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#107795 - 01/07/07 7:10 pm Oil (again) need to decide now  
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btour Online content
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OK read lots of posts here and articles referred to on oil and still don't know. 71 bonne.

Bought some castrol 15/40 diesal oil. Put it in primary side. There will be some small amount castrol 20 50 in system, and I am debating putting castrol 20 50 back in engine because of the anti sludge, during storage.

Also am afraid that 40 is not high enough for air colled engine even in highs of 65 .degrees

Immediate worry is that diesal and other oil will not play well with each other even though brands are the same.

Anyone with experience mixing the two?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
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#107796 - 01/07/07 10:55 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Riff_Raff Offline
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Have never used diesel oil in my bikes, but the 20W50 should be just fine for your primary.

For the oil bag/motor oil, I use 20W50 in the winter months & straight 50W or even 60W in the summer months (hot weather state, often with triple-digit temps). If you're in MA, I'd think straight 40W would be fine in the summer, 50W being a possible option if it makes you feel more comfortable.


"Factory Stock Is A Suggestion Only"
#107797 - 01/08/07 1:20 am Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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BT -

More info here than you could shake a stick at.... wink

HTH,

Steve Prince


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#107798 - 01/08/07 2:40 am Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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RF Whatley Online content
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Tour -
1) Oil weights are chosen based on ambient operating temperatures, not how you feel. And too, if you'll bother to touch the frame after running down the road you'll see that the OIF acts like a huge oil cooler. An oil cooler with approximately 225 sq inches of surface area. Bottom line is that you'll want to follow the manufacturer's recommendations for weights at your operating ambients. And your ambients is something only you know. One thing for sure though, you do NOT want a solid weight oil in winter.

2) On a 1971 650cc engine, engine oil is shared with the primary case oil. Therefore, it's not clear what was gained by installing different weights in those 2 places. After 15 minutes of running the engine, the 2 weights will be thoroughly mixed. Probably no mechanical harm will result, but if you have concerns, then the natural question to ask is, "Then why did you do it?"

3) Not clear at all what the phrase "because of the anti sludge, during storage" means. IMHO sludge does not appear during storage, it is the product of metal and other debris created while running the engine. The oil keeps this debris in supension and circulates it constantly throughout the entire engine unless you install an oil filter. If you have sludge issues, then you need an oil filter.

4) Whether the 15W40 diesel oil is better or worse for your engine is determined by which one of the Castrol 20W50 oils you used: the car oil or the motorcycle oil? IMHO 15W40 makes an excellent oil weight for winter riding in Atlanta, and in fact that's what I'm currently running in my OIF bike.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#107799 - 01/08/07 3:27 am Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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btour

I don't know if 71 Bonnyvilles had the shared or separate lube systems.

However, if your bike does have the shared primary/engine oil system, then I guess you may have already mixed the two oils!

More knowledgeable members will know however.

Keith

#107800 - 01/08/07 3:36 am Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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azkar t140e Offline
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So Richard,

What's the difference between Castrol 20W50 car and motorcycle and how do you identify them? What is best for a 70's bonnie?

Azkar

#107801 - 01/08/07 4:12 am Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Quote:
Originally posted by azkar t140e:

What's the difference between Castrol 20W50 car and motorcycle

AIUI, the car oil will have the anti-friction and detergent additives in it.....

HTH,

Steve Prince


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#107802 - 01/08/07 8:24 am Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Friction modifiers in modern auto oil are bad for wet clutches, IMHO most oils recommended for late model autos are a pisspoor compromise anyway, being formulated to allow the vehicles to achieve mandated fuel mileage figures, seem to work OK in engines with hardly a gear or rolling bearing but that does not describe a Triumph.
Read the bit about polymer VI improvers in mineral oils and think of the moderate oil capacity of the OIF bikes, I would not run over 1000 miles between changes if using a wide viscosity range mineral oil.
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
I use 20W-60 in my pre OIF and change that at 1000 miles, with oil filter it holds nearly an imperial gallon.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#107803 - 01/08/07 6:05 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Hi All, thanks for the input. For this oil change it is too late. Had to ride last night, weather ws changing.

Tiger, what brand is that 20-60?

