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#143260 - 06/21/08 2:54 pm Amal MK1 settings T140V  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 139
hein weijers Offline
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hein weijers  Offline
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Posts: 139
The Netherlands..
Since yesterday I am back on the road after a major restoration job. The only plan was to balance the crankshaft dynamically but having the engine split anyway I also replaced some other stuff.
The balancing changed the bike into a smoother running machine without taking away the feeling of driving a Bonneville. So I can use the mirror now and my butt is not dead after 30 minutes.
The problem I (still) have is the carburettor setting. I already replaced the jets and the needle and the throttle slides and everything is according the manual now:
main jet: 190
needle jet: .106
position: 1 (lowest)
cutaway: 3
There are two problems:
The first is that there is a "gap" between idling and little throttle opening. Pulling away out of a corner cannot be done smoothly.
The second is that the bike holds back at full throttle after a couple of seconds. It seems to be a too small main jet but partly closing the air valve doesn't improve running.
The plugs look great and not too hot at all.
Between 1/4 to 3/4 throttle the bike runs great.
Any suggestions?

Is there anyone who has experience with the Mikuni carb set of MAP?

Kind regards, Hein


Triumph Bonneville T140 1978
Yamaha XS 650 Heritage special 1982 (rephased, big bore)
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#143261 - 06/21/08 3:47 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
RF Whatley Online content
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RF Whatley  Online Content
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Posts: 11,108
North Georgia, USA
Hein -
Also, just as important are ...
Matching float levels
Matching slide heights
Ignition timing and advance
Correct spark plugs
New carb balance tube
Cleared pilot jets
New metal-core plug wires
Tight intake manifolds
6 correct Triumph o-rings on the manifolds
Filling the bolt hole if the choke lever is removed
Filling the cable holes if the chokes are removed


THEN we can talk about your issue! laugh

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#143262 - 06/21/08 11:05 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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hein weijers Offline
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hein weijers  Offline
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Posts: 139
The Netherlands..
Hi.RF

Only item 7 is not done: why metal core?
What 6 o-rings do you mean? I replaced the big main o-ring and the 2 small 0-rings on the airscrew and throttle slide screw. X2=6?
Any comment on the Mikuni option?

Kind regards, Hein


Triumph Bonneville T140 1978
Yamaha XS 650 Heritage special 1982 (rephased, big bore)
#143263 - 06/22/08 1:34 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
Joined: Mar 2005
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John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
Boston, Massachusetts
2 622/082
2 70-9711
2 70-9554
6

On a motorcycle, where the spark plug wires are not fully supported as they are in automobiles, the carbon core wires are prone to breaking internally. This dramatically increases the spark plug wires internal resitance. When the carbon core breaks it greatly increases the chance the bike will suffer from driveability problems.
John


#143264 - 06/22/08 3:48 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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Steve in Tulsa Offline
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Steve in Tulsa  Offline
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Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
What I like is you have described the problems in relation to throttle position.
Try full throttle running with both petcocks open. A fuel flow issue comes to mind and has been noted on T140s.
Second on both my T140s I run 3 1/2 slides. You can try running the idle jets a little lean and then rich to see if the problem lessens or worsens. But, at least here in the states with the changes in fuel volatility, I find 3 1/2 works better.
Re-check all of RF's suggestions particularly the slide height AND synchronous movement.
HTH


Steve in Tulsa
#143265 - 06/22/08 3:59 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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Ger B Offline
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Ger B  Offline
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NL
Hein,

I sent you an email.


Ger B

#143266 - 06/22/08 7:42 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
Boston, Massachusetts
I am sorry to inform anyone who reas this that just because the needle jet has 106 printed on the hex portion of the jet does not mean that the jet measures .106". This has been a problem with both AMAL and after market jets.

Know your source and verfiy the dimension. If you do not have the skill or tools to measure the jet, buy the jet from someone who can.

I realize there is a need for a definitive answer, but what is definitive with the needle jets available today is knowing they need to be checked. I have seen new .106" needle jets larger than .109" and smaller than .100"!


