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Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138628
04/06/08 5:12 am
04/06/08 5:12 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 228
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne Metisse Offline OP
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Melbourne Metisse  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 228
Melbourne, Australia
After taking apart my fully functional gearbox to replace a leaking gasket, I'm having problems with getting the correct number of gears! On first assembly I only managed to find 2nd and 3rd and this time, after seeking advice and consulting various manuals and magazine articles, I've managed to find 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Still no 4th gear though, sadly.

Does anyone have any ideas as to where I might be going wrong or possibly tell me there is something else wrong with the 'box?

Many thanks

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Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138629
04/06/08 5:35 am
04/06/08 5:35 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,569
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DMadigan Online content
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DMadigan  Online Content
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Joined: Jan 2004
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If you look at how it works, setting it is simpler. The drive block is on the quadrant end of the shift shaft and has the two plungers that move up when downshifting and vice versa. The plunger catches on the teeth on the end of the quadrant. When the camplate is in first, the quadrant is at its highest position on the driver block end. The upper plunger will catch on the last tooth to pull the quadrant down. The lower plunger will have no tooth to push up on. In neutral the two lowest teeth will be between the two plungers so it can push the quadrant up or down. Set the camplate in neutral and with the outer cover mounted on the inner gearbox case, set the quadrant in the highest position (drive block end) where the two plungers straddle the lowest two teeth of the quadrant. Push the inner case on and engage the quadrant gear with the camplate.
There is a factory tool with pins that sets in the case and has a pointer that positions the quadrant in neutral.

Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138630
04/06/08 11:11 am
04/06/08 11:11 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
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dave jones Online content
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dave jones  Online Content
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
Foolproof description from Dmadigan

I had a bit of trouble with this when I was following the manual where it says to line up a certain tooth on the quadrant and I ended up with only two gears too!. I lined up the case in my view so that it looked exactly the same as the drawing but on mine I had to have the tooth very slightly up from the picture and it worked.

Dave

Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138631
04/06/08 12:57 pm
04/06/08 12:57 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 228
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne Metisse Offline OP
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Melbourne Metisse  Offline OP
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Melbourne, Australia
Thanks for that gentlemen. I'll let you know how I get on...

Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138632
04/06/08 1:19 pm
04/06/08 1:19 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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John Healy  Online Content

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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
Whne asking for instructions on timing Triumph 650 gear boxes it is necessary to tell us which camplate detent spring you have. The assembly techniques are different for the leaf spring vs the spring and plunger.

While DM's techique will work for the spring and detent it will require a bit more understanding with the leaf spring.
John


Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138633
04/06/08 2:33 pm
04/06/08 2:33 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 228
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne Metisse Offline OP
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Melbourne Metisse  Offline OP
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Melbourne, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by John Healy:
Whne asking for instructions on timing Triumph 650 gear boxes it is necessary to tell us which camplate detent spring you have. The assembly techniques are different for the leaf spring vs the spring and plunger.

While DM's techique will work for the spring and detent it will require a bit more understanding with the leaf spring.
John
My 'box is a leaf spring that's been converted to spring/plunger! There surely can't be that many leaf springs still in use - they were only around for just over a season?

Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138634
04/06/08 2:59 pm
04/06/08 2:59 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
Think about how many of these they made and how popular they are as "users" because no one wanted them for restorations. I suspect there are more of these on the road used as daily transportation than all of the other Triumphs combined. Just a guess....
John


Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138635
04/06/08 4:10 pm
04/06/08 4:10 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,569
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DMadigan Online content
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I do not see the leaf spring being worse than the plunger. It is better in that it has a line contact across the camplate rather than a point digging in. The difficulty in assembling is the spring tries to rotate the camplate as the gearbox inner case is pushed on. In this case the camplate should be put in high gear and the quadrant should be down (driver block end) with the last tooth sitting above the lower plunger.

Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138636
04/06/08 6:41 pm
04/06/08 6:41 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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John Healy  Online Content

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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
"put in high gear"

If you leave th camplate in high gear the leaf spring will rotate it into 3rd as you offer the inner cover. You need to rotate it past 4th gear so as the leaf spring engages wth gear detent it rotates the camplate into 4th as you offer the inner cover.

I am at work and looked at a gearbox on the engine stand to see what you are talking about. Just how do you see in between the inner and outer cover to be sure you have proper engagement. As I could not get a good look at it or feel anything I could reference by feel, It seemed like you would have to guess if it was in the proper position.

Isn't it simper to offer the inner cover and index the quadrant off the top (4/5th) or bottom (1st)? Both of htese positions are well defined and easy to reference by feel.
John


Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138637
04/06/08 7:11 pm
04/06/08 7:11 pm
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DMadigan Online content
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I presumed it was a four speed box. You can hold the leaf spring down with a screw driver when sliding on the inner case to keep the camplate from rotating, or just hold on to the camplate with locking pliers.
If you put the outer cover on the inner case, when operating the shift lever the quadrant will move with each selection until you get to first or fourth where moving the shift lever will not move the quadrant further, only back. If the camplate is positioned in first or fourth and the quadrant located in its respective position the inner case and outer cover can be slid on with the quadrant and camplate engaging in the right position.

Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138638
04/06/08 8:54 pm
04/06/08 8:54 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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"You can hold the leaf spring down with a screw driver when sliding on the inner case to keep the camplate from rotating, or just hold on to the camplate with locking pliers."

I actually have a gearbox housing you could do this with, but it has 4 holes cut in it so I can show people how the gearbox works and check end play. How would you get a screw drive under the leaf spring or a locking pliers on a camplate with a stock gearbox?

DM: I can't fault you for not trying to come up with a simple way of offereing the inner cover! Your idea, presented above, is probably the first new offereing about a problem that seems to vex a lot of Triumph owners that I have seen in the past 20 years: Just how can I time the quadrant.

It is a good idea (if it works) and I want to explore it further, but holding the camplate with pliers or holding the leaf spring down with pliers just doesn't seem feasable. You must have much smaller hands than I do.

Actually using the outer cover is actually an extension of using the factory tool to locate the quadrant in what ever gear you choose to assemble the transmission. RF uses 3rd, I use 4th or 5th, Mitch Klempf and Phil Pick use first, I am not sure about RF, but Mitch, Phil or myself do not use the factory tool. It is a waste of time as by the time you locate the tool we would have the transmission assembled.

The factory tool takes the place of the shift pawls in the outer cover and holds the quadrant. It is much easier to locate the factory tool in the proper notch. And If you choose to use it, instead of the whole outer cover or referencing the crankcase, it is much lighter and easier to handle.

Now I would like to explore this more, but it requires me taking off the inner cover on the motor in the motor stand. Could someone else give this a try and report back. Especially if you have a leaf spring transmission.
John


Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138639
04/06/08 10:32 pm
04/06/08 10:32 pm
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DMadigan Online content
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Sorry, the only leaf spring gearbox I have is on a triple in storage. Alternative to assembling the inner gearbox/outer cover together is to put them together, find the first or fourth quadrant location and mark the inner case. Take off the cover and mark the outside of the inner case and hold the quadrant in place when fitting.
I forgot the four speed uses the plunger or leaf spring as a stop. If the camplate is over rotated then when fitting the inner case the leaf spring will push the camplate into position as the case is fitted.

Re: Unit 650 Triumph gearbox indexing #138640
04/09/08 1:00 am
04/09/08 1:00 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 252
texas
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texas
before you slide the inner cover on, rotate the camplate so that the trans is in 4th gear position. now just push the camplate quadrant all the way down, and slide it in..
it will index it into top gear. now just go down thru the gears, no muss, no fuss.


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