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Octane booster and lead substitute #140081
04/28/08 4:24 pm
04/28/08 4:24 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 34
Tulsa
Kelly in Tulsa Offline OP
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Tulsa
I'm probably going to take some heat for posting this but here goes...

I've been fighting some issues on my 71 tr6c with a stock AMAL lately. Anemic performance, slightly sticky AMAL slide, coughing and sputtering (sounds like my dog when he had "kennel cough") and rough idle. Out of desperation and by recommendation, I bought two gallons of fresh 91 octane (the best I can get aroud these parts), a bottle of Lucas octane booster and some kind of lead substitute. I can't believe the difference! No more sticky slide and the bike seems to have new life. I'm ready to go Harley huntin' now!

BTW, thanks for all the good advice on proper AMAL mounting. The bigger o ring definitely helped.

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Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140082
04/28/08 4:44 pm
04/28/08 4:44 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Kent UK
Thanks for posting that Kelly, I'll bear it in mind.

Blapper redwine

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140083
04/28/08 5:21 pm
04/28/08 5:21 pm
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Posts: 5,963
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Ger B Offline
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I know these are BSA exhaust valves and not Triumph wink , but this is the result of Wynns lead substitute.
Two years ago I had to hammer the valves out of the guides.
I never used it since.



Ger B

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140084
04/28/08 6:01 pm
04/28/08 6:01 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 34
Tulsa
Kelly in Tulsa Offline OP
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Tulsa
Thanks for posting that pic. Yikes! Maybe I'll back off the lead substitute when I get that AMAL re-sleeved.

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140085
04/28/08 6:39 pm
04/28/08 6:39 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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What we need here is a science based review of the octane boosters available. Any links?

Blapper redwine

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140086
04/28/08 6:48 pm
04/28/08 6:48 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,575
El Dorado, California
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I would think the fresh gas was the difference not the octane booster as the stuff you can buy in the store does nothing. You do not need lead substitute with any of the modern premium gas. Octane booster does nothing for performance, it raises the temperature point where the gas can ignite to stop pinking (pinging). I would not think you would need an octane booster unless your compression is 10:1 or more.


Bob


73 Triumph T140 Main Ride
70 Bonnie
67 BSA West Coast Hornet

56 Chevy

Who are the brain police?



Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140087
04/28/08 6:52 pm
04/28/08 6:52 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,575
El Dorado, California
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Here is a link to explain octane.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm


bigt


Bob


73 Triumph T140 Main Ride
70 Bonnie
67 BSA West Coast Hornet

56 Chevy

Who are the brain police?



Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140088
04/28/08 6:55 pm
04/28/08 6:55 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,575
El Dorado, California
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Oh yea, it takes 3-4 cans of the store junk to raise the octane one point, from say 92 up to 93. If you actually do need an octane booster as I do for my BSA victor, the best one I have found is Torco Accelerator. Look up torco.com. One quart can will take 20 gallons of 92 octane up to 98 octane. Costs about $25.


Bob


73 Triumph T140 Main Ride
70 Bonnie
67 BSA West Coast Hornet

56 Chevy

Who are the brain police?



Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140089
04/29/08 1:21 am
04/29/08 1:21 am
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 176
Dillsburg, PA - USA
mattstriumph Offline
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Has anyone tried Octane Supreme 130? It is actual TEL. Web Page



1965 Triumph T100SR
Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140090
04/29/08 7:06 am
04/29/08 7:06 am
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 341
Lower Rhine Area, Germany
Towner Offline
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Lower Rhine Area, Germany
Quote:
Originally posted by Ger:
I know these are BSA exhaust valves and not Triumph wink , but this is the result of Wynns lead substitute.
Two years ago I had to hammer the valves out of the guides.
I never used it since.

Hi Ger,

why do you think that this is a result of lead substitute ? Normally it should prevent overheating. I use Aral lead substitute. But only every third or fourth filling. But when I look at your picture it would be better to leave it.

