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pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131106
12/21/07 3:19 am
12/21/07 3:19 am
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 80
Hamilton, Va
cwicker Offline OP
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cwicker  Offline OP
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Hamilton, Va
Well I'm deep into a redue to an engine rebuild.1957 T110 Case was converted to a roller bearing on the timing side and std. ball brg. on drive side. This is bassackwards from what it needs to be.
I want to install a roller bearing (not tappered) on the drive side case and ball bearing or roller on theT/S case. Have been to 3 local bearing shops in my area and so far have not been able to find what I need.
Does any one know the Timken or other manufacturer's part number for any of these bearings I am in need of? I know the part number for the ball bearings for both sides of the cases but can only find the drive side ball bearing. Can't find the equivalent ball bearing or roller brg.for the Timing side.
The drive side ball bearing is marked " England MJ1.1/8 E RHP" It measures 1 1/8 x 2 1/2 Thats what I would like to replace with a roller bearing.
Since a roller was installed on the T/S case I don't have an old ball bearing from that side to try to match. The roller is marked " made in England LRJA 1 1/8 31E50 R & M". It may be that there is no american equivalent to that bearing. I'm beginning to think I might have to blow off the roller conversion and go back to 2 ball bearings.
I'm trying to recoup some of the expense by getting the brgs. locally as I have already paid for this job the last time the engine was overhauled, and this conversion was done although incorrectly. This time I'll do it hopefully correctly. Thanks for any info and help anyone might have .
Cliff help

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Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131107
12/21/07 3:23 am
12/21/07 3:23 am
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 80
Hamilton, Va
cwicker Offline OP
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cwicker  Offline OP
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Hamilton, Va
PS the roller bearing that came out of the T/S measures 1 1/8 x 2 13/16.

Cliff

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131108
12/21/07 4:37 am
12/21/07 4:37 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,914
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content
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Cliff,

Assuming you have the big bearing cases: That means that both bearing are the same size. If you have two different sized bearings then the roller converssion you have is the best set up.

You really should just call your local Triumph dealer(old Triumphs) and ask them to send you the right bearings. They'll have them in stock and can give you good advice as well. Two ball bearings work fine, it's just the everyone wants to have the very hottest set-up is all. It is considerably cheaper than the roller bearing, like half price. In the end, though, it's nothing compared to what Harleys and other bikes cost.
If you're going to just putt around on your bike(no racing) two ball bearings work fine as they did for many years on Triumphs.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131109
12/21/07 2:14 pm
12/21/07 2:14 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,158
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Offline

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Boston, Massachusetts
Cliff:
A MJ1 1/8 RHP bearing measures 1 1/8 by 2 13/16 not 2 1/2.

If you have stock 1957 T100 cases the bearings are the same physical size on both sides. They are both 1 1/8" by 2 13/16"

What you need is MJ 1 1/8 C3 ball and a MRJA 1 1/8 CN
The ball bearing MJ 1 1/8 (MJL 1 1/8) C3 condition is typically sold under part number 70-1591.

The roller bearing MRJA 1 1/8 CN condition is typically sold under part number 68-0625 and 70-2879.

YOU DONT want MRJA 1 1/8 C2 condition also sold under part number 70-2879. This is for 1976 and later T140's.

Now if you have a drive side case that is 2 1/2" (not to be confused with the early 2 1/2" timing side case that used a 70-2877 1" by 2 1/2" bearing) I have no idea what you have.
John


Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131110
12/21/07 4:54 pm
12/21/07 4:54 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 80
Hamilton, Va
cwicker Offline OP
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cwicker  Offline OP
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Hamilton, Va
Thanks for the responses. Unfortunately I think this fuzzy picture is becoming more painfully clear with your responses.
John as you pointed out the bearings are indeed supose to be the same size on the case halves. They are however, 2 different sizes. I have to think that when when I had the engine rebuilt and the bearing conversion done as per the shops suggestion that something must have happened during that conversion. The bearings were the same on both sides when the engine was torn down for that rebuild. Since the T/S case now has a smaller size brg. than the D/S I'm not sure what to do at this point. I have put 9300mi on the bike in this configuration. That is probably why I'm having a hard time coming up with that bearing.

Thanks,
Cliff

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131111
12/21/07 5:44 pm
12/21/07 5:44 pm
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Jon W. Whitley Online content

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Is the O.D. and depth the same for the location of the bearings in each case (bearing housing)?

Check and make sure you have matching case halves.Do you know if they were matching before you sent it to the engine builder? The timing side of the 1953 and earlier 500/650 P/U engines did use a roller bearing.1954 on up 650's used the big bearings on both sides.

