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#139711 - 04/21/08 3:07 am 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Jersey Kev Offline
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I'm trying to sort out a few issues with my rear wheel spacing. At present, the rear disc caliper is not properly centered with respect to the roter. Previous owner had put copper shimming washers between caliper and mounting bracket to improve spacing, but the outer pad is still draging. I've searched previous posts, but can't find anything on this subject. The roter looks to be mounted right up against the hub, and the caliper bracket also appears to be correctly mounted, am I missing something?


Jersey Kev

67 TR6P Saint
76 T140V Bonneville
95 Daytona 900
(removed non-brit from list)
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#139712 - 04/21/08 6:04 am Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Blapper Offline
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Hi Kev,

I just had a similar problem with my front caliper hard up against my new Hyde disc conversion first time fitted. I got round it by making a 0.030" shorter wheel bearing nut.

With your rear, let's start by listing the parts from the rhs of the bike:

Nut, washer, chain adjuster, swinging arm, chain adjuster, speedo drive, spacer, complete wheel, spacer, chain adjuster, swinging arm, chain adjuster, washer and finally spindle head. If you have those parts and have tightened up the nut but still find it touches, it is a problem.

My torque arm rattled (underslung caliper) when I reassembled it all after chroming so I put 'O' rings in between the parts to stop that. Now first time up I put those 'O' rings in the wrong places which caused my caliper to deflect enough to touch the disc....

I suppose you've checked the mounting plate hasn't been bent before? Only other advice is check your piston is going back FLUSH with the caliper body as you get a buildup of rust and snot in there if the fluid hasn't been changed enough - that will do it too.

HTH

Blapper redwine

#139713 - 04/21/08 8:11 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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JubeePrince Online content
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blapper:
Nut, washer, chain adjuster, swinging arm, chain adjuster, speedo drive, spacer, complete wheel, spacer, chain adjuster, swinging arm, chain adjuster, washer and finally spindle head.
Blapper,

I'm sure it's a typo, but the spacer goes between the speedo drive and the caliper plate.....

Kev -

You have the spacer on the correct side of the caliper plate (the in-side)?

Are you certain the swing arm is true, i.e. not bent.....?

It is possible to mount the caliper on the wrong side of the mounting plate (don't ask me how I know :rolleyes: ).......

HTH,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#139714 - 04/21/08 8:53 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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shel Online content
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I believe there are two different caliper mounting brackets. One requires a spacer between caliper bracket and chain adjuster and one does not.
My 76/77 parts catalog shows a completely different rear caliper mounting bracket then the one that is on my 76 T140V.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#139715 - 04/21/08 9:12 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Blapper Offline
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Steve,

Thanks for that, I missed out the large washer spacer that goes between the speedo drive and the chain adjuster, the one I remembered is there too.

Shel,

You've got me really interested now as my '78 T140E falls between the V and the later E in many respects and so I am wondering if mine is right. Is there any chance you could scan and email me a copy of the page in those parts books you have?

Thanks a lot.

Blapper redwine

#139716 - 04/21/08 10:18 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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shel Online content
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I scan it tonight


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#139717 - 04/21/08 10:19 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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shel Online content
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Quote:
Originally posted by shel:
I"ll scan it tonight


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#139718 - 04/22/08 1:43 am Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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trumpetloon Offline
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Shel... please include your publication number and date in the scan. My original 1976 parts and service manual show the exact bracket my '76 has. I'll get out to the shed when it gets light and we can compare notes! Thanks! Mark


1974 TR5T
#139719 - 04/22/08 4:11 am Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Steve in Tulsa Offline
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Kev, does the caliper hang evenly over the rotor? Is the space on each side the same distance from the rotor? If so then I agree it could easily be a hanging piston. Just like Jubee I know. If you take it apart polish the piston and the cylinder with 600 wet/dry and check fit. It should slide very easily.
HTH


Steve in Tulsa
#139720 - 04/22/08 12:20 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Jersey Kev Offline
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I dis-assembled the whole rear last night to see what I could find, I don't remember a large spacer between the speedo drive and the caliper, that might be the thing I'm missing. My manuals also don't show my exact setup, so I'm not clear on the setup. Does anyone have a part number for the missing spacer, or know what the thickness should be?
Another thing of concern is the swingarm being bent, I held a framing square up against the ends of the frame end pivot point and the flat where the swingarm meets the frame ( chain side). I found that at the axle chain side the square lines up with the inside edge of the axle flat. The other side ( caqaliper side), and found that the square lines up about a quarter of an inch outside the axle flat. I'm not sure let if the bracket for the caliper is slightly bent or not. Is there data available for dimensions/alignment for the swingarm? There is no evidence of bendage other than what I mentioned. In the meantime, I'll look for other posts on swingarms.
Thanks, Kev.


