250) which as far as I can find is a West Coast (Stainless mudguards)model that should be Aubergene and White .. All OK so far..
anyhow it didn't have a side stand .. So I ordered one from an 'expert' anyhow it doesn't fit... So after a bit of searching I find that not all TT's apear to have the same stand !?!?!? Now is this cos the factory put on what they had , depending on when /where / what bits were available ..Cos there apears to be two different mountings as well ... :
Hope you are still following .. I'll try to explain..
I ordered part number F7373 as per the book and got a stand that looks right and has F7321 cast into it (which I've seen on others and am told it is right)..
1 - My stand is 9 1/2" long
2 - I've got info off another owner TT(Early 67)that he has the same type of stand but his is 8 1/2" long.
3 - I have pics of the TT(early 67) in the National M/c Museum in England that has the same style stand but the lug mounting on the frame appears to be a sort of strap with a block on it
4 - I have other pics (off the internet) of 66 TT (east coast-painted guards and west coast-alloy guards) that have what appears to be a sort of Std Bonny style 'curved-rod' style stand and the mounting is a sort of boss on the frame tube with a std looking lug.
5 - I also have a pic of a fully restored late 67 (west coast) TT which should be exactly like mine with the F7373 type stand.
6 - The lug on mine looks like a std Bonny (I've lookd a a few 70's ones that I've seen about), but as far as I can tell the frame is original and the numbers match the engine..
So anyone any ideas ??? and if all I need is the Std looking bonny stand does anyone have a part number or pic...
I do have loads of pics if anyone wants to see them but I'm hoping some one will have an easy answer.
BTW , I'm not overtly bothered about it being 'factory' correct but I'd like to know why there are differences , cos the book doesn't say and none of the 'experts' I've asked could tell me anything.
If your sidestand lug looks, as you say, like the 70's models you've looked at, it is incorrect for the 67 frame, and for the 67 sidestand. As Jon said, the lug and stand changed in 68 to what many consider a better setup. As the earlier style lugs were prone to breaking, sometimes they would be replaced with the later assemblies (I did just that to a 67, so it has a later sidestand and lug on it).
Post a picture of what you have, it will settle conjecture...
Re: T120 TT side stand#143668 06/27/084:40 pm06/27/084:40 pm
John .. nope the frame lug is 1/2" thick and the slot in the sidestand is 5/8" so the lug is thinner ... However if the Lug was changed in 67 for a thinner one then I guess I have a very late 67 frame ??? Which would be fine as long as I can get a stand that fits.. cos even if I put a spacer in the lug is the wrong shape to allow the stand to fully retract or extend.. ?!?!?
Rick .. yes it does have to tubular lugs welded to the front of the headstock ??? Which are not shown on the frame drg I have in the parts book ?? ( I never noticed )
Re: T120 TT side stand#143669 06/29/082:05 pm06/29/082:05 pm
Steve ... I'll post up pics as soon as I work out how too ...
as for the frame lug being 'wrong' well the frame is unmodified and has no decernible marks that it didn't leave the factory like that ... And we all know that Triumph was like every other factory at that time ... so built and used whatever was to hand, despite what the factory model bokk stell you ...Which is why sometimes it's so hard to find bits , cos however much the 'man' insists that a part id for a certain model , if it don't fit then it just don't fit... I can make anything fit but I like to know what I'm starting with ...
Anyhow I'll see how my pic posting is going
Right my lug ???
Lug on the early 67 TT in the Museum
Lug on a 66 TT (DU39426)( looks like mine as far as I can tell) and a pic with the stand extended , which is not yer 'std' TT stand ( so I'm told)
Re: T120 TT side stand#143670 06/29/082:27 pm06/29/082:27 pm
I don't think there is anything special about a TT frame. I had a look at my 1967 TR6R and the stand is 9 1/2" long overall and is similar looking to the one in your last picture. The lug on mine looks the same as the one you have in the picture marked as "Early 67 TT in the museum".
Mine has the fairing lugs on the headstock which yours should have too so you don't have to worry about that!
That '66 TT has got the wrong stand, if it matters.
Re: T120 TT side stand#143672 06/29/084:06 pm06/29/084:06 pm
Dave , No there isn't anything special about a TT as far as I know , whatI'm trying to find out is why a 'socalled' TT stand doesn't fit ..Seems to me there are two types of frame lugs, however the 66 one has a lug like mine but the 67 has a different one ( sort of a thick block on a strap ) however why are they different cos the factory may have changed them but did they interchange them , which they may have done .... but the 66 is like my 67 , but the 67 museum bike is how I understand ppl think they should be .... The stand on the 66 bike would be fine for mine , however I don;t know what the part number is ???? if it fits mine than i'll use one... However Iwould like to know why there are so many inconsistencies ...errr if possible..
