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Re: Con Rod Question #103145
10/11/06 8:15 am
10/11/06 8:15 am
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 716
Out There!
N
Nick Offline
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Nick  Offline
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N

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 716
Out There!
John is right, the crank, not the rods, is the weak point. I raced Ascot in the early Seventies, the heyday for Triumph. Conventional wisdom at the time was that a stock Triumph crank was good for about 3 races in a good engine before it broke at the journal. The rods? No one ever talked about them because they weren't an issue.


When people who should have known better cautioned me about the dangers of motorcycle racing, I always told them that a fear of death is nothing more than a fear of life in disguise.
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Re: Con Rod Question #103146
10/11/06 8:43 am
10/11/06 8:43 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,443
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,443
Bega NSW Australia
Sorry about my bad sentence structure Phantom 309, This is what I meant; 'Notching the cyl or the pistons a little is not complicated when done as per Phantom309's instruction.' Certainly didn't mean that way was complicated, but the oposite.


mark
Re: Con Rod Question #103147
10/11/06 9:26 am
10/11/06 9:26 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
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Tiger  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
BTW after wrecking most of an engine with a broken rod I did fit new Harris rods, my crank Guru had to tweak one straight.

Stock later 650, timing side rod let go at 4K RPM, about 1" under the small end.

But some reptile had fitted early rods, and God only knows where they came from or what they came out of.

I reckon satisfaction would be gained by dressing the "mechanic" in a fragrant pink nightie and tossing the worthless bastard in serious end of a nasty prison.

No smilies there, I really want to do it.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: Con Rod Question #103148
10/11/06 11:22 am
10/11/06 11:22 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Very interesting and very informative thread.

Keeps me awake nites though thinking about them "God only knows how miles" on stock crank and rods in my Proddie Racer T120 w/750 Routt cylinder. And not very easy ones at that eek

Can only hope that it will last through Barber. Fortunately it only has 9:5 CR pistons in it and is only modestly tuned. Keeping my fingers crossed and rpm down to 7000 max...

Re: Con Rod Question #103149
10/11/06 12:52 pm
10/11/06 12:52 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

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John Healy  Online Content

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J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
Now it is easy to comprehend damaging a rod by over reving the motor, (Panic did have a good graphic description above - but he hit the delete button again... Panic, please) but a couple of good long pulls up a grade in high gear, at a low rpm trying to accelerate, with the resultant detonation can be just as or more destructive to the piston, crank, ROD, and rod and main bearings.

A Triumph 650 @ 4,000 rpm in high gear with a 21 tooth countershaft sprocket, a bit of bad gas and accelerating up even a slight grade can leave you with a lot of expensive trophies for the shop wall. Detonation is destructive and you might not discover the damage until the next time you "wick" up the throttle.

If there is anything I have learned trying to wring the last bit out of one of these motors I learned from the ARP catalog. Measure and record the length of the rod bolts before you install them in the motor. If they vary as little as .001" in a future tear down, I throw them away.

I carry this one step farther with my STOCK aluminum rods. I measure and record the big end diameter and length center to center, if the dimensions vary I retire the rods. If they vary a lot I cut them in half.

An aluminum rod will give you one, and only one, warning before it breaks. If you choose to not to take the warning it is not the rods fault that it broke. Checking the length against another known good rod, or torquing (in my case stretch measurement) the cap onto the rod and measure the big end for roundness will give you the only warning you are going to get. If the big end is out of round .001 to .002" it is time to cut the rod in half.


Re: Con Rod Question #103150
10/11/06 1:50 pm
10/11/06 1:50 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
P
phantom309 Offline
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phantom309  Offline
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P

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
If you put that beveled washer on upside down on the ARP bolt you will most likely see it pass you by too.This happens alot but there is no way to tell after the damage is done.


Tim Joyce
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Re: Con Rod Question #103151
10/11/06 2:51 pm
10/11/06 2:51 pm
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
bzzrd2 Offline
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bzzrd2  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
Panic, of course I knew I would have to give the bob weight and have the crank balanced panic. All I said was the Carrillos were balanced from the factory. Yes this is the bike you mention. I never intended to use a Routt kit. Was MAP Alloy from the day I found them. Discussed 10 bolt as I thought it might be easier to mount the Weber. Sticking with the long rod 99 bolt as planned. When I add paint, chrome, gold plating, and mod's, yes I expect I will have 25K plus in the bike. Does no one else ever "wander" a bit during a custom build or any build for that matter? I have over the years, sometimes it pays off, sometimes not.

