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#124961 - 09/27/07 3:38 pm 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 12
gabriel Offline
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gabriel  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 12
Seattle
I've decided to ditch the wet clutch and go with some dry plates on my '67 Triumph Bonneville so I can open up the primary and look like a tuff guy. Does anyone know where I can get these dry or wet/dry clutch plates?

Thanks

Gabe

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#124962 - 09/27/07 6:31 pm Re: 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Blapper Offline
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Blapper  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Hi Gabriel,
Unfortunately there is a bit more to it than that. You cannot run your chain dry, so you must convert to belt drive. There are many belt drives around for you to choose between, but you shouldn't choose on the basis of cheapest or dearest, you should weigh up the pro's and con's of them all and then pick the one you think is best. Once you have it, you have to open your chaincase up one way or the other (removal is not the safest option!) in order to cool your alternator, clutch and the belt itself. If you are into multiple drag starts, you may want to think again about it all because that will cause too much heat for the belt to cope with.
DO remember belts and stones don't mix, so many smaller holes in the cover are better than big ones, and DON'T buy the first or cheapest you learn about. You may want to look at the MAP Cycle product or there's the Hayward from Britech. Form your own opinion, don't listem to the salesman - they all think theirs is the best and the others are rubbish wink
The bad news is the cost of a decent system, the good news is better gear selection, better midrange response, better clutch lever action. Don't forget to consider going all aluminium as that is where you save the big weight.
Good luck!
Blapper redwine

#124963 - 09/28/07 3:29 pm Re: 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
beltdriveman Offline
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beltdriveman  Offline
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Posts: 706
As the Synchroflex At10 belt was, according to Mr Hayward in his article in Roadholder mag a few years back 'Designed to run with oil' and that he recommended 'my dry belt users keep their belt well greased' and that the belt was more efficient when run with oil....whilst a letter from the belt manufactures UK agents Enginering Director told me the AT10 belt was designed to be run dry and should be for max efficiency then I can see no reason why a chain should not be run DRY!!!!!!! (Hell can one not buy a 1/2 x 5/16 singlex chain with 'o' ring seals these days?)
Of course a later letter to me from the Synchroflex Uk agents also stated that no testing to determine the power losses that may occure when running an AT10 belt on a Triumph Twin primary with oil had taken place. A few months prior to that Mr Hayward had written in Roadholder that the power losses due to oil were so small they were difficult to measure!!!!! Clearly a person with enough money and time to do his own testing.
I note on the web that Lytedrive are now advertising their 32mm wide American made Synchroflex belts as being 'Made to run in oil'.I would suggest that before buying such a system you phone the belt MANUFACTURER and ask the question as to whether the belts were designed or made to run with oil. They might even tell you about the increased chance of the belt jumping pulley teeth (racheting) with oil about...for example. Think you will find that the belts construction is oil resistant and that this enables them to be employed in industrial situations where a tad of oil contamination cannot be avoided. As I remember it the very olde technology trapizoidal toothed Uniroyal Power Grip belts of the early 60s could be obtained in a construction 'suitable for use submarged in commercial engine oil'. However I know Uniroyal had done testing to show the power losses of so doing.......
Clearly bull**** by system makers hasnt decreased since Supercycle magazine wrote in 1977 about some US system makers and I quote 'Unfortunately in the motorcycle belt drive world the makers have fairly muddied the waters as far as the consumer is concerned. they have carelessly laid out claims they know to be false........'
Personally on a 750 Triumph I would end up using a designed to be run dry 20mm wide modern Gates 'poly' belt with an all alloy dry 3 friction plate diaphragm spring clutch giving a clutch with a static weight of around 5-6 lb in total with one or at worst very easy two finger clutch lever operation and a clutch with a tad more torque capacity than the std vastly overweight flywheel/so called clutch so it didnt suffer from slip when fully engaged.....
6 interfaces x 500 lbf clamp load x 0.21 ft effective radius x .35 Coeff of Friction = 220 ft lb clutch torque capacity or somewhat greater than that of the std lump with oil or oil mist on the friction interfaces. Sorry, just did that quick calculation to prove to myself I wasnt talking b******s.
Of course the stupid designed in 1800 or wheneverTriumph mainshaft would of been changed or modified so the taper was now a Norton spline
and there would be a proper mainshaft support bearing behind the clutch.
Tee hee.Tongue in cheek.

#124964 - 09/28/07 3:38 pm Re: 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,150
bodine031 Online content
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bodine031  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,150
melbourne florida
got a bsa a65 chopper the wife's and my 500 tri/chopper both run open primary's with chains using BARNETT clutches in both.every now and then squirt the p/chains with chain lube.this has been running like this over 5 yrs with no problems.granted they rarely go in the rain and 1500/2000 miles a year is alot.but it works

#124965 - 10/02/07 6:01 pm Re: 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 8
Brittown Offline
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Brittown  Offline
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Posts: 8
So Cal
Here's a nice belt drive from QPD I put on my 71bonnie. Since oil runs through this area in this year you have to take an extra step and plug it up.