I understand your engine is a 1957 T110, so it should (as you know) use the E1591 ball bearings on both sides.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131112
12/21/07 7:52 pm
12/21/07 7:52 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 80
Hamilton, Va
cwicker Offline OP
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cwicker  Offline OP
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Hamilton, Va
I honestly can't say they were matching. I can say that when I split the cases 9300mi ago that both halves had the same size bearings as I still have those old ones. Looking at the case halves, the D/S has a PN E2892 and a casting # J 54 AM S these are inside the case. The T/S has no PN or casting# inside case, outside but under generator mount has 710 stamped and where timing gears are PN E2219 & casting #AM 2. Now That I think back to Changing oil at 50, 150, 500 miles after rebuild I had a pesty oil leak at the sump, at 1500 mi I found the problem at the oil sump boss. Rt. 1/2 vs Lt. 1/2 sump sealing suface was higher on one 1/2 than other. I thought that was strange at the time but just flat filed it to match the surfaces and stoped the leak.
Parts book shows that T/S halve should be E3282 if I read it right. Well dammit, I'm stuck in the ozone again!
Thanks,
Cliff

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131113
12/22/07 2:49 am
12/22/07 2:49 am
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Jon W. Whitley Online content

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The drive side number is correct and I would imagine you know from the numbers stamped into the case that should match your frame numbers, unless this is a bitsa?

Yes, the timing side should be E3282 for the T110.Personally, I suspect a switch-er-roo. I would make contact with the rebuilder and see just what is going on????

I will be with my total library of parts books and set's of cases that I have both small and large timing side bearings. The only manual I have on hand is a 1956 "B" Range,but I will have all at my disposal tomorrow and I will let you know what those numbers mean.

Sounds to me like possibly your timing side case was swapped, but that would have also been a swap for your crank as well. Both engine cases should have a stamp in them up front ( as you most likely know ) and if they don't match that's the first sign of trouble right there. the other is that you had E1591 bearings installed on both sides to begin with and now you don't.

Did you remove the bearings yourself 9,300 miles ago? Also, measure the journal of the timing side of the crank that the bearing fits to.The smaller T/S crank is 1".


Posted by cwicker:
Quote:
Looking at the case halves, the D/S has a PN E2892 and a casting # J 54 AM S these are inside the case. The T/S has no PN or casting# inside case, outside but under generator mount has 710 stamped and where timing gears are PN E2219 & casting #AM 2. Now That I think back to Changing oil at 50, 150, 500 miles after rebuild I had a pesty oil leak at the sump, at 1500 mi I found the problem at the oil sump boss. Rt. 1/2 vs Lt. 1/2 sump sealing suface was higher on one 1/2 than other. I thought that was strange at the time but just flat filed it to match the surfaces and stoped the leak.
Parts book shows that T/S halve should be E3282 if I read it right.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131114
12/22/07 2:11 pm
12/22/07 2:11 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 80
Hamilton, Va
cwicker Offline OP
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cwicker  Offline OP
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Hamilton, Va
Thanks Jon,
Yes I did remove the crank myself, although it was broken in half at the time. Lucky for somebody the cases were not damaged. I had to drive the timing side half of the crank out of that bearing. Funny though, both halves of the broken crank turned freely in each case. The old crank was a 3 piece. I removed the brgs. also my self and they were the same size in each case half.
When I took everything dismantled to the reputable shop for the repair, he suggested converting the engine to a 1 piece crank and install a roller brg in the case. Now I did not really know what all that meant at the time but it sounded like it would be stronger and more reliable so lets do it. The crank upon disassembly looks great and the journal on both sides of the crank are <1 1/8, I took off the rods and shells are std. and look good. The whole reason for this tear down is only to chase down 3/16 side/side play of the crank in the case when everything was tight.
Man my *** hurts,
Cliff

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131115
12/23/07 5:02 pm
12/23/07 5:02 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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Jon W. Whitley Online content

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E2219 is definitely a small bearing case. The oldest parts book I have is for a 1947 and the use of the E2219 T/S/ case was in use then and up through 1953.

Now,it would definitely appear you have had your T/S case swapped by the engine builder. There have been people in the past who have used a later big bearing crank and a suitable bearing in those cases.

Steve Wilson also mentions in his book: "Triumph Motorcycles 1950-1988", that there was a bearing conversion put out by the factory, but fails to mention a bearing number.