"The first is that there is a "gap" between idling and little throttle opening. Pulling away out of a corner cannot be done smoothly.
The second is that the bike holds back at full throttle after a couple of seconds. It seems to be a too small main jet but partly closing the air valve doesn't improve running."

While you are looking for an answer "gap" and "pulling away smoothly" does not give any clues other than you are having a problem which I can relate to.

Does it continue to run, but roughly (8 stroking)? Is there black soot in the exhaust pipes? Does the symptom get worse if you tickler the carb just before you take off? Does the bike smell rich just off throttle?
or
does the bike hesitate where it actually stops running only to "catch" as you open the throttle more. Does the running get better if you push the tickler and raise the gas level? Does the symptom go away momentarily after you close the throttle? Does the symptom go away or get better when you remove the air cleaner?
etc. etc. etc.
John


#143267 - 06/23/08 6:45 am Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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hein weijers Offline
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hein weijers  Offline
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The Netherlands..
You gave me lots of homework to do, John!

Regards, Hein


Triumph Bonneville T140 1978
Yamaha XS 650 Heritage special 1982 (rephased, big bore)
#143268 - 06/23/08 11:07 am Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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Tiger Offline
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Tiger  Offline
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Melbourne Australia
Two carburetters on a road bike are surely a blessing for poor lonely folks who need inclusion. bigt

Incorrect float levels or maybe something as simple as an intermittent low RPM open circuit ignition switch/poor Boyer to engine earth. :rolleyes:

In my opinion the VM30/32 Mik is a very average POS.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#143269 - 07/12/08 9:24 am Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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hein weijers Offline
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hein weijers  Offline
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The Netherlands..
Andrew and Paul

Here I posted my problems with the carbs before. I found the thread:

http://www.britbike.com/ubb/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/13/t/008410.html

were a similar problem is discribed. Because I did everything thats possible with the caburators, and the problem is getting worse in stead of better, I am suspecting the ignition to cause the problem.
The bike has a RITA ignition. I already replaced the 12V parallel coils by 6V series coils and the sparks are OK. The RITA box is earthed properly as is the cilinderhead.
In the past I have replaced the complete wiring by a new one, the wires are all 2mm2 in diameter.
The only thing that I cannot check is the inside of the RITA box. All suggestions are welcome!

Hein


Triumph Bonneville T140 1978
Yamaha XS 650 Heritage special 1982 (rephased, big bore)
#143270 - 07/12/08 9:25 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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az-idea Offline
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palo alto,ca.
..if jet needle is in lowest[leanest]clip you compromise top[main jet]1\4 throttle..also common to get that"stumble"at the bottom end..but very crisp this way..however its a top robbing setup..you have to run 2nd clip,or middle clip to get the best possible[compromise] low and top..also recommend 3.5 slide..

#143271 - 07/13/08 8:06 am Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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hein weijers Offline
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hein weijers  Offline
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The Netherlands..
I already have 3.5 slides now.
You link the needle jet and needle position with the running at full throttle, but as far as I have learned on this forum, only the main jet size is relevant at full throttle.
I cannot raise the needle because the plugs look a litte rich already.

Hein


Triumph Bonneville T140 1978
Yamaha XS 650 Heritage special 1982 (rephased, big bore)
#143272 - 07/13/08 3:19 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
Boston, Massachusetts
Hein:
This thread lacks the same thing most discussions of carburetor tuning on this forum: An understanding of how to tune a carburetor and how to relate problems so we all understand what the carb is doing.

So some thoughts:
1. As the needle is out of, and clear of, the orifice that creates what we call the needle jet, above 3/4 throttle to full throttle it is the size, or flow in cc's, of the main jet that control the fuel.
2. Now if you have done any reading about tuning a carburetor you will come across the process called "plug chop."

This is where you run the bike at a specific throttle slide position, turn the motor off while the throttle is still in this position, and roll the bike to a stop. While this is thought to be used for checking the main jet at Full throttle, it can also be used for other jetting circuits.

But I mention this because of your statement, "I cannot raise the needle because the plugs look a litte rich already."