Jersey Kev

67 TR6P Saint
76 T140V Bonneville
95 Daytona 900
(removed non-brit from list)
#139721 - 04/22/08 12:58 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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JubeePrince Online content
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Kev,

The spacer is dependent on whether or not you have the earlier or later anchor plate. There are two parts manuals for 1976. The first 99-2257, published in Feb. '76, shows the anchor plate as part #37-7014. The corresponding rear wheel asssembly does not show the spacer.

[img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x250/JubeePrince/brake1.jpg?t=1208868733[/img]
[img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x250/JubeePrince/rearwheel1.jpg?t=1208868791[/img]

The later 1976 - 1977 manual #99-2257 published/revised in August '76, shows the anchor plate as part#37-7020. (I assume the kit #00-4409 contains the new caliper mounting bolts and nuts) The corresponding rear wheel assembly shows the spacer at the speedo drive (part 12 in the wheel diagram).

[img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x250/JubeePrince/brake2.jpg?t=1208868828[/img]

[img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x250/JubeePrince/rearwheel2.jpg?t=1208868865[/img]

As a reference, my bike has the latter set-up with the spacer:
[img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x250/JubeePrince/rearwheel.jpg?t=1208868903[/img]


Now, just to throw another wrench (no pun intended) into the mix, are you certain your rear wheel offset is correct? :p

HTH,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#139722 - 04/22/08 1:27 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Peter Jones Offline
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Now that's a shiny disc cool


On my T140E (81) there is a spacer either side of the caliper hanger, allowing caliper to be central to the disc, and the pads to hit square on.

#139723 - 04/22/08 3:27 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Blapper Offline
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Hey JP Steve,

Are you sure about those scans? The parts lists don't make a lot of sense to me. Part 12 is a bearing not a spacer. One of us has lost the plot, and as I've just finished breathing in chainsaw smoke for an hour, I'm prepared to believe it's me (but I don't think I have the monopoly on being daft around here, maybe it's just I'm one of the few that admits it!). laugh

I'm still intrigued by this thread as it could answer a question that I hadn't asked yet (one of those things that I didn't know that I didn't know)!

I can feel a picture coming on.



There it is!

Blapper redwine

#139724 - 04/22/08 3:36 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Blapper -

Get some fresh air...... :p

The parts listings are for the brake parts. The wheel illustrations are not suppose to match the brake parts.....

part 12 refers to the second wheel diagram not the brake parts.....

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#139725 - 04/22/08 3:49 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Blapper Offline
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The smoke's clearing a bit now Steve :p .

That spacer is out of scale if you compare it to reality - looks more like a 1/2" washer eh?

These later bikes that don't have a spacer between the caliper plate and speedo drive must use a different speedo drive because the face of mine is recessed and the spacer fills that recess. Failure to use one would cause a problem when the wheel nut is tightened.

Blapper redwine

#139726 - 04/23/08 6:39 am Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Blapper Offline
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Kev, Where are you on this? Have you established which setup you've got yet?

Sounds like you've got two problems - caliper spacing (wouldn't be affected by a bent swing arm) and wheel offset.

Give us some history of the bike. Have you had any work done in that area (new wheel rim or summat) lately? Did it feel wierd when ridden? What happens when you use a straight edge against the tyre to check wheel alignment?

Too little communication back from you at the moment - we're shooting in the dark.

Blapper redwine

#139727 - 04/23/08 12:38 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Jersey Kev Offline
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Blapper,
Since I don't have a spacer, I guess I have the later setup (underslung caliper). I measured the spacing between axle flats, and that looks ok ( just a cat's whisker over 8"). Since the caliper bracket is bent up by design, I can't tell if it's bent more than required. I bought the bike last year, and had to put in a new mainshaft (was broken at the kickstart end). PO said he bought it, rode it around the block once and parked it for a year, when he tried to start it up again it was stuck, he said he pulled the cover off couldn't find anything wrong aqnd put it back together and realized he didn't have the skill to work on it. The paperwork he gave me included a shop reciept from the guy he bought it from which included brake parts in the materials list, and wheel alignment in the description of labor ( nothing specific mentioned ). The rear rim has some serious dings, (like it hit a curb and was beaten back to almost round ). The right side frame member where the passenger peg bolts to has a ding in it and the tab the peg bolts thru is slightly bent. As far as wheel alignment, it's way off to the left, I tried loosening the left side spokes, and tightening the right side spokes, but that didn't buy much. I didn't want to ride it too much due to slight rear brake pad drag. Just enought to sort out engine running condition and gearbox operation after repair. On left hand leans it was squirrelly, on right hand leans not so bad. At this point I'm just wondering if my framing square measurements are telling me anything valid.


Jersey Kev

67 TR6P Saint
76 T140V Bonneville
95 Daytona 900
(removed non-brit from list)
#139728 - 04/23/08 12:49 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Jersey Kev Offline
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Forgot to mention I made sure caliper pucks weren't sticking on one side or the other.