Re: T120 TT side stand#143674 06/29/084:39 pm06/29/084:39 pm
"Lug on a 66 TT (DU39426)( looks like mine as far as I can tell) and a pic with the stand extended , which is not yer 'std' TT stand ( so I'm told)"
Not the side stand or lug that came standard on a 1966 frame.
Side stand length for the 1966 and earlier TT's was a function of the 3:50 tire fitted to the front wheel. It required a longer stand for the bike to sit properly.
As a note: The late side stand lugs have been available as a spare part and many retro-fitted to earlier bikes. This was a common, if an assualt to accuraccy and history, repair. John
With all do respect to the effort put forth by the National Motorcycle Museum, it is the LAST place where I would go to verify how the bikes were made.
Now I don't know if the TT you refer to is the same one that sat in the corridor accessing the competition hall (where fire did a lot of its damage), but that was the worst example of a TT I have ever seen!!!!!
There was little of historic significance that was right.
Re: T120 TT side stand#143675 06/29/086:19 pm06/29/086:19 pm
Well John ... the museum one may well not be as it left the factory ... errr but worst example !!! ..surly it can't be that bad ... it's in a dam sight better condition than mine..LOL As for going elsewhere for info ..well not many TT's proped against walls where I live so since I was at teh museum it seems a good enough place to get some info...
However ... i didn't even know you could get a 'spare' stand lug ... it's not listed in anything I've found ... so any info would be handy..
As for the none std 66 TT ... that stand will do for me if it fits' '' so anyone know the part number or better still got one for sale..
BTW .. this is mine 67 TT ( original as far as I know ( paint is wrong but then i'll be painting it ) it also has 750 Morgo kit fitted , as sent to America , so the records at Morgo say, mine was exported by Smiths of Wigan in 75 , the kit not the bike ... I have no history of the bike
Anyhow what I need is a stand that fit and works so I can tidy up the lug, and get my frame coated so I can at least start this resto ... I'm hopeing to get it finished for the 50th aniverasary party next year
Re: T120 TT side stand#143676 06/29/087:51 pm06/29/087:51 pm
Action man- The lug on my 67 TR6R is about 5/8" thick and I thought that they all looked like the lug in the picture until they changed for the new style stand. The 67 UK standard T120 had a very spindly 3.00 ribbed front tyre to try to improve the steering so the short stand would have been ok on that one, I suppose.
I think the lug is at a different angle for the later style stand with the bend at the end, like in the 66 TT pic you posted.
I wouldn't worry too much as maybe the original one on yours broke off so had a later lug put on, if that's possible. I read once that the American style of starting the bike on the side stand damaged this part.
Re: T120 TT side stand#143677 06/29/088:58 pm06/29/088:58 pm
OK, the lug on your bike looks like the 68 and later style. Those were 1/2" thick...the lugs through 67 were 9/16' thick. The 67 and earlier had a "rib" cast into the top portion of the ring that supported the lug...that has been cut down and altered on the museum bike to accept the later side stand. This rib will have a cast stamp of F5268 on it.
The correct side stand for the 67 TT is supposedly a one year special...it was like the Mountain Cub stand of the same year, had an extension of about 1" welded onto the bottom of the footpad (an open box affair, 2 sides and an additional footpad). I occasionally see them pop up on eBay, part of the Sandy Bandit stash...
Baxter Cycle has a retrofit lug/ring assembly for 67 and earlier, perfect in every detail...and pricey. The ring has to be cut, welded onto the frame, and filled in and cleaned up, but it can be done so as to be undetectable from original. There are also retrofit assemblies for the 68 and later available from a number of dealers, even seen them on eBay.
As mentioned, you probably need the 68/later stand. Sorry I don't know the part number, I'm sure someone here can help you out...put a WTB ad on the Garage Sale Board.
Form vs Function...it may not be correct form for your bike, but I believe it functions better than the earlier version!
Re: T120 TT side stand#143678 06/30/085:23 pm06/30/085:23 pm
However as far as I can tell my frame is original and so is the lug ...mabe my TT was late and even so late it should have been a 68...errr which they say were never built, even if the stickers were ordered ... LOL
Anyhow looks like I've got a late fitment lug , which wouldn't surprise me, afterall knowing the mess Britich industry was in in the late 60's then no wonder the books don't match what was built ... but lets not go into that...
So anyway I think the later stand ..as depicted on the '66' TT above will be fine for me ... Cos I start my bikes on the side stand ...
Anyone know the part number ?????
Re: T120 TT side stand#143680 06/30/089:35 pm06/30/089:35 pm
The late side stand (1968-up) mounted on the 1966 TT above part number is 83-1560.