It is very possible to have a main jet that is so lean as to leave no carbon on the plug; and the mid-range needle position be so rich as to compeletly cover the plug with carbon; and have a needle jet diamter/pilot jet so lean as to cause the bike to seize.

Any running of the engine, at other than the jetting stage you are working on, can/will mask the plug and give you an irrevelent reading. THIS INCLUDES IDLING!

If you are going to learn how to jet a carburetor you must learn:
a. The stages the carburetor delivers fuel.
b. The parts of the carburator that are involved in that stage.
c. And how to read the symptoms, whether they be lean or rich. To do this you need all of your senses, not only the spark plug!

Because it is possible to have a main jet that is too small to pass enough fuel for the bike to run properly at mid-throttle it is mandatory that you set the main jet first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All of the gas required by the needle jet/needle comes through the main jet. if it is too small you can waste a lot of time and effort working with the other stages.

The Workshop manual, or AMAL basic jetting for the Carburetor type and size is always a good place to start. If there is ANY question start with a main jet a bit bigger than recommended.

After you get the main jet selected adjust your pilot air screw and idle speed (which I like to leave a bit high when tuning a carb 1200rpm instead of 900-1000 rpm).

Now this is not well understood, but from idle to about 1/3rd throttle the diameter of the needle jet is in control of the fuel mixture.

If you cut the carbuterot in half and could see the needle as it is raised out of the needle jet, you would see the straight part of the needle does not clear the needle jet's orifice until about 1/3rd throttle (varies with which position the needle clip is in).

Thus small changes to the needle jet makes a big difference in how the bike will run. It is important to grasp that nearly all 4 stroke engines use one of three needle jets. .105", .106" or .107."

A bike that runs perfectly well with a .106" needle can run rich enough to 8 stroke with a .107" and can run lean enough to seize with a .105." Because the nedle runs up-and-down inside this brass jet it is subject to wear.

Now without getting into details, there have been a lot of needle jets avaialble that are not the size marked on the hex!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am sorry to say they must ALL be checked before using.

While there are well documented adjustments, such as raising and lowering the needle, there are quite a few used by professional carburetor technicians to fine tune an instrument.

As well as raising and lowering the needle one can shim or cut a portion of the hex away from the needle jet to raise or lower the jet. This way you can split the difference between needle clip positions.

The length of the needle jet's orifice can also be shortened as well as enlarging the orifice a few tenths of a thousandths at a time.

Also there is the crossed drilled .035" hole on the 4 stroke jet that can be enlarged, further reducing the manifold vacuum signal on the jet (be careful as a couple of thousandths of an inch makes a big difference. People suffering "megaphonitis" should see some improvement with the hole at .039."

This works while the straight part of the needle is still in the jet. A similar effect can be had by changing the air bleed visible at the mouth of the carburetor. AMAL MKII's actually have a jet available for this air passage.

So get some tape, mark your throttle so you know which jetting circuit or stage you are running the engine in, and use all of your senses to determine if the bike is lean or rich.

Take the main jet out of the carb. You will quickly learn two things. The main jet has no effect below 1/2 throttle and what 8 stroke sounds, feels, look smells like as the carb starts to make the transition from the needle/needle jet to the main jet.

It is expensive way to do things, but ALWAYS go rich first. The worse thing you will do is waste a little money and foul a plug.

Remember to do EVERYTHING RF mentioned above first.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO RIDE THE BIKE TO ADJUST THE SLIDE!!!! It can be done while the bike is still on the stand.

http://www.tioc.org/tech_article.htm


#143273 - 07/13/08 7:13 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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Posts: 139
hein weijers Offline
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hein weijers  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 139
The Netherlands..
John, thanks for the support!

I have made a printed copy of your mail and plastified it so I have it on the workbech all the time. The first thing I will do is measuring the sets of needle jets with a calibrated microscope.