Jersey Kev

67 TR6P Saint
76 T140V Bonneville
95 Daytona 900
(removed non-brit from list)
#139729 - 04/23/08 5:16 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Quote:
Originally posted by kev:
Since I don't have a spacer, I guess I have the later setup (underslung caliper).
Kev-

If you don't have the spacer, then you can't guess on the setup. Until you know for certain which anchor plate you have (37-7014 or 37-7020), you won't know whether or not you need the spacer. As the caliper is dragging on the outside of the rotor, perhaps the spacer between the speedo drive and the anchor plate would help with alignment......

Quote:
Originally posted by kev:

Since the caliper bracket is bent up by design, I can't tell if it's bent more than required.
Anchor plates are pretty sturdy steel.....if it's bent anywhere from being dropped, it would be around the holes the spindle and torque stay go through.....

Quote:
Originally posted by kev:
The rear rim has some serious dings, (like it hit a curb and was beaten back to almost round ).
Now you tell us! laughing I would bet dollars to donuts that until you get the rear wheel straightened out, your brakes will never line up correctly.....

HTH,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#139730 - 04/23/08 7:59 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Jersey Kev Offline
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Well, no mater what shape the rim is in, that has no effect on the hub - correct? (its actually not that bad-only a little runout when spun freely)I agree that a spacer between the speedo drive and caliper would bring the caliper/ rotor relationship closer to desired. And I will definately try putting one in when it goes back together. However, I still need to find out if my swingarm is ok or not. If its not what it should be that may very well be the cause of the rear wheel misalignment. I just ordered some used parts including a swingarm and rear wheel assembly, I'll do some parts swapping when they arrive, and see what happens. Till then, I'd still like to find out about swingarm specs.
Thanks, Kev.


Jersey Kev

67 TR6P Saint
76 T140V Bonneville
95 Daytona 900
(removed non-brit from list)
#139731 - 04/23/08 8:19 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Blapper Offline
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Kev,

Bit of an over sight not telling us all that history eh?

Look at your speedo drive. If it has the recess in the centre that is about 2" in diameter and about a 1/16" deep, your setup should have the washer which is about 5/32" thick. If you havent got it, the rear end will tighten up, but you will bugg*r your drive with the caliper plate pushing on it pi$$ed.

Blapper redwine

PS, can you see the parts in my picture?

#139732 - 04/23/08 8:35 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blapper:
my '78 T140E falls between the V and the later E in many respects and so I am wondering if mine is right.
My late '78 model (GX prefixed) T140V brake assembly is identical to that shown in JubeePrince's photo, = 37-7020 caliper plate, large 37-7021 washer between the drive box and the plate, the disc running (more or less) centrally in the caliper slot. A '78 E model ought be the same as a V in that respect I think.

#139733 - 04/23/08 9:00 pm Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Blapper Offline
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That's good, because that's what I have! My disc runs centrally, but I have chain alignment problems with the tyre touching the chainguard slightly. Still, I'm not going to hijack this thread with that. Prolly offset.

Blapper redwine

#139734 - 04/24/08 3:14 am Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Jersey Kev Offline
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I don't have a recess in the speedo drive on the caliper side, so it's probably of the type in the first illustration, also I noticed that the chain adjuster setup is different in the two variations, second one has part #14 rectangular washers. I don't have those either. That being said, I may still opt for a spacer between speedo drive and bracket if I can't get it sorted out otherwise.
Here's some more info to chew on: I put a strait edge on the rotor and measured the distance from the outside edge of the rotor to the edge of the rim = 1.5". Also did the same from outside edge of the sprocket to rim = 1.5", distance to closest edge of tire 3/4" on both sides.( I think I remember reading about that measurement in one of the wheel alignment threads). This leads me to believe the hub/rim/tire is centered (as a stand alone unit).When mounted in the swingarm, it should be centered at the axle end (yes?). If you were able to picture my description of the measurements I took on the swingarm with the framing square, you'll see that the centerline of the pivot end (the frame end) is not the same centerline as the axle end.(as I am almost certain it should be).
In other words, should the centerline of the swingarm be true from end to end? (mine's not), and I think this needs to be corrected first.


Jersey Kev

67 TR6P Saint
76 T140V Bonneville
95 Daytona 900
(removed non-brit from list)
#139735 - 04/24/08 7:03 am Re: 76 T140V rear caliper spacing  
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Blapper Offline
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Kev,

Can't help you on the spacer issue then, only know what mine is. Somebody with experience of more models may chime in.

Swinging arm: I don't think it should be symetrical. Mine looks offset to the right (the pivot end is to the right of the wheel spindle end). My maual says 9.66" between the plates at the rear of the frame and centred, but the forks of the swinging arm can be - and I think are IIRC - at different angles as standard.

I may have mentioned earlier that we have a company in England that has a computerised system for touching various points of your bike and they can tell if it is straight. You can then go away and fix it or get a taxi home and they will do all the work. Fabulous service. Peace of mind is worth a lot in my mind.

HTH,

Blapper redwine

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