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4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110421
02/21/07 1:54 am
02/21/07 1:54 am
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 110
Orlando, FL
Tiger73 Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Tiger73  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 110
Orlando, FL
I realize that I'm new to this site and don't understand all the intricacies involved here but I would like some straight answers about a very important subject. Has anyone had a problem with 4 valve or 2 valve oil pumps. Specifically
where the sliding block gets shredded and the breaks apart causing debris to be pumped through the motor.
Hopefully I will get a straight answer form someone who my have had the same problem, without a lot of B.S.
Thanks,
Ken mad


Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty, well preserved body, but rather to slide in, broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out and loudly proclaiming,"WOW-WHAT A RIDE"!

73 TR7RV
71 BSA B50 SS
71 BSA A65T
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Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110422
02/21/07 3:11 am
02/21/07 3:11 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,258
arkansas
L
leon bee Offline
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leon bee  Offline
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L

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,258
arkansas
Are you expecting BS here? Not much of that at this site. I've never seen one of those 4x pumps, but I know there was some discussion not all that long ago. You might scan back through old posts, or the search function here works pretty well.

Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110423
02/21/07 6:34 am
02/21/07 6:34 am
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 110
Orlando, FL
Tiger73 Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Tiger73  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 110
Orlando, FL
leon,
I have tried to scan through old posts and use the search option, however, neither seems to work to well. Try it sometime and you will see what I mean. As a matter of fact, I tried to find out about any posts concerning the best oil for motorcycles. I tried a search using "oil",
"best oil", "motorcycle oil", etc. and not one post concerning oil came up! I am also tired of members saying when someone asks a question, to just look it up in the posts. In case you wern't aware, there are over 50 pages of posts on this site. How hard can it be to just answer someones question to the best of your ability even though it may have been already covered sometime in the past. I would think that the hole purpose of this site is to educate new owners of British bikes and to enhance the ownership of all British bike owners in an attempt to keep this experiece alive. Maybe I'm wrong.

Respectfully Submitted,
Ken


Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty, well preserved body, but rather to slide in, broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out and loudly proclaiming,"WOW-WHAT A RIDE"!

73 TR7RV
71 BSA B50 SS
71 BSA A65T
Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110424
02/21/07 7:12 am
02/21/07 7:12 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,258
arkansas
L
leon bee Offline
BritBike Forum member
leon bee  Offline
BritBike Forum member
L

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,258
arkansas
I am surprised you can find anything wrong with my reply. I've been reading this board almost daily for I guess about 4 years. I sometimes scroll back page after page looking for something. I also use the search, have used it just in the last few days. I searched "how to post a photo", and "crankshaft balancing". Got good results, too.

There really has been quite a bit of recent discussion of pumps, maybe you were in on it? John H. has mentioned the 4x pumps. As for oil, that has been discussed so much that if you searched you might break the computers! Anyway, good luck, I hope somebody comes along soon with some usable info before you get irritated.

Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110425
02/21/07 7:44 am
02/21/07 7:44 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,258
arkansas
L
leon bee Offline
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leon bee  Offline
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L

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,258
arkansas
The search only took me a minute to find about all there was on the 4 valve pumps, you're right- there isn't much. I read your posts from a few days ago. What are you trying to learn? At this point, you may be the expert. Are you hoping to affix blame?

Am I aware there are 50 pages of old posts? Yes, I've read every single one. Literally. If the board hadn't crashed a couple years ago, I guess there would be well over 100. Thats just Triumph, wait till you get a BSA- then there's another 40 pages over there. Plus, you need to read all the Brit in General posts.

Have you tried asking over at the Triumph Rat board? Not as busy over there, but there are a few guys there who know a lot.

Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110426
02/21/07 9:05 am
02/21/07 9:05 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,497
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,497
Scotland
Sounds like you are going to have to accept that yours is not a common problem. I know that doesn't help but you shouldn't take it out on the board.

This may be related, try reading these threads

http://www.britbike.com/ubb/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/13/t/004842.html#000000

and much more info in this one

http://www.britbike.com/ubb/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/13/t/005168.html#000000

These metal shaving were caused by rubbing pushrods but caused 2 pumps to fail, your trouble could be same or some other cause, you need to do a full strip down looking at every component and try to work out if the wear pattern is either the cause or the effect of the pump drive block disintergrating.

Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110427
02/21/07 11:43 am
02/21/07 11:43 am
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 706
NSW Australia
BrianFromOz Offline
BritBike Forum member
BrianFromOz  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 706
NSW Australia
Ken....with that kind of attitude youll be lucky if anyone bothers to help you....there is obviously something wrong with your browser if your searches arnt working....i just searched for "oil" and got 300 responses (the max) in 10 seconds


....also if you read the thread titled "We have lost a Good Friend" you may realize a few of the very knowledgeable experts who frequent this forum would be dealing with things alot more important than oil pumps or even bikes for that matter....
chill out


"What are you rebelling against?
What have you got?"