Mr. Whately, I have not seen Castrol 20-50 motorcycle oil. Only available in some motorcycle dealership at exoribant prices? I have always used Castol 20-50 as do most people around here. Of course it is not the same good dino stuff as when it just met the SH standards, so I am looking for a change. Something without friction mods (moly), and with zinc for cams. That is why I was looking to use diesal oil, but only goes to 40 weight. And
I am just nervous about a change.

What I was looking to know was just how much oil the primary exchanges with the engine. I read that there are just three tiny holes. I was thinking that if primary was correct level then not much engine oil would be exchanged. So putting castrol 15-40 diesal in chaincase was at least avoiding having moly or lots of it in there, to avoid clutch slipping, which actually did happen to me when the new and improved Castrol first appeared.

Why did Triumph make this change to share oil? Was it to make sure primary had some oil in it? A breathing thing? Anyone know?

If the two oils (same brand) play nice together, and their additives get along ( I read the article about how adding additives to a good oil could ruin the way it worked), then I have no problem.
So, I was hoping to find someone who had done it, and knew. If I could I would make the primary and engine oils not mix, but I read the thread which says it is not a good, or possible fix.

I think it is a lousy idea. You are supposed to drain that primary every 500 miles. That is almost every week. And then what you already have that runied oil circulating? My primary has particles, sand, rust, junk in it. I know I should pull the case, and wipe it out, and I will. Of course the screws are ancient and have been in there and the risk of having to extract and tap, etc. etc. Abd the way the primary is shaped makes the stuff and even the oil hard to just drain out. The tension adjuster is in the drain hole, and the particles, and the fact that oil was cold ( had to be, was guarding against sugar contamination, remember) and that condensation wiped that oil into a butter like consistencey made draining and flushing an ordeal. I patiently heated the case with a hair dryer, and poked a very fine wire in drain hole. And I found the method which I will follow in the future that worked best was to use my motorcycle jack and raise the front end almost four feet off the ground and drain through overflow hole.

And just getting at that drain plug is a nightmare. I bought a 7/16 swivel socket, which makes the job easier, but still tedious to get the plug started to replace. I am even thinking of geting ex pipes which go to other side just to make the job easy.

Why on earth would they make that plug so hard to get to when the job needs to be done so often?

Oh the sludge thing. Sure the stuff is fine when the bike is running and the stuff is in suspension. The problem of course is when it is being stored and stuff settles out like some kind of devilish cocktail. So lets hope their anti-sludge claim means it won't do that ( Mr. Whately it is now winter here in the NE, and although weather has been extrordinarly mild, it won't last, and this when my bike is mostly in active, on mile days I will kick or start it just to circulate things) So that is why I changed the oil also, would have done it anyway, even without fear of contamination, thinking that fresh oil without lots of use will not tend to settle, and sulpher will not tend to turn to acid, as with used oil.

We are all in the dark I think relying on what oil companies claim they do to their oil. I am put off on Castrol after reading that they went to court to get the right to claim that their synthetic oil is synthetic, when it is not. So now any company can claim the stuff is synthetic when it is not.

So my plan is now to find a diesal oil with higher than 40, and use that in riding months, ( because it is cheaper than syn, and I change it frequently) and use a full synthetic towards storing months to avoid acid, and sludge build up.

And I think Mr. Whately that your assumption that sludge is just wear from engine might be wrong, and that the stuff just settles after being exposed to a few heat cycles and exposure to combustion products.

I am very sorry to say, Mr. Whately, and it is hard to know because this is the internet, but I get the feeling that you assume that I am an idiot. I might be ignorant, but I am not stupid, and I am just trying to do the best I can, and learn as much as I can in this arcane world of triumph mechanics. And it is not easy, because not even experts agree.

So I have endeavoured to explain my reasoning as best I can, which makes for a very verbose post.

Thanks all.

Anyone know of a diesal oil with up tp 50 weight?
Is Mobil 1 a real synthetic? Is it the only one? U[ to what weights are these availble in? Although from what I have retained I think the thought was it does not matter because their real viscosity is much much better. I understand that you have to change them just as often, which makes paying the high price, when riding alot, want ot be avoided if a suitable alternative is available.