Panic, I'm beginning to think you don't like me. wink Why DO you keep deleting good posts??

Here is my chop in fab for those who haven't seem it. End date: hopefully March/07.
http://killerchoppers.net/forum/index.php?topic=6.0


No usable genuine parts were used in the building of my chopper. Even the cases were busted on the primary side. I respect the purist community and use after market pieces on this project wherever possible.
Re: Con Rod Question #103152
10/11/06 5:05 pm
10/11/06 5:05 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

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John Healy  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
So is this what you mean Panic (hang in there we are learning). Not having a set of Triumph Carrillo's at hand I grabed a pair of matched Vincent Carrillo rods off the shelf and threw them on the scales.

Now this was delivered as a "balanced" set:
Rod 1: .8135 kg
Rod 2 : .8350 kg

A quick check on big end weights :
Rod 1: .5665 kg
Rod 2: .5760 kg

Now Bzzz, your Carrillo's might be better, but this set certainly needs some profesional fettling.

"BIG END-LITTLE END BALANCED. The delivered rod is ready to be installed in the engine."

Hmmmmm....
Although Panic is much more book learned than I, we both seem to share a bit of sceptisim when it comes to the printed word.

All this stuff isn't magic, but it shure helps to have some experience. Panic does the math and realizes it doesn't work. I, on the other hand, put one together and blow it up. Most often we get to the same place, mine is just a bit more expensive.


Re: Con Rod Question #103153
10/11/06 5:46 pm
10/11/06 5:46 pm
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
bzzrd2 Offline
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bzzrd2  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
John
When I get past part collecting and get to engine assembly I'll report out how close the rods were. I have used Carrillos in the past but in car racing, both drag strip and roundy round. When we sent them out, I think 1 out of 10 or so sets did we have to make adjustments. (actually my boos called Carrillo and complained and had a "qualified" set sent up) We built a few winning cars in our day. I can tell you some cool tricks we did but I won't bore you with car stuff.


No usable genuine parts were used in the building of my chopper. Even the cases were busted on the primary side. I respect the purist community and use after market pieces on this project wherever possible.
Re: Con Rod Question #103154
10/11/06 7:45 pm
10/11/06 7:45 pm
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
bzzrd2 Offline
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bzzrd2  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
Well, I got a hold of Carrillo and questioned the spec's that were included with the rod and were they qualified.

The answer was:
"Those specs. are as the rods were when they left the Carrillo factory."

Take it for what it's worth.

Now, does anyone have a Nourish crank for sale? laugh


No usable genuine parts were used in the building of my chopper. Even the cases were busted on the primary side. I respect the purist community and use after market pieces on this project wherever possible.
Re: Con Rod Question #103155
10/11/06 8:16 pm
10/11/06 8:16 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Picayune, MS
Zackybilly1 Offline
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Zackybilly1  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Picayune, MS
Bzzrd,

When the day comes and if your running a stock crank, be prepared to do some "hogging" to even get in the ballpark.

I burned up a perfectly good side-grinders, two dremels, wore out two flat ba$tards and one round SOB getting mine balanced.


[Linked Image]

Z

Re: Con Rod Question #103156
10/11/06 8:26 pm
10/11/06 8:26 pm
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
bzzrd2 Offline
BritBike Forum member
bzzrd2  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
Zackybilly1

I think I'll farm it out. May be nice to find a Nourish crank as John suggests. How did your build work out using the Carrilo's? Any more vib than usual?


No usable genuine parts were used in the building of my chopper. Even the cases were busted on the primary side. I respect the purist community and use after market pieces on this project wherever possible.
Re: Con Rod Question #103157
10/11/06 8:32 pm
10/11/06 8:32 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Picayune, MS
Zackybilly1 Offline
BritBike Forum member
Zackybilly1  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Picayune, MS
On the crank, Dave Nourish would be a good place to start. From what I gather (not chieseled in stone), they are built to order but with a March 07 completion date on your bike, that wouldn't be a bad deal. John Healy (and rightly so) may get a better price than you or I, but when I heard about the "build to order", I, also, remember hearing $1700+. After looking at a couple of examples, I wouldn't build one for less than that nor would I have benefit of his propriortary material/heat treatment which is a black art of its own. The only ones I've personally seen are for short rod engines.

What are you running on the top end?