#124966 - 10/02/07 8:08 pm Re: 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 178
Phrog Offline
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Phrog  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 178
Sydney, Australia. I might be ...
Quote:
Originally posted by Brittown:
Since oil runs through this area in this year you have to take an extra step and plug it up.
What are you going to do about your crankcase breather?


Glenn.
1969 T120
"SUCH IS LIFE"
#124967 - 10/02/07 9:33 pm Re: 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 8
Brittown Offline
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Brittown  Offline
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Posts: 8
So Cal
good question Phrog.

My buddy Meatball did the surgery on it but if I remember correctly after we plugged the regular breather off we ran a new one off the crankcase behind the barrels. The spot where you but the tool in to check if the motor is at top dead center. Take the inspection cap off and place a breather there. The downside is a little oil might pool in that area, but if you keep at it all things will be good.

#124968 - 10/03/07 12:48 pm Re: 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
beltdriveman Offline
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beltdriveman  Offline
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Posts: 706
I must ask what breather system? Surely not that 'lets breath the crankcase into the chaincase using it as a plenum chamber with a take off point for supplying air pressure to the paint spray shop!!!!'
The answer to the question is that you fit a real crankcase breather and do it CORRECTLY so that the motor no longer acts as a compressor shoving oil out of every joint it can.
One could for example do it as I would which is to go OTT by running a say 1/4 inch bore breather pipe back to the oil tank onto which one has grafted a BMW motorcycle reed valve breather with a pipe running from it either into the airbox or to atmosphere. Alternatively you could use what was I believe a rather clever olde Triumph idea long forgotten......on oil in frame lumps you run a small breather pipe from a rocker box cover (one that stays on the bike and doesnt fall off due to vibes that is..Classic bike test..'I was reminded I was riding a Triumph when a rocker cover overtook me....')and bore a VERY SMALL hole in the tank filler cap. As pistons come down creating pressure this pressurises the oil tank and pressurised air gets pumped out of small hole to lower atmospheric outside pressure. Pistons go back up but very little air outside at atmspheric gets sucked back in...give it a few revs and crankcase pressure settles down to less than 1 lb above atmospheric.Ie you no longer ride a compressor!! I believe this is the method Mr Oswald recommends for his belt drive systems.
Personally I always thought the chain case breather was a rather clever way of allowing for the many owners incapable of maintaining their chain case oil level and running their chains totally dry but I understand, from having just asked a gent for the true tale, is that it was a Doug Hele idea which worked perfectly well on race bikes where the oil all got changed on a regular basis but that on the normal not so well maintained road bikes seen in the Service Dept the chaincase resulted in condensation which contaminated the oil which became sludge with rust forming on chains and with the oil/sludge returning into the crankcase carrying microscopic bits of metal and friction material.......I also understand a few people at Triumph who actually had to deal with servicing etc were very against the whole idea but by that time such people were never listened to....just as long as the race bikes won at Daytona......... I must admit I was rather suprised to be told it was a Doug Hele idea......Mind you was he simply involved with the race bikes at the time and someone else decided to incorporate the idea on the production lumps??

#124969 - 10/03/07 3:30 pm Re: 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,971
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,971
Boston, Massachusetts
Hmmm Doug Hele indeed, the primary breather was used by Richard Bender, Baltimore TriCor service technicain and Gary Nixon's race mechanic, long before it became corporate...


#124970 - 10/03/07 3:33 pm Re: 1967 Triumph (650) Dry Clutch Plates?  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Blapper Offline
BritBike Forum member
Blapper  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Hey Brittown/gabriel,
My strong advice would be to a/ use a KrankVent or as bdm says a BMW reed valve system, and b/ do NOT take it off the cases at the TDC tool hole. That will only result in maximum oil getting into the breather and contaminating the valve or squirting out of the end of the breather pipe.
The best place to take it off requires a mod to the pointy bit at the front of the engine where it is bolted to the frame. That is a seperate void as standard, but if you drill holes into it from the crank case (two 1/4" at the to of each case half and one at the bottom), then fill it with a good stainless steel pot scourer or two to catch any oil droplets which will then drain back through the bottom holes, and a 1/2 x 20 UNC hole in the top for a standard breather spigot, you have the best method of breathing for the bike you have. If you buy a MAP belt drive (recommended), don't bother with their valve as it has too much mass. They sell it separately, so just don't buy it. If you want to know more about this system, you could email me.

HTH

Blapper redwine


Moderated by  John Healy 


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