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Primary, clutch, & oil-T140V #118165
06/16/07 4:47 am
06/16/07 4:47 am
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 119
Missouri
Gearard Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Gearard  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 119
Missouri
I must admit to knowing little about my T140V and all of the important details, but I'm trying to learn. That is why I'm looking for ideas about primary oil. I know that the current oil leaks will probably require dismantling of the primary, clutch and seals. I have a problem with the clutch sticking and know this is fairly common. I think that the clutch parts may well be original, less than 9k miles and works very well once freed up. New plates may be in order, that'll be determined after I take things apart to replace seals. I'll also see first hand at that time what the breather set-up is between the engine and primary.

According to it's vintage, I understand there is some sharing of atmospheres between the two (thru three small holes?). From what I've gathered thus far, reading a number of posts I've found on the subject, the oil really doesn't get mixed and exchanged between the engine and primary. Although, with the breather holes, the opportunity to run ATF in the primary is eliminated, even tough the ATF would probably help with the clutch sticking.

My understand then is: 1) oil between engine and primary is not really mixed as fluids. 2) only oil mist between the two is exchanged. 3) ATF = 10W, give or take a couple of viscosity points. 4) Higher viscosity primary oil = sticking plates.

So I'd like to get anybody's opinion on using a low viscocity oil(10w?) in the primary case?

I thought maybe the advantages would be: 1) compatible oil mist for sharing, one viscosity shouldn't affect the other much between (regular, 1k mile) oil changes. 2)Lubrication comparable to ATF. 3) Reduced sticking of clutch plates.

I haven't found anything to support or destroy this idea. If anyone could let me know their opinions, it will help me understand the best oil to use in my primary case. confused


Another day, a few more miles...and a smile! Life is good!
'76 T140V
'10 T100
'58 A10
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Re: Primary, clutch, & oil-T140V #118166
06/16/07 9:36 am
06/16/07 9:36 am
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 19
Black Isle , Scotland
A
Airedale Offline
BritBike Forum
Airedale  Offline
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A

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 19
Black Isle , Scotland
Hi Gearard
The oil in the engine will fill up your chaincase. if you dont put any oil in your chaincase you will find that it fills up with the engine oil very quickly not just by misting.You unfortunately cannot put another oil in the chaincase or it will contaminate your engine oil even if you do 1000 mile changes.The oil gets into the chaincase via holes in the crankcase and through the primary side main bearing.the engine 'also' breathes through these apertures so if you put a seal on the bearing and blocked up the holes you would have to sort out other engine breathing arrangements.Many people talk about using the hole in the crankcase for the tdc indicator but this on its own is not sufficient to allow the engine to breathe correctly.The clutch is the worst thing on the whole bike and cause everyone allmost everyone else as much grief as you.Ther are some options for replacing this unit with a completely different clutch which may well cure this problem but its well worth checking everything is ok and spending the required 3 days 800 cigarettes and 3000 brews setting it up properly,then its just as you say new seals and gaskets to sort the leaks.

Re: Primary, clutch, & oil-T140V #118167
06/16/07 12:26 pm
06/16/07 12:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 119
Missouri
Gearard Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Gearard  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 119
Missouri
This is what's great about this site, different opinions. Local Triumph expert had advised using the proper engine oil, 'Morris Elite 50', but said that any cheap oil could be used in the primary case. So I figured that the oil must not be exchanged during motor running operations. Guess that myself and maybe another local are mistaken...


Another day, a few more miles...and a smile! Life is good!
'76 T140V
'10 T100
'58 A10
Re: Primary, clutch, & oil-T140V #118168
06/16/07 12:33 pm
06/16/07 12:33 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 19
Black Isle , Scotland
A
Airedale Offline
BritBike Forum
Airedale  Offline
BritBike Forum
A

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 19
Black Isle , Scotland
Hi Gearard
The oil you mention morris 50, Is this a straight 50 oil? if it is no wonder your clutch is a bit of a drag!!! Triumph recomended a 20/50 multigrade for your bike.