Z

Re: Con Rod Question #103158
10/11/06 9:18 pm
10/11/06 9:18 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Picayune, MS
Zackybilly1 Offline
BritBike Forum member
Zackybilly1  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Picayune, MS
No difference detected, IMO. I pulled down a fairly fresh rebuild when the rods where installed, many other changes were made at the same time (all new bearing/bushings, different cams, valves, guides, springs, tappets, big-bore 9.5:1, head-work, asian carbs, different pipes, alternator, belt-drive with dry clutch & alloy pressure plate, 4-valve oil pump and different gearing). I started with a lighter ('67) stock crank and further lightened it besides the hogging for the balancing. I had the crank counter-balance mag particled with no problems found. I've made some 600+ mile days on it with no more pain at the end of the day than riding a modern touring bike. I went with the carrillos as Map kept back ordering me on their rods. In hind-sight, I'm glad it worked out that way as I know very little about how Map makes theirs and they don't have the rod reputation that Carrillo does. You'll need a set of micrometers when torquing the BE of your rods to measure bolt stretch, as well.

I've got close to 20k miles on this build and its as reliable as any bike I have. I'm not afraid to ride it anywhere and have been known to do so on occation. A motorcycle trailer is something you pull behind a motorcycle.

Z

Re: Con Rod Question #103159
10/11/06 9:33 pm
10/11/06 9:33 pm
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
bzzrd2 Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 194
Trenton, ON
Sound nice Zackybilly1 ! Hope mine works out as well. Rather than me going through it all again have a look at the link below for my build details. (STCWON) wink
http://killerchoppers.net/forum/index.php?topic=6.0


No usable genuine parts were used in the building of my chopper. Even the cases were busted on the primary side. I respect the purist community and use after market pieces on this project wherever possible.
Re: Con Rod Question #103160
10/11/06 9:52 pm
10/11/06 9:52 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,406
New Zealand
J
johnm Offline
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johnm  Offline
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J

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,406
New Zealand
I had Dave Nourish make a crank for my Norton 500 Dominator (standard bore and stroke) about 4 years ago. It was made with larger diameter big end journals and I used rods that he was supplying at the time. It now sounds from the above postings he is going with Carrillo rods which is fine.

Dave did build to order and the delivery time is very dependant on work load and surface treatment because he waits until he has several to treat at once. Mine took a good three months.

They are a beautiful piece of work and he was good to deal with.

One issue was balance factor. I did a lot of reading and talked to Nourish, Hemmings and Emery telling them the engine and frame details and intended purpose. There was a range of views but the concensus was for a lower number about 64% wet. I ran it for a year but had pretty fierce vibration in the 5500 to 7200 range used for racing. So then I asked them all again telling them my experience and beleive it or not they all said "No thats too low it should be in the low 80% !" So I had it dynamically rebalance in NZ at 82% and it is much better. When you are racing you do not notice the vibration at all. I didnt bother to ask them about the different advise - (for some reason some experts dont like it be asked why)-

(funny thing that - in my job I work with guys from all over the world with degrees in geology, physics, maths and enginering plus years of experince -we have questions, arguements, debates back and forth all the time with wide differences of opinion and no one worries much - but ask some people to explain about bikes and you'd think you had questioned their whole personal worth - must be my style - spent too much time in Continental Europe and North Sea oil rigs where when they question something they hit you fair between the eyes so you dont miss it) laughing

But anyway if you really have lots of time and money then you could really do something interesting. Why not try a 76 deg or 90 deg crank. My crank is the normal 360 but if I was starting again I would seriously consider a 90 deg.

Re: Con Rod Question #103161
10/11/06 10:41 pm
10/11/06 10:41 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
Zak: The next time use a bit of Mallory metal (2 1/3 times heaver than steel) on the wide part of each pork chop and it would have made the job easier.

If you want to read Panic's full discussion about balancing read:

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/crank-bal-c.htm


Re: Con Rod Question #103162
10/12/06 2:49 am
10/12/06 2:49 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Picayune, MS
Zackybilly1 Offline
BritBike Forum member
Zackybilly1  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Picayune, MS
John, that Panic is, undoubtably, a wealth of knowledge, however, I went to the link and he had deleted it...just kidding. I was tempted to implant tungsten slugs at strategic points but was shooting for an over-all lighter crank...for reasons that escape me at the moment. With the addition of a stock '69 T120 to the herd, the heavier crank was evident and I like some of the qualities it has. The lighter crank is smooth though and it doesn't tend to "carry on" when you roll off the throttle going into a corner. I'm not sure how much flywheel effect a primary drive, chainwheel and steel-based clutch plates contributes to the crank but I must have removed 10+ lbs in this department, as well. A fun build, none the less and no regrets. Prepping to give the same treatment to a Norton but may go for the heavier flywheel approach this time...for reasons that escape me at the moment.