"'late-67' T120TT (DU54250)" Your bike is a mid-year model - not late as you indicate.
1967 motor numbers started with 44394 and ended with 66245. 54250 is approx mid-year.
"Anyhow looks like I've got a late fitment lug , which wouldn't surprise me, afterall knowing the mess Britich industry was in in the late 60's then no wonder the books don't match what was built ... but lets not go into that..."
Believe what you will, but it does not make it true. Installing the late side stand boss was a common repair, especially when people started the bike on the side stand.
So let's open a big can of worms... is the frame really a 1967? Is the bike really a TT? That is the first question I would ask if I saw a 1967 TT with a 1968 side stand lug. How long is the fork lock boss on the frame lug? Is is short enough so the lock can engae while the forks are straight ahead. Or is the boss extended so that the lock will not engage while the forks are straight ahead.
My experience always make me look for mischief while you are looking for some factory miss-adventure. There was a lot more mischief than abnormalites done by the factory. There was also a lot of repair work done on these units and this is a common one.
And yes, if it is the same TT that was there before the fire, it was the worst representation of a 1966 TT I have ever seen! Paint scheme-wrong, stripes parallel, color-wrong, tire sizes-wrong, speedo drive-shouldn't have had one, grey top seat- should be black, handlebars - looked like 1973 T140, ignition system- battery, carburetors, wrong kill button (battery model, not ET ignition), etc, etc. John
Re: T120 TT side stand#143681 06/30/089:58 pm06/30/089:58 pm
Well, the lug is what it is...but a replacement lug can be installed very cleanly, and I doubt that we are looking at original frame paint on your bike. So, I would guess it isn't a factory installation.
A personal opinion here- On a conventional Bonneville, I would look at it as an improvement (as mentioned, I did it to my 67 that had a broken stock lug)...but on a TT, especially one that you will be stripping for powdercoat, I would give serious consideration to getting the correct lug and installing it first. The TT is a pretty valuable bike, and a lot of the value lies in its being "correct". The sidestand is a 50 foot give-away. This $150 repair job may easily be worth $1000 in resale value at some point. And it will be much more difficult to do later (I have a 66 TT, also with a broken lug, and am replacing it with the correct one from Baxters that I mentioned...so I guess I'm practicing what I preach, heh-heh).
Best of luck with your project...a TT Special in England has to be a real rarity!
Re: T120 TT side stand#143682 07/01/087:25 pm07/01/087:25 pm
John ... well what can I say ... I guess you can spot em .... I can do the same with RDLC's however I don't decry people for having none std bikes... I don't think anything I have is std , cos cost and useage mean they can't be or that improvements are better , just my opinion and I do love to see bike how the books say they shuold be, even if the factory didn't always build em like that... And I never said mine was a Late 67 .. I said it might be ... the late 67 is written 'late67' using '' which means it may not be fact ...I dunno
So how long does the - Fork lock boss need to be ... mine looks like 1" ??
I have no idea if it's all original kit ... and I do know some people will try to disguise stuff ... if mine aint original then I got burnt with the cost , however it's got the right numbers and the log book say TT and the numbers match , and I guess the records would show the numbers did exist ... is mine real , err dunno , it is as far as I could tel, but then I'm no expert on Triumphs... and had I waited until I was an expert on stuff before Ibought it then I'd never buy owt ... I'll build it as best I can and it'll be what it is ... However I do still need a side stand
Anyhow here is a pic of my lock and a few of the TT I saw in the National Museum in 2006 - After the Fire
Steve... a $150 part to get to me would end up costing $300 then I'd have to have it fitted another $200 so it'd be a $500 job... errr hardly worth it since the TT aint for sale and I want to use it , so a faulty part is a waste of cash ..I also have a FirBird Scrambler to do and my Mate wants a P11 , then we can play at 60 raceing ...so no point in being to perfect cos they will get crashed.
As much as I'd agree with you my TT will never be 'book' perfect ... it would cost way way to much money to do it that way and never ever be worth it .... Things are expensive in England.. A Nut bolt - restoration for a perfect RD350LC will cost you about £5000 (about $10000) ...I nkow cos I've done it... A restored Norton P11 is £12000 (about $24000 ) cos a guy near me i is the bloke that does them and ships them all over the world... to restore my TT to original would be about £5000 .... so no point cos I can buy one for about £7000 - £9000 ..
Re: T120 TT side stand#143683 07/01/087:27 pm07/01/087:27 pm
BTW .... just out of interest .. here is my ..very un original RD350LC .. which I spent way way more then I should and so it took me 3 years to do and is probably worth nowt if I sold it ... errr cept it aint for sale ...I know it aint british , but my other stuff is ...anyhow the modorators can delete the pic if they don't think it shuold be here