(edited as have checked on morris oil)
This oil is not correct for your bike drain it off and use it and any you have left to paint your fence. refil the bike with a good quality 20/50 oil. dont use fully synthetic your clutch is likely to slip like a greased eel.

Re: Primary, clutch, & oil-T140V #118169
06/16/07 1:21 pm
06/16/07 1:21 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,265
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,265
North Georgia, USA
G -
Airedale has it right, although I had some trouble understanding his Scottish accent. wink

On all T140's there is a COMPLETE sharing of "atmospheres" between the engine and primary. That decision was made by the factory when your bike was built. Oil mist is blown at high speed into the primary case through the DS main bearing, and then the excess weeps back into the engine through the "3 small holes". Therefore, your engine oil is COMPLETELY shared with the primary oil. As a result, you DO NOT have a choice of primary oils... your engine oil IS your primary oil. Period.

For this reason, you do not want to EVER put ATF in your primary. When we discuss ATF in the primary, we are generally talking pre-1970 650's and 500's. After 1970, almost the full Triumph line converted to "breather-type primaries". Additionally, for this reason you always want to drain both the primary AND the OIF when changing the oil.

You did not mention a year, but all T140's fall into the later category. Little details like this is why it's important to tell us the YEAR of your bike every time you ask a question.


Now that that is clear, there is the matter of the oil itself. In the USA, modern car oils are NOT compatible with older wet clutches, so it is not enough to cruise down to Wal-Mart and pick up any old 20W50 motor oil. You should be using 20W50 "motorcycle oil".

Hope this helps! bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Primary, clutch, & oil-T140V #118170
06/17/07 4:19 pm
06/17/07 4:19 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 119
Missouri
Gearard Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Gearard  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 119
Missouri
Thanks Airedale and RF, both of your replies are helpful. It's interesting how local 'experts' may avoid spoiling a good piece of advice with the truth. Whether or not they are aware of the acccuracy of their beliefs, I can only guess. Well, at least it's a good source for parts. It didn't seem possible to not have at least a moderately high level of oil sharing, but not having even seen the inside of one, or any other real experience with the motor, I wanted to be sure of how it works. I believe in trying to get the most informed advice available. Thanks you all for the information you make available!

I haven't used any of the Morris 50, which is a straight 50W oil, but I have been using Castrol 4T 20W-50 motorcycle oil in both the Triumph and my BSA. But the clutch is sometimes difficult to free up if the T140 has been sitting for a few days. I'd venture to say, from the possible low mileage of the bike, that the clutch is OEM.

And the oil leaks all seem to come from the DS, bottom of the motor. It seems from the manual that all of the seals that may need replacement are accessible thru the primary and clutch. Before I begin any repairs, would I need to get any special tools to disassemble anything in the primary case? The manual mentions an engine sprocket puller, a clutch locking plate and clutch center extractor. Are these easily available and necessary?

Thanks again for the info!


Another day, a few more miles...and a smile! Life is good!
'76 T140V
'10 T100
'58 A10
Re: Primary, clutch, & oil-T140V #118171
06/17/07 4:32 pm
06/17/07 4:32 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 19
Black Isle , Scotland
A
Airedale Offline
BritBike Forum
Airedale  Offline
BritBike Forum
A

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 19
Black Isle , Scotland
Hi Gearard
You will definitely need the clutch puller. you may be able to fabricate some thing to lock up the clutch your self. But the proper tool makes things a lot easier.I have found that sometimes the engine sprocket is a nice sliding fit on the shaft and does'nt need a puller,but most of the time the puller is required,If you are keeping the bike its worth getting all the special tools, as for instance the primary drive has to come off to change the gearbox sprocket.And it saves a thousand profanities, grazed knucles and broken parts whilst "you just see if this pry bar will do the job Dohhh!!" all are easily available and are not that expensive.

edit: Brew = mug of tea.


Moderated by  John Healy 


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