Regards Ralf


Triumph Bonneville 650 T120RV 1972
Norton Commando 850 MKII 1973
Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140091
04/29/08 8:10 am
04/29/08 8:10 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
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dave jones Offline
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
There was a test and the only ones that are really any good are Castrol valvemaster, Millers vsp and one other which I can't remember. All the rest did nothing, apparently. I actually use the Redex one which may not do anything but make the attempt! I don't think that an alloy head bike needs lead replacement at all anyway.

Dave

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140092
04/29/08 8:37 am
04/29/08 8:37 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,963
NL
G
Ger B Offline
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NL
Answering Ralf:

The SPO (smart previous owner) did not use a lead substitute and rode witout a problem.
As PHNO (pig headed new owner) I started to use it, and ran into the problem of compression loss, and abnormal sounds underneath the rocker cover. When I opened the cover, I found exessive valve / rocker clearence. When I wanted to adjust, I found I could not move the exhaust valves by hand. After I pulled the head, I discovered this. I litterary had to hammer them out of the guides, and still think it is a small micacle that the valves did not damage a piston and worse.
I have been thinking that burnt oil on the valve stems could have been the problem, but:

-the bike did not smoke when I started to ride it
-PO rode without a problem
-problem started a few weeks (appr. 1000 km) after I started using Wyns lead substitute.


Ger B

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140093
04/29/08 9:01 am
04/29/08 9:01 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Kent UK
That is solid gold experience Ger, thanks. bigt


Blapper redwine

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140094
04/29/08 9:06 am
04/29/08 9:06 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,488
South East England
G
Graham Ham Offline
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South East England
I'm firmly in the camp that says 'leave well alone'

I've never used any additives in either gas or oil on my old iron head bikes. I've thrashed and hammered Daisy the '48 all over the place - UK, Europe normally fully freighted with gear and often two up - on standard gas, and never had any top-end issues as a result. Bearing in mind that she was averaging 26k miles a year between 2002 and 2006, I'm pretty convinced there's no need to add anything.

G.


Good judgment comes from experience, but the most memorable experiences tend to come from bad judgment!


http://www.panther-publishing.co.uk/default.asp?contentID=18

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140096
04/29/08 10:15 am
04/29/08 10:15 am
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 341
Lower Rhine Area, Germany
Towner Offline
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Lower Rhine Area, Germany
Hi Ger,

thanks for this useful information. Even though it's the first time I heard of a bad effect, I've ever been sceptical with lead substitute additives. That's the reason why I used it very infrequently.

Thanks Ralf


Triumph Bonneville 650 T120RV 1972
Norton Commando 850 MKII 1973
Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140097
04/29/08 12:30 pm
04/29/08 12:30 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 34
Tulsa
Kelly in Tulsa Offline OP
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Kelly in Tulsa  Offline OP
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Posts: 34
Tulsa
Paddy, I spent the best half of the seventies on Yamaha RD's and Kawasaki Triples and I love the idea of a dash of two stoke oil in the tank. I'm going to have to give that a shot.

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140098
04/29/08 1:42 pm
04/29/08 1:42 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Kent UK
Paddy/Kelly,

Given that engine oil in the fuel lowers the octane rating increasing chances of seizure according to RFW et al, why doesn't adding 2 stroke oil impair burning?

This isn't a hijack as it affects 'apparent' octane rating!

Blapper redwine

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140099
04/29/08 3:07 pm
04/29/08 3:07 pm
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 411
Columbus, Ohio, 1978 T140E
T
tomterrific Offline
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Columbus, Ohio, 1978 T140E
Oil in gas bad. Make ping, hole piston.

Toluene in gas good, make big octane. Aromatics already in gas so no problem. Toluene approximatly 115 octane.

TG

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140100
04/29/08 6:02 pm
04/29/08 6:02 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
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dave jones Offline
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
Graham Ham- I'm pretty sure that you would get valve seat recession on an iron engine with unleaded but maybe it happens more on cars? The Castrol stuff did stop this. Maybe you only potter about? A good thrashing will soon have those seats burnt out! smile In fact you will get valve seat recession on anything if you ride hard enough.