I tend not to trust these, so called motorcycle oils. What they have their own refineries? These boutique oils? And you think Castrol does a "special" run just for the little bit of motorcycle oil they sell? I think they just put the same stuff is a different bottle. As old as the bible, as "snake oil".


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#107804 - 01/08/07 6:34 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Oh, Mr Whately, I am sorry, you addressed the external filter issue. Yes I have one. A Norton style one. I bought it because I thought it was a good idea, even though that filter can be faulty and stop oil flow. It is after all just another black box, and you got to trust the manufacturer. But when I dropped the oil plate after extended storage, and saw what the old oil had done to my filter screen, ( eaten a hole right through it did), and I saw what that sludge was that settled to the bottom. Yikes.

I think you might be mistaken, I doubt that the oil filter will trap all the sludge. I will bet that when I drop that plate in the spring I will find some sludge on it.

I do think the external oil filter is a good idea to trap small particles of contamination and metal breakdown.

The orginal oil screen, was not available. I am still waiting for it to come into shop. Mine has the hole in the top, was told only made for two years. When it comes in it is going back in there. Although, mosts experts say "did not do much anyway" It sure is better than nothing to filter big particles BEFORE they go through engine, and maybe block the pump which I was told by Al jr. is like a Harley pump easily blocked, whereas, he claims Jap pumps are not.

Mr. Whately, in reviewing your post I found it is helpful, and I want you to understand that I really do appreciate it. I do. It is just that when you say things, like "if you will bother to touch the frame". I mean it makes me think that you feel I am just so stupid, or lazy, that I have not in 30 years ever considered how my oil was cooling.

I taught skiing full time for nine years, and am fully certified, no easy task in the NE. I might pass on to you I couple of thoughts.

Avoid "my cup full, your cup empty" attitudes. It might be a good intiation thing but really slows down the imparting of knowledge, and impedes learning. The other thought is "people do not care how much you know, until they know how much you care."


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#107805 - 01/08/07 6:42 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Fisherman Offline
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Oh boy, here we go again....

My 2 cents, worth about 1 cent...

I believe in clean oil vs. dirty oil.

I believe use what the engine manufacturer reccomends as to weight.

I believe that brands are nearly completely unimportant since they are all used in engines all over the globe, and I've seen little evidence that any well known brand is of such poor quality as to cause harm to an engine.

I have used 20W50 Castrol for 22 years in my un-rebuilt '72 TR6R, and no oil filter until today. (The UPS man dropped off my order from MAP about 5 minutes ago.)I'm putting it on before riding it again.

I have tried to change oil between 500 and 1000 miles (no odometer up 'till 2 years ago) and will keep the interval to 1000 with the oil filter installed.

I'm going to begin to use Bell Ray 20W50 'Thumper" oil, since it is semi synth and after handling it while changing oil in my son's CRF450 race bike, I can feel a difference. (Already using it in the BSA.)

I think Redline and Amsoil are true synthetics, maybe Royal Purple too.

I like to drain the sump and primary during each change, and make sure the sump plug and oil tank sump plate are cleaned with solvents to avoid putting grit back in the engine with the the plug and plate. I do this because the small amount of contaminents in the small amount of oil in there bothers me.

I don't ride in temps below 40 degrees F. so I use the weight reccomended by Triumph-20W50, all year long.

I think what I think means nothing to others. Use what you believe in, and change oil frequently. Never heard of anyone with an oil related engine failure who did this.

I killed a few engines myself when I was young by NOT changing oil frequently, expensive lesson learned.

Bernie


'Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience'

'72 TR6
'12 Hinckley Scrambler
'95 FLHTC Road Sofa
#107806 - 01/08/07 6:46 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Hi I run a '71 TR6R so i have to address some of the same problems as you. If you look at a primary case on a T140 there is a additional oil drain plug situated sideways on about halfway along the bottom of the case. I've had my primary modified to have this allowing much easier draining.
Regarding oil I've been using a 15/50 diesel/petrol fleet oil, I like the 15 cold grade because I think it helps the clutch to behave better cold however I'm worried about modern car oils causing clutch slip though, and may try something different. For what it's worth the jap manufacturers have an oil spec 'MA' which means an oil is suitable for bike engines with wet clutches ( inc. starter clutch) over here Morris's make a V twin oil aimed at the Harley market which is 20/50 and meets the MA spec so that's what I'm going to use next, maybe you have something similar over there?