So, the roller bearing you have now marked MADE IN ENGLAND LRJA 1 1/8 31E50 R & M is not able to be found in a bearing cross reference search? I too was on a quest to find this bearing size and a part number ( I didn't have any number ) a few years ago until I finally gave up. Even the long established parts suppliers I talked to didn't or hadn't heard of it eek

It would be great if you could contact the rebuilder and find out what exactly happened and where they obtained the bearing, etc. I would want to know why my case was substituted for another "older" case and not machined correctly since they aren't matching numbers cases???

beerchug


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131116
12/23/07 11:26 pm
12/23/07 11:26 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,914
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content
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HawaiianTiger  Online Content
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Maui Hawaii
I purchased that bearing from Moore's cycle center a few years back. It was pricey. The bike I was working on was a hopped up '53 6T. It used the turned-down one piece crank conversion and the roller bearing from that era. I've seen several of these conversions and can't say I agree that you accomplish much by doing this. You've only traded one weakness(bolt-up crank) for another(shaved down crank.)Shame about the buggering of your motor, tho. Hard to imagine the scenario where a pro would opt to use a small bearing TS case half with a big bearing left half. Doesn't make sense.

The engine I rebuilt with that crank set-up is still holding up well under an unsympathetic owner. Says something, I suppose.

Keep looking, those bearings are out there.

Edit; I've re-read your posts but cannot determine if you have an unmolested one piece crank. The modification outlined above requires that you machine down the main bearing journal on the timing side to fit the roller bearing for the earlier bikes. Now, I've only heard rumors about the supposed conversion bearing that allows you to drop a one piece crank into a small bearing set of cases. It's like an urban legend....we need myth busters here....

Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131117
12/24/07 3:36 am
12/24/07 3:36 am
Joined: Aug 2001
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Jon W. Whitley Online content

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Using the turned down journal to use the E2877 bearing is the option. Where is this supposed bearing and number that has been referred to that allows the later cranks to be installed into the smaller bearing case without turning down the journal? Somebody out there has to know this...man I wish Steve Wilson would have elaborated on that confused

But his journals are both the same size and haven't been turned down???? So, this bearing listed...is this the mystery bearing?

beerchug


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131118
12/24/07 1:07 pm
12/24/07 1:07 pm
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,662
East Bethany New York
Dick Harris Offline
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Dick Harris  Offline
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East Bethany New York
Interesting!!! This may be a clue to a strange NOS crank that I have in my possession.It is a one piece crank,1 1/8 shaft on the drive end which has 3/4 threaded section. On the timing end the Main bearing shaft is 1". The rod throws are standard size for the late model insert type rods.What do you all think? confused Dick

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131119
12/24/07 3:35 pm
12/24/07 3:35 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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Jon W. Whitley Online content

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Hard to say Dick. The supposed factory solution was to use a bearing that fit the 1 1/8" journal of the big bearing cranks with the O.D. to match the small bearing T/S case. An early small bearing generator crank with later type MB journals is indeed puzzling!

beerchug


Posted by Dick Harris:
Quote:
The rod throws are standard size for the late model insert type rods.What do you all think? Dick


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131120
12/25/07 2:31 am
12/25/07 2:31 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,914
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content
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HawaiianTiger  Online Content
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There were a number of odd replacement parts to come from the factory during the years, and I'm sure that was one of them. One other that I've seen is nine bolt heads drilled for eight bolt pattern as a replacement for the the earlier heads.

If we, the Britbike forum et al cannot come up with the legendary coversion bearing for small bearing cases then it must not exist at all.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131121
12/25/07 9:27 am
12/25/07 9:27 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,457
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Tell me if I'm mad, ok.

What about finding a metric bearing that nearly fits and getting it ground to size?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131122
12/25/07 10:03 am
12/25/07 10:03 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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I can only say that grinding bearings is known territory and works, so why not?

Blapper redwine

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131123
12/25/07 3:09 pm
12/25/07 3:09 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
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Mr Mike Offline
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Cape Carteret, NC
Cwicker,
There is a bearing house that I use to cross refernce bearing applications. They have a website...sales@buffalobearings.com. 1-800 669-8019. They can identify, cross, locate and ship bearings. Maybe they can help you out.
Mr Mike

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131124
12/27/07 3:23 pm
12/27/07 3:23 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 80
Hamilton, Va
cwicker Offline OP
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cwicker  Offline OP
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Hamilton, Va
Thanks to all who have responded! I talked with the shop that did the rebuild and conversion and he says he would not have replaced the T/S case. I told him I still have the 3 piece crank that came out of the cases before I took it to him and that the bearings were Identical on both sides. They state they would not have done that. The only thing we both agree on is that there are 2 different brgs.
Bottom line he has agreed to send me a brg. for the T/S. This will be a ball brg. instead of a roller. With this I am undoing the roller conversion he did to the T/S.
All who have responded seem to agree that the roller should be installed on the D/S case. I have not been able to find a roller that matches up with that brg, Has anyone out there done this conversion that may have a brg. # that would match the D/S ball bearing specs? Interesting enough on the invoice from the rebuild, there is no mention of said conversion and there is only 1 bearing charged which is the brg. on the D/S. I guess the roller brg. on the T/S was a freebie. OHHH BOY!
Thanks to all,
Cliff

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131125
12/27/07 9:47 pm
12/27/07 9:47 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 894
newcastle australia
trevinoz Online content
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newcastle australia
I think I would not be going near that shop again and would tell all and sundry of my experience.