JohnM,
Do you still work in the oilfield and who did you work with in the North Sea? I design and build specialty packers (greek to most people)and other specialty down-hole tools. A large percentage of this equipment is run in the North Sea (BP, Talisman, Total Fina Elf)primarily of 13Cr & 17-4PH. I try to focus on equipment that the major companies don't have in effort to fill in the gaps in the market as I couldn't nor would want to compete with them on the plain vanilla stuff, anyway. I'm building an equipment package, at the present, for a customer in Australia through Weatherford and as I understand it, there alot of activity about to kick off in that area. What area is your background in?...just curious.

Regards,

Z

Re: Con Rod Question #103163
10/12/06 3:51 am
10/12/06 3:51 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
P
phantom309 Offline
BritBike Forum member
phantom309  Offline
BritBike Forum member
P

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
can't say I agree with the belt drives brake cranks thing.Tight belts and tight chains might help break cranks.I have a small journal and so does tom and belt drives .Mine must be 5 years of hard racing.Yes it will break in time just like my 500 one did. frown Can we get a 500 with larger journals?that is my next project ,love that little bike.


Tim Joyce
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Glass from the past
Re: Con Rod Question #103164
10/12/06 4:32 am
10/12/06 4:32 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,406
New Zealand
J
johnm Offline
BritBike Forum member
johnm  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,406
New Zealand
Hi Zackybilly1,

I confess I dont actually know the weight of my Nourish crank but if pushed would guess it is a little heavier than standard. This does help a 100 kg 53 year old get off the line. Chain clutch and sprocket weight has gone down on my Dommie as well.

Yes I still work in the oil (gas) field. It has suddenly become fashionable again with higher prices and everyone has jobs unlike the 90s. I work in exploration in NZ for a European operator. In the early 80s I worked as a wellsite petroleum engineer on Shell Esso platforms in the UK sector Brent area. - back then I measured a few packers before running them in the hole but definitely not my specialty. 13Cr high CO2 ? I guess you are probably doing down hole jewelry for the Australia NW gas LNG projects - almost everyone I know works in Perth these days.
cheers
John

Re: Con Rod Question #103165
10/12/06 8:14 am
10/12/06 8:14 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,443
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mark Parker  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,443
Bega NSW Australia
If people are contemplating building twin motors with expensive cranks, I'd recommend the 90deg configuration. Its only cams, and ignition, both of which are available, to complete the conversion. I would speculate that possibly the alteration in dynamic load may overcome the Triumph shafts weakness, a std A65 shaft can easily be cut and bolted up at 90 deg and occasionally(at least) run to 9,000 quite successfully. The Triumph shaft looks similar and if it can be done the same way may overcome the tendancy to break. Makes them sound nice as well.


mark
Re: Con Rod Question #103166
10/12/06 12:07 pm
10/12/06 12:07 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
"can't say I agree with the belt drives brake cranks thing."

Fair enough Tim, but it was Dave's comment, not mine. A comment he made to me when one of his cranks broke at Daytona (Deland).


Re: Con Rod Question #103167
10/12/06 1:16 pm
10/12/06 1:16 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
P
phantom309 Offline
BritBike Forum member
phantom309  Offline
BritBike Forum member
P

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
Then we have the case problem.On the 500 put in the nourish crank and split the cases horizonal.Ended up welding in more aluminum around drive side and then had to remachine somethings.


Tim Joyce
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Works shocks
Glass from the past
Re: Con Rod Question #103168
10/12/06 3:22 pm
10/12/06 3:22 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,709
Virginia, USA
SBoyd Offline
BritBike Forum member
SBoyd  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,709
Virginia, USA
[Linked Image]

I saved this crank from a motor built by Larry Palmgren in 1971. It was originally a 1968 T120R engine. It was raced at the Junior level (AMA Flattrack)for two years back then. When I acquired it in 1994, we raced it for 3 years in AHRMA and other vintage races (Trackmaster frame).
It had a Routt kit, head work, Sifton cams etc. and made 60 RWHP.
The failure mode was a split at the bottom of the Routt cylinder.
Crank and stock rods were still OK. Apparently, polishing the crank, (don't know exactly how he did it) extends it's life by reducing the chance of a crack starting.

>>sb


Stop the insanity.
Re: Con Rod Question #103169
10/12/06 3:34 pm
10/12/06 3:34 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,383
Magnolia, TX
htown Online content
BritBike Forum member
htown  Online Content
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,383
Magnolia, TX
Good to see some other oil patch Brit-bikers. I'm a geologist working doing exploration in Houston.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
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