77 T140V

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Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110428
02/21/07 1:31 pm
02/21/07 1:31 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
P
phantom309 Offline
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phantom309  Offline
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P

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
Tiger, was this pump new?I had problems with two 4-valve pumps with one of the plungers being to long and the the block will not slide right in them till you trim it..If I had used them they would have eaten up the aluminum blocks.It did make a noise when the bike got warm.Good luck.


Tim Joyce
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Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110429
02/21/07 2:36 pm
02/21/07 2:36 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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John Healy  Offline

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J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
I realize that I'm new to this site and don't understand all the intricacies involved here but I would like some straight answers about a very important subject. Has anyone had a problem with 4 valve or 2 valve oil pumps. Specifically
where the sliding block gets shredded and the breaks apart causing debris to be pumped through the motor.
Hopefully I will get a straight answer form someone who my have had the same problem, without a lot of B.S.
Thanks,
Ken

Distributed, sold and used 4 valve pumps since they were first introduced 20 years ago, racing and on the street, with none of the problems ascribed in above posts. Although I have heard of pumps with long plungers, which did not allow the full rotation of the drive block without some binding, I have not seen one in person.

As Phantom indicates: It's just one more thing to check when doing a rebuild. Installing the drive and turning the camshaft to see if it turns freely before putting the center pinion gear in place and timing the cams. Given that the drive turns freely I would not expect any problems.

Now, as to your expecting us to jump to attention when someone posts: We all want to help but most of us have real jobs... we do this for fun! Get a life, we have one!


Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110430
02/21/07 3:13 pm
02/21/07 3:13 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 110
Orlando, FL
Tiger73 Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Tiger73  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 110
Orlando, FL
Leon, Kommando & Brian,
First let me apologize if I offended anyone or for apearing irritated. I was just frustrated after having one of those days when nothing seems to go right. I had to completely tear down an excellent, totally rebuild motor because of the oil pump issue. I found that the debris had gone completely through the motor and in and around the sludge tube. The good news is that the mains & rod journals appear alright but I may have to replace the rod bearings. Knowing that I will have to replace the oil pump, I was trying to find out whether I may have somehow installed it improperly or whether being a pattern part which I purchased locally from a supposedly reputable suppiler, may have been defective. I just don't want the same thing to happen again. Since I'm new to this site I will learn to use the search option more effectively so as not to bother other members about topics already covered. As to the passing of your good friend, I never had the pleasure of meeting him but I'm sure he was a real gentleman. For all that had the pleasure of his compamy, please accept my heartfelt condolences.
Ken shocked


Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty, well preserved body, but rather to slide in, broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out and loudly proclaiming,"WOW-WHAT A RIDE"!

73 TR7RV
71 BSA B50 SS
71 BSA A65T
Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110431
02/21/07 4:26 pm
02/21/07 4:26 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,497
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,497
Scotland
Apology accepted, can only suggest that you do a step by step strip down, if you find nothing else then it looks to be the overlong plunger, on reassembly you will need to spin the inlet cam to drive the pump and check for stiffness. It must have been that or the pump became clogged which restricted its movement, the stripdown should show you what clogged the pump.

Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110432
02/21/07 4:59 pm
02/21/07 4:59 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,258
arkansas
L
leon bee Offline
BritBike Forum member
leon bee  Offline
BritBike Forum member
L

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,258
arkansas
With me, its not so much bothering other people with previously asked questions. Its more like the guy with some real info on my problem could be out on the road that week, miss my question completely. Or even if it is somebody who doesn't want to respond to me cause he's tired of it, I still want to see what he had to say in the past. I hope you figure that pump deal out.

Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110433
02/21/07 6:21 pm
02/21/07 6:21 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,265
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,265
North Georgia, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger73:
I had to completely tear down an excellent, totally rebuild motor because of the oil pump issue. I found that the debris had gone completely through the motor and in and around the sludge tube. The good news is that the mains & rod journals appear alright but I may have to replace the rod bearings. Knowing that I will have to replace the oil pump, I was trying to find out whether I may have somehow installed it improperly or whether being a pattern part which I purchased locally from a supposedly reputable supplier, may have been defective. I just don't want the same thing to happen again.
Ken -
I thought we gave you great advice on your original question. If you'll remember, at that time I told you....

"Generally, anything can happen to these motors because all the weak points were repaired early on. I've never heard of this particular issue, but there's always a first time.