#107807 - 01/08/07 6:57 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Hi Normski,,

What brand name is this diesal 15/50? I will look for it> Where are you? Other side of the pond? Hope it is available here.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#107808 - 01/08/07 7:12 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Hi btour , just my bigt


What d'ya mean it won't rev to 10?
1965 BSA A65D Lightning Rocket
1976 K*w*s*ki Z900.
1978 Triumph Bonn3ville (930 T160 Powered T140)
1988 H*nd* RC30
1990 Moto Guzzi California 3
1993 Y*m*h* TDM 850
#107809 - 01/08/07 8:01 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Thanks johnnyrvf,

I needed to here a testimonial for diesal oils. Can you tell me what weight? Or is that a stupid question as it only comes in 15-40. What I am concerned about is the 40 as I would like 50 for hot weather riding.

Also, thanks for the tip on mobil 15/50. I will look for it. I assume that it is mobil 1, which is I think if I recall correctly after volumes of reading a "real" from scratch synthetic.

So this would be my choice if I can find the diesal or your friend(what climate) says he used 15-40, run the diesal in real riding season, and synthetic at end of season, storage, and beginning of next, based on the assumption that syn will have not gone acid, and thus I will actually save because I will not have to throw away basically, mileage wise oil at start of new season.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#107810 - 01/08/07 8:22 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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btour Online content
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Mr. Whately,

When I put diesal in primary side, I was going by this statement on thhis forum which seemed knowledgable.

"That large breather on the primary may be a clue...

If it's breathing through the primary then you share crankcase and primary. There's nothing in the primary that needs to breathe, except pulses from the crankcase....

Those holes are tiny. Smaller than you would expect. Like 1.5mm or so. Three in a row running the length of the bike, not vertically. about 4mm apart.

If I recall correctly, and I may not because it was a while ago, on my bike (which is a 70 500) they are between the engine sprocket and clutch basket, but towards the front of the bike (where the crankcase is I guess).

'fess up - have you been running ATF in your primary for 22 years? If so, you may have inadvertently busted a myth.


The 1970 and later engines breathe through the drive side main bearing. The three small holes are for overflow from the primary back into the crankcase"

Thus no overflow not much exchange. No worry about incompatability. There is only 350 cc in there anyway, about a cup, and at least it is oil and not atf. My reasoning was really small holes, mostly pressure from engine side, no overflow, why not take a chance? Unless there was some horrible incompt. What harm. At least there is no moly in the clutch side.

Would still like the zinc for the cams, but will get that when I switch to the brand of 15/50 deisal that normski or someone else tells me about.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#107811 - 01/08/07 9:09 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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shel Online content
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15W50 Moblie 1 has an API rating of "SL" it makes my clutch slip. Castrol GTX also has an API rating of "SL" it also makes my clutch slip.
If you're looking for synthetic try Mobil 1 20W50 V-Twin motorcycle oil it has an API rating of "SG" and seems fine for wet clutches. If you don't want to spend the dosh on the mega buck oils look for something motorcycle specific or something with a low API rating.
shel


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#107812 - 01/08/07 9:52 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Riff_Raff Offline
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Whoa....btour, I haven't always agreed with RF (haven't always disagreed with him, either), but he DOES mean well, please keep that in mind.

I know nothing about the diesel oil being mentioned, but if it works, it works, no prob here.

In a cold weather state like your's, I'd be more prone to use 20W50 year 'round, in both primary & oil bag. If the summer got to be 90 degrees or better, I'd probably opt for 40W or maybe 50W for the oil bag, 20W50 for the primary. Would definitely avoid 40W or 50W for winter months as it tends to get thicker than molasses & can be hard to kick thru.

As far as the shared primary, I agree with you about the amount of exchange. My experience is that it's relatively small. The breather holes are above the majority of the primary fluid anyways, so I don't believe much of the primary fluid of choice would go into the crankcase enough to make any significant difference.


"Factory Stock Is A Suggestion Only"
#107813 - 01/08/07 10:36 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Hi Shel, thanks.