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131126
12/28/07 10:21 pm
12/28/07 10:21 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 80
Hamilton, Va
cwicker Offline OP
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cwicker  Offline OP
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Hamilton, Va
Hey Mr. Mike,
Give that man a ceegar! I calledbuffalobearings.com. 1-800 669-8019 and talked to one of the sons. Very helpful people. He at 1st came up with the same answers all the other brg shops I had been talking with. Was on the phone waiting and he told me no such brg. Then he said wait a minute. I heard an older guy talking to him, it was his dad, he came back and asked me to wait a few more minutes while he checked in the back for an old book. BINGO!
He found every brg. I had inquired about in the last 3 pages of an old european catalog that had the LRJA #'s. So finally I have a source, thanks to Mr. Mike. He is also sharing a copy of those 3 pages with me for future reference beerchug clap laugh
Many thanks,
Cliff

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131127
12/30/07 12:16 am
12/30/07 12:16 am
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Jon W. Whitley Online content

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Cliff,

The roller bearing for the D/S that replaced the E1591 bearing is E2879, sticking to John Healy's note of using the E2879 bearing number of MRJA 1 1/8 CN or 68-0625.

A note concerning the small bearing P/U cranks. The E2877 bearing was a roller bearing, which I meant to inform you of earlier.

I am glad to hear you are getting everything sorted.

I would really like the bearing number of the T/S ball bearing that is being sent to you?

beerchug


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131128
12/30/07 3:02 am
12/30/07 3:02 am
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 80
Hamilton, Va
cwicker Offline OP
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cwicker  Offline OP
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Hamilton, Va
Jon,
As soon as I get that ball brg for the T/S I will post it for you. What I'm going to do is install that ball brg in the T/S case as that appears to be how the crank is located in the case. Does this sound workable? I can get a double lipped roller that size for the T/S which I guess would also locate the crank the same way the ball would. Buffalo brgs stated that they found the listing for that brg as a ball, cylindrical single lip and cyl double lipped. The crank brg journals are the same size on both ends which is 1 1/8. I am confused by John's description of these brgs

The roller bearing MRJA 1 1/8 CN condition is typically sold under part number 68-0625 and 70-2879.

YOU DONT want MRJA 1 1/8 C2 condition also sold under part number 70-2879. This is for 1976 and later T140's.

What is the significance of the CN vs C2 as it looks like both brgs have the same 70-2879 #

John was correct that D/S does measure 2 13/16" it was the T/S that measured 2 1/2 x 1 1/8"

Do you see any problem with this combo:
T/S ball brg 2 1/2 x 1 1/8 or a roller with a single or double lip roller for the D/S?

Thanks to all,
Cliff

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131129
12/30/07 7:28 am
12/30/07 7:28 am
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Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Cliff,
CN, C2 C? specifies the internal clearance that the bearing comes with. The larger the number, the looser the bearing. NOTE that the bearing clearance specified is important, tighter (lower number) is NOT better. You will be taking your motor apart again soon if you fit the wrong one.
HTH
Blapper redwine

Re: pre unit roller bearing conversion case conversion. #131130
12/31/07 7:08 am
12/31/07 7:08 am
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Jon W. Whitley Online content

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Hi Cliff,

Personally, I would run the E1591 bearing on the drive side. I have read of differing views on the roller vs ball for Pre-Units...have done a lot of research tonight but could not find it.

Seems to me the E1591 is able to withstand the forces put on it by the longer primary chain and better able to compensate for the separate gearbox ( adjustment, side to side movement, etc. )that come into play with that set-up.Supposedly the forces combined have thought to be harsh conditions for the D/S bearing and the E1591 bearing was better able to stand up tot he punishment.

I am not a bearing expert, but I am pretty sure I have read this stuff somewhere confused it's the where I can't remember! It would seem the roller would be better and maybe it is!

Even if those issues aren't a factor, the E1591 was fine for that engine, is readily available, more affordable and the correct one. beerchug


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

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