Dave

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140101
04/29/08 6:52 pm
04/29/08 6:52 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

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Boston, Massachusetts
"In fact you will get valve seat recession on anything if you ride hard enough."

Generalization?

For all practical purposes no-lead has not led to valve seat recession on these British bikes. IMHO the people doing valve jobs on these bikes have done far more damage than running on no-lead has ever done.

No-lead has been available here in the states for years. Many of these bikes were run on Amoco "white gas" in the day, which was a no-lead gasoline with out any problems with valve seat recession.

Certainly with induction hardened intergral cast iron seats used for racing where the rpm is over 4,000 for extended periods one would expect to see some recession. It does not seem to be a problem with bikes run on the street.
John


Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140102
04/29/08 7:29 pm
04/29/08 7:29 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content

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Maui Hawaii
We should see an end to such fuel additives soon as a good lot of them are only ethanol anyway and since they're now putting alcohol in the gas at the pump what would be the point? In high humidity areas( like here) the occasional addition of a little ethanol was a good thing as it absorbed whatever water was floating at the bottom of your tank and ran it trough your motor without harm. Most of the hysterial about valve recession came out of England. Their mags were full recommendations and solutions about it. They should have asked us here in the US. We never worried about it for a minute. Most of the damage was done to the valves and guides as this is were the lubrication was really needed. I just compensated by running a tad rich on all my bikes and I never had any unusual problems. Those darn Triumph guides just wear out three or four times faster than any others but that is just down to poor top end lubrication on top of poor valve geometry, not addtives in the gas.
A change in valve and guide material is a fair stopgap against rapid wear but to be honest, there isn't any way to compensate completely for a poor design at the end of the day.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140103
04/29/08 7:48 pm
04/29/08 7:48 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 195
Lancs, UK
Peter Jones Offline
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Lancs, UK
The hysteria in the UK was, I believe, stirred up by the media/govt as a cynical way of getting older vehicles off the road.

I ran old Landrovers on unleaded without any valve seat recession, only using Castrol Valvemaster when doing longer motorway journeys.

Removing lead from petrol was supposed to prevent children being retarded - as far as I can see, the current generation of (lead free) teenagers seem particularly thick. Maybe we shold bring back 4 and 5 star leaded petrol - didn't do us any harm wink

Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140104
04/29/08 9:27 pm
04/29/08 9:27 pm
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Posts: 1,575
El Dorado, California
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I figure the lead added that little umph we needed as teenagers. Yep the current generation is thick and soft.


Bob


73 Triumph T140 Main Ride
70 Bonnie
67 BSA West Coast Hornet

56 Chevy

Who are the brain police?



Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140105
04/29/08 9:37 pm
04/29/08 9:37 pm
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 804
Halifax, Butt end of Europe
andrewinpopayan Offline
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Buy new, buy with credit, get new car, bigga, betta, fasta more multimedia.

SPEND SPEND, get a debt and live a happy life on 15%.


Quote:
Yep the current generation is thick and soft.
Buy now. pay later get the stuff you need and put it on credit

debt slaves


99% of carb problems are electrical.

1959 3TA

BMW R1150 Oilhead
Re: Octane booster and lead substitute #140106
04/29/08 10:04 pm
04/29/08 10:04 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 276
Collierville TN
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Alan in TN Offline
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Collierville TN
I agree with TomTerrific. I plan on adding toluene to my fuel to boost the octane rating. I called Sherwin-Williams and I can buy a 5 gallon can of it (~$75 and add a pint per gallon of 93 octane gas) or a larger quantity and the manager said that he supplied a lot of local racers (stock cars, modifieds, etc.) for the same purpose. The F1 cars used to use exotic blends of aliphatic and aromatic hydrocarbons (high toluene percentage) for their fuel but I think the rules now make it so it isn't as exotic. The only drawback is if you want to go on a trip and don't have a chase vehicle to help when refueling.

I think ethanol is really a bad idea that's been shoved down our throats. It really doesn't help in any way, IMHO, except make some corn farmers rich. This not intended to offend anybody, just shining some light on the subject. --my 2c

Alan
1978 T140E being tuned up

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