Let me see if I understand. Both mobile 1's are synthetic, correct? The 15/40 is api sl and makes your clutch slip, but the v-twin ( api sh) does not. This would indicate that mobile 1 15/40 has moly.

I do not know is there a mobile 1 which is not synthetic? From what I have read I was under the impression that fully (actual) synthetics do not have moly added as they do not need to in order to achieve the sam "slipperiness".

I had considered the mobile 1 v-twin after reading about it, but I have not found it to be readily available in discount stores. What pricing have you found on it? Not that it really matters cuz it would just be my storage infrequent use choice.

I forget do they claim to have added back the zinc to protect the cam and pushrods?

Thanks a lot for sharing your exerience.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#107814 - 01/08/07 10:52 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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Riff_Raff,

I humbly state that I am only making my sensitivity apparent. I know he means well, and he demonstrates that with his dedication to sharing his knowledge, and I really really do appreciate his help.

I was not trying to be offensive. I was just trying to make my thin skin, apparent.

I think that this is the greatest forum I have found. All of The people here are the best, and I consider it a tribute to brit bikes. It is like the knights of the round table or something. But if Lancelot INADERTANTLY steps on Gwain's big toe, should he not say, ouch?

Big smiley face!


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#107815 - 01/08/07 10:59 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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One "ouch" would have sufficed. Four "ouches" borders on offensive, but that's just my .02.

As mentioned previously, I haven't always agreed with RF.....indeed, there's a few points that he & I quite probably will never agree on. But over the course of time, I've come to recognize that he's a very well-intentioned, good, decent individual.


"Factory Stock Is A Suggestion Only"
#107816 - 01/08/07 11:46 pm Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
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RF Whatley Online content
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Quote:
Originally posted by btour:
The other thought is "people do not care how much you know, until they know how much you care."
Mr. Tour -
If I didn't care then I wouldn't be trying to help you, would I?

No one has called you "stupid" or "ignorant", instead ALL the respondents here have given you some really great advice. Great advice that you seem to have skipped right over. No malice intended I assure you sir, but IMHO your responses give the overall impression that you are getting agitated because no one is agreeing with you.

If you were paying us ski instructor prices, then we'd have weeks to coddle you along and, finally after $1000, get you going in the right direction. However, you're not paying, and I'm already raising 2 sons of my own! bigt

Example: I have a 1971 Bonnie and live in Massachusetts. What engine oil (weight, type, brand) would you recommend for winter riding?"

Then I'll say: I find 15W40 diesel oil (API rating CH-4) to be excellent winter engine and primary oil. It has the zinc package missing from car oils and does not have the "friction inhibitors" that will make your clutch slip. It is also very easy to find at reasonable prices.

Sound better?

Hope this helps! bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#107817 - 01/09/07 12:14 am Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,750
btour Online content
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btour  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,750
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Mr Whately, Thank you kindly.

Let me point out please that ski instructors do not get paid what the mountain charges, and at the pay rate we would have many months to get to 1,000.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#107818 - 01/09/07 12:34 am Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 589
Florida TR6 Offline
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Florida TR6  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 589
Florida
The site below (from a Yamaha web site) has some interesting perspectives on auto vs. motorcycle oils. A bit dated (1994), but a good read. Castrol GTX is one of five oils discussed later in the report. Again, report is a bit old, but has some interesting stuff on viscosity retention of car oils when used in motorcycles (not British twins).

web page


"For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." H.L.MENCKEN
'06 T100 Bonneville
'70 TR6 Bitsa, Pazon EI
#107819 - 01/09/07 4:15 am Re: Oil (again) need to decide now  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
RF Whatley Online content
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RF Whatley  Online Content
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
North Georgia, USA
When reading the article mentioned above, please note that the year was 1994 and API rated SG was their "modern car oil" under test... which is exactly what "motorcycle oil" is today.

The API ratings on car oils have moved on to SH, SJ, SK, SL and now SM. I suspect that the amount of metals contributing to the short life of the catalytic converter have been reduced even more than what this article relates. This especially since the EPA now requires cars to run 100,000 miles with zero repairs to their emmision systems.

Still a good read. Thanks, Tom.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
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