One question left: what does the number on the main jet mean? Mainjet # 190 or #200 = ? mm. When I know that I can check them too

Hein


Triumph Bonneville T140 1978
Yamaha XS 650 Heritage special 1982 (rephased, big bore)
#143274 - 07/13/08 7:46 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
Joined: Mar 2005
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John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,965
Boston, Massachusetts
The main jets are calibrated in flow in cc's. The basic chart for the internal diameters for each jet size is listed in inches.

For example a 180 main jet would be drilled with a .045" (inch) drill bit. To improve accuracy and to make sure it flowed against a standard using a mecury manometer.The inlet edge would then be "worried" with a steel Burr by hand until until it flowed properly.

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/pressure/manometerintroduction.cfm

A 200 main jet would be drilled with a .048" (inch) drill bit. A 220 main jet would be drilled with a .050" drill bit. I have the entire list and expect to publish it in a future issue of Vintage Bike.

Any one with a copy of Bernard Osborne's Modern Motorcycle Maintainence First published in 1949 (mine is a Second Edition publishes in 1957 can find the entire list on page 182.

John


#143275 - 07/13/08 7:52 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
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Boston, Massachusetts
Oh, for practical purposes a plug gage will work!

Being Irish, making sure I don't have too much of a Bishop's Collar on my Guiness, is my idea of close measurement.
John beerchug


#143276 - 07/13/08 10:05 pm Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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az-idea Offline
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palo alto,ca.
Hein..with all due respect to John..and others who hold to the Fact that the Three main Circuits[pilot\NJ-Jn\main]operate discreetly seperate and individually..?..I have found overlap to be the"Fourth"consideration and ever present synergistic Gremlin always to be figured in to your results when tuneing..at least in my experience with Mik VM and Flatslide,and Im sure its the same,from what i read on board,with the MK's et cet...For example..specific to your problem[?]..Ive found a 200 main compromised at top end WOT by clipping needle at#1 and even somewhat at#2 lean such that I lose about 4\5MPH at WOT...Bigger main[you say?]does not correct this..but #2 or #3 clip does..?..I find a 210 or 220 main to affect low end[pilot end?]..losing HP..when the 200 is appropriate[on mine?]...Same compromise can also affect top and bottom[overlap]if the NJ is over or undersize or the needle itslf is incorrect for the NJ...in short...the overlap thing has been a must consideration in my tuneing experience and it makes a big difference in"how" you approach tuneing once you aknowledge its presence at all levels in a carbuerator[s] that is "supposed" to run with clearly defined and seperate circuits..??..My 2 cents..hope not to Rile believers in the Common lore...BTW..if you cant raise the Needle cause your sooting at Idle or near to..?..your pilot is too rich..thats a general observation tho and based on "primary" tuneing where to"start"with you treat the circuits as if they ARE seperate and applicable to 1\4,mid and 3\4 to wot throttle...soot at idle=overpiloted...but I offer the notion of"secondary-fine"tuneing in this post to stress the possibilty of getting best response by considering the overlap problem?..and fine corrections for or at least accomodation for in your understanding of what youve got from what youve set up to get..?..There's controversy to be considered too..!!...Theres one thing we all agree on,tho..if theres flame sprouting from a Bell mouth..theres Fire!!...What happens next..is anyones guess..!!..I finda shook bottle of Beer to be excellant extinguisher!!..

#143277 - 07/14/08 12:56 am Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
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John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
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Boston, Massachusetts
With all due respect I have never said there isn't overlap between the stages!!!!! The overlap is cleary illustrated in The Mikuni tuning guide.

But stated as a percentage of change the main jet has minisucle change in the mixture at 1/2 throttle. Almost not enough to be concerned about.

The slope of the main jet effect, and other circuits, as it starts to come into play above 1/2 throttle, increases the effect gradually until the fuel flow is under full control of the main jet.

But this isn't some thing you tune for, but something you have to live with! If you reversed the procedure and tune the main jet for the slope portion where you have overlap with the taper on the needle, you could end up with the main jet too lean or too rich.

So when we are teaching someone to tune a carburetor you start with the main jet. This is basic procedure, and well documented.

Now at 3/4 throttle and up the needle is completely out of the needle jet orifice. It has no way of restricting the flow of gasoline once it clears the needle jet orifice.