Generally, we do no tear down the complete engine for a job like this. Much better to clean what you can (including washing out the OIF engine oil tank) and fit the new part. You'd do this by removing the timing cover and sump plug and using compressed air and solvents to clean inside the timing chest and sump. You might even consider fitting an oil filter on your return line. Then ride the bike until you KNOW the engine needs rebuilding.

No engine wear can directly result until the shards are pumped back to the tank and then from the tank back into the engine. IF any of the shards do make it back to the oil tank they'll simply tend to settle on the bottom. Since I assume the bike has no oil filter at present, any wear you correct will be from things other than the exploded oil pump bar. Which, with only 2500 miles, is going to be nearly zero. Which is another way of saying you'll be wasting your time and money."


Your own admission that "The good news is that the mains & rod journals appear alright" is the proof that we we're NOT pulling your leg or trying in any way to deceive.

Now you asked for "straight answers"... so here it is, brother, but it's not going to be easy to swallow. At some point we often have to admit that we tried our best, BUT through our own inattention to detail bad things happen. I'm a trained Triumph mechanic with several years of dealership experience, and I freely admit that sometimes I screw up. [Not like our Australian friend "Tiger" who, the only time he screwed up when when he simply thought he screwed up, but he really hadn't! laughing ] All we can do then is admit our mistake, learn from the experience, and try not to repeat the mistake. Life is about falling down and getting back up.

So not to hammer you on the point, my friend, but the money and time you just shelled out would have been much better spent simply washing out the oil tank and installing an oil filter.

I feel for you in your present situation, because I've been there. But the answer is to buy a new oil pump block and fit it. And as John said, then rotate the camshaft with your finger tips with the oil pump fitted and see if there is any binding due to the oil pump plunger being too long. If there is any, then return or modify the pump.

You must have come to British bikes from Jap bikes. When you build a Jap engine all the parts fit and problems are 1 in a million. Not so with British bikes: Every Part Is Suspect. Even parts that came off the bike and seemed to be OK are suspect! And the worst offenders are the ones you take "brand new" out of the box. eek

In the end you can be happy in the fact that what makes us a "brotherhood" is not that we ride some strange bike with exceedingly poor road test reviews from 30 years ago. No! What truly binds us together is the unstated fact that we ALL have $29,000 rolled up in a bike that we can replace tomorrow for $1500.

laughing laughing


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110434
02/21/07 7:06 pm
02/21/07 7:06 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
Check the oil pump's piston plungers. There is a remote possibility that something got into the pump. If so there might be some "witness" marks where the bit jambed the plunger.

I would also fit the pump with a new drive block and rotate the cam. It just might give you some ideas... We have your words, you have all the clues...

This could have stressed or damage the drive block.


Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110435
02/22/07 1:27 am
02/22/07 1:27 am
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 110
Orlando, FL
Tiger73 Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Tiger73  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 110
Orlando, FL
You guys are all super and I really appreciate your comments. When I installed the 4 valve pump, it was brand new and I was told it was made in England. I was not aware that some of these pumps are made in Tiawan and may have some defects. I was not aware of this board, but followed the instructions as best I could. I have been riding and working on these bikes for over 40 yrs. and figured I could replace the pump without any problems. I'm sure that after hearing from all of you,I would have done things differently. You live and you learn. In response to RF's comment, my first bike was a BSA B50SS, I did not start out on Jap bikes although I have owned a couple throught the years. My first love is British bikes and will be until I can no longer ride or die. As far as the cost to repair the problem, I do my own work and its just a matter of parts. I guess I'm too particular but I could'nt just let things go and hope for the best. I would rather do things right and have trust in my ride. Besides, I enjoy working on the bike as much as riding it, and I guess thats what its all about. My main concern now is to obtain a good 4 valve pump,(plunger ears were damaged), install it properly, install a filter and replace the timing side bearing with the roller bearing if I can find out if it is a direct replacement or do I need other parts, machining, etc. to make it work.
Thanks for Your Advice,
Ken beerchug


Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty, well preserved body, but rather to slide in, broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out and loudly proclaiming,"WOW-WHAT A RIDE"!

73 TR7RV
71 BSA B50 SS
71 BSA A65T
Re: 4 Valve Oil Pump Destruction! #110436
02/22/07 6:56 am
02/22/07 6:56 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
BritBike Forum member
Tiger  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by phantom309:
Tiger, was this pump new?I had problems with two 4-valve pumps with one of the plungers being to long and the the block will not slide right in them till you trim it..If I had used them they would have eaten up the aluminum blocks.It did make a noise when the bike got warm.Good luck.
Would not have the foggiest old chap. laugh


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.

Moderated by  John Healy 


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