Below 3/4 throttle the taper of the needle adjusts the fuel flow from the main jet you have already established. As the slide changes the bore of the carburetor and thus flow of air the needle taper varies the fule to suit = keep the gasoline air fuel stiometric mixture at approx 14.7 to 1.

So you set the main jet so that at near to full throttle the jet delivers the stiometric fuel mixture required for proper combustion. We use the needle taper as the middle stage. This includes, and is adjusted for the ever increasing fuel delivered by the slope of the main jet.

The lower two stages are a bit more invovled as you need an idle circuit. The idle circuit is very easy to check and adjust. When the bike is idling turn the pilot air screw in and out.

What you want to see is: As you turn the air jet IN the engine should stumble and stall. As you turn it OUT the bike should again stumble, rpm drop and eventually stall.

You want the bike to run the smoothest and fastest (idle speed) when the air screw is between 1 and 1 1/2 turns out. If the bike idles the best with the air screw in farther or out farther than the recommended # turns you change the pilot jet until it does.

If the air screw is in less than 1 one turn the air flowing through the circuit is moving too fast. If the air screw is out more than 1 1/2 turns the air in the circuit is moving too slow. This isn't tuning the intake port for flow, but that is another story.

The slope of the effect of the pilot jet stops becoming a consideration above 1/4 throttle. But this slope, or overlap can be used to force slight mixture changes at low throttle openings. This can be handy.

You also need a way of getting the carb of idle because of the sudden change in in manifold vacuum as you raise the slide. It takes time for things to get moving and the cutaway at the front of the slide can help you get over this. As I mentioned above this can be done while the bike is on the center stand.

Also there is a period where the straight part of the needle (.098" diameter) is blocking the needle jet. THis is where changing the size, say a .106" to a .107", where the diameter of the jet has the greates effect on the mixture. The diameter's effect slopes down as the taper of the needle starts to take over.

Now, the beauty of the AMAL vs the Mikumi is the AMAL is by far a less sensitive instrument than the equivelent Mikuni. It is also less sensitive to changes made to the engine. To put it bluntly, if you cannot grasp how an AMAL works you will never make the switch to Mikuni.

You see AZ, overlap isn't a problem it is how these instruments work. Once you establish a stiometric mixture when the instrument is fully under the influence of the main jet, it is a matter of selecting a needle jet that delivers the same 14.7 to 1 mixture at lower throttle openings.

If you were grinding your own needles you would have to take into consideration of the increasing influence of the main jet as you open the throttle. But if you have a stock bike AMAL already did the work for you. They ground the taper on the needle to maintain the stiometric mixture as you open the throttle. The overlap is invisble because the aprts you are using have taken all this into consideration.

So you will be well served as you learn how these instruments by breaking the tuning into the four basic stages. If you start with the main jet, adjust the pilot air mixture, check action of slide cutaway, all you will need to do is make sure the needle jet is the size marked on the jet and set the needle clip height.
John


#143278 - 07/14/08 7:06 am Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
az-idea Offline
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az-idea  Offline
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palo alto,ca.
..If I hadnt got your attention John..I'd Know far less than I do now!!..,But I still contend a lean clip affects WOT..perhaps the needle is not 100% above,or above affecting the flow at orifice..?..racers who have to face lots of straightaway track wouldnt be clipping too lean..??inquireing..not baiting..but im curious as this is something which wouldnt make sense to me,,based on my results so far..?..on another tack..Ive tappered 6dh2 points to get around the 20 to lean,25 to rich pilot problem..without throwing the higher circuits noticeably..?..dont want a hijack here..but everyone benefits when you jump in,candybar in hand,for a long post!!...

#143279 - 07/14/08 7:34 am Re: Amal MK1 settings T140V  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 139
hein weijers Offline
BritBike Forum member
hein weijers  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 139
The Netherlands..
Keep hijacking, AZ, keep hijacking!


Triumph Bonneville T140 1978
Yamaha XS 650 Heritage special 1982 (rephased, big bore)

Moderated by  John Healy 


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