BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
  JWood Auction  
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Photo posting tutorial

Member Spotlight
Goostrey
Goostrey
San Antonio, TX
Posts: 21
Joined: July 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
203 registered members (57nortonmodel77), 1,622 guests, and 587 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Doug Baril, revans, Gilly, XTINCT, Bruce Roberts
9960 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
btour 184
koan58 99
Stuart 85
NickL 70
Popular Topics(Views)
439,657 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums33
Topics65,299
Posts632,336
Members9,960
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#100016 - 09/04/06 1:52 am Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
J. Charles Smith Offline
BritBike Forum member
J. Charles Smith  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
Westminster, MD, USA
I'll ask this of the cafe racer board also. I have been collecting parts for 20 years and am ready to start building cafe racer around '73 T140 engine. I have an old Trackmaster frame (built-up oil tank in top tube, narrow - 1-1/2" dia.? - backbone). I have another old racing frame (Lyster), but my (Lyta?) tank and GB500 seat fit Trackmaster perfectly, so I'm leaning towards using it. Does anyone know how old Trackmasters work on asphalt? With clip-ons?

Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!
Membership Type! Free
Member
Premium
Member
Premium Life
Member
Vendor
Member
Site
Sponsor
Recognition No Premium Member Premium Life member (5 years) Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
Post commercial threads No No No Yes Yes
Custom title No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Upload avatar & photos No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Link avatar & photos Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Private Message Storage: 10 100 100 100 100
Length of signatures 255 600 600 600 600
Removes this very advert island between post 1&2 No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Price Free $12.90/year $105.00 No End
$55.00/5 years
$210.00/year
($17.50/month)
Email
Click on button >>
  Premium Member Premium Life member Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
#100017 - 09/04/06 3:06 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
SBoyd Offline
BritBike Forum member
SBoyd  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
The problem with a Trackmaster frame for the street is that it is too light and too small for enjoyable street or cafe use.
Having raced those bikes on dirt tracks, I have to say that they are the ultimate vintage frame for dirt.
Some time ago, I built a street-tracker from a Trackmaster and a 650 engine. The bike looked great, but was only good for an occaisional show-off ride......too much vibration and the short wheelbase and steep head-angle make for great wheelies but not a good street ride.

On the other hand, some AHRMA racers make good use of the Trackmaster on road courses.....but that doesn't mean they have the basis for a good cafe bike.
IMO the best Triumph frame for real cafe riding is the T140 OIF. I guess the purists would choose a Norton frame.
>>sb


Stop the insanity.
#100018 - 09/04/06 3:24 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
J. Charles Smith Offline
BritBike Forum member
J. Charles Smith  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
Westminster, MD, USA
This cafe bike will be ridden, but not for long distances or many total miles. So I expect vibration to be worse than a standard Triumph (tho I may go for 90-degree crank), but not a project killer. The rake is another problem, tho. I have 35mm roadrace Cerianis, but I'm wondering if they are long enough for street use. A 21-degree rake is not very appealing!

#100019 - 09/04/06 3:26 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 86
1973tr5t Offline
BritBike Forum
1973tr5t  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 86
North Dakota U.S.A.
Sboyd,
I have no idea one way or another, so don't think I am challanging your recomendation. I am just trying to learn. I was just wondering what made the T140 OIF your choice for this application.

#100020 - 09/04/06 3:49 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 153
gcooperlll Offline
BritBike Forum member
gcooperlll  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 153
Panama City Florida
Most Triumph frames made by trackmaster had a 25 degree head angle - their TT frame had a 27. The frame will perform well on the street - maybe a little head shaking at high speeds. The issue with using the dirt track frame on the street is frame cracking - it is not built to handle the torque of the motor with the rear tire hooking up. Been there, done it, will do it again. Talk with Dink at D&D in pensacola - he'll tell you how to properly gusset the frame. vr Cooper


Cooper
#100021 - 09/05/06 2:21 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
SBoyd Offline
BritBike Forum member
SBoyd  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
"The rake is another problem, tho. I have 35mm roadrace Cerianis, but I'm wondering if they are long enough for street use. A 21-degree rake is not very appealing!" J. Smith

You won't wind up with a 21 degree rake. I ran mine with approx 26 degree with Ceriani road race forks. They are beautiful forks for that frame. You get to adjust the rake quite a bit with the rear shock length and the fork position in the triple clamps. If it seems twitchy, you can add a steering damper. I used one for flat track.

"I have no idea one way or another, so don't think I am challanging your recomendation. I am just trying to learn. I was just wondering what made the T140 OIF your choice for this application." 1973TR5T

The reason I choose it is that the T140 frames do a great job of controling vibration. Also, the T140 inspires confidence in my riding and I can definitely go faster and more relaxed than on a Trackmaster (on the street). Also, with the Trackmaster you will have to fabricate everything such as sidestand, centerstand, various brackets, footrests, rearsets, rear fender loop, engine plates etc. Once you start adding all the street stuff, the Trackmaster loses some of its beauty.
>>sb
PS I'm trying to post a link

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k65/ducboy99/

This should show pictures of the last Trackmaster I built. Click on to enlarge. It has your road-race forks and I think in a couple of them you can see the steering damper I used. I built it for a friend, George Richtmeyer, who won a couple of AHRMA championships with it. When HE rode the bike, he didn't want the damper, I put it on for when I raced it.
>>sb


Stop the insanity.
#100022 - 09/05/06 2:45 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
J. Charles Smith Offline
BritBike Forum member
J. Charles Smith  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
Westminster, MD, USA
My question about the Trackmaster frame on the street was my first-ever on Britbike.com, and I REALLY appreciate the feedback I'm getting. sBoyd, you make some excellent points about the hassles involved. But since I already have this frame and quite a few of the ancillary pieces (like the forks), and I'm not really expecting to ride this bike much (my old back tends to rebel against clipons after just a short ride), I think I will go ahead with the project. I feel confident that, with the experience of you folks in the forum (thank you, Mr. Cooper, for the Dink/D&D connection), I should be able to surmount most of the difficulties. Incidentally, the frame was apparently on the street before, since it already has a sidestand tab welded on.

#100023 - 09/05/06 5:15 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 714
Nick Offline
BritBike Forum member
Nick  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 714
Out There!
You'll almost certainly enjoy an improved ride quality (and be able to ride and control the bike much better) with dirt track bars rather than cafe-type clip-ons or straight bars. Clip ons only look cool until a car pulls out in front of you and you have to throw the bike sideways but can't because you've got no leverage on the bars. And they only feel cool when you're a kid with a nice flexible spine. (IMHO, of course.)

I raced both Trackmasters and Champions in the Seventies and rode the Champion on the street for a while. I think that either chassis will make a great street bike. If you're worried about vibes, go to a 90 crank or get the stock crank dynamically balanced. Then fit lower compression pistons--makes for easier starting, less vibes and better manners -- and tall gearing.

As far as the steering head angle is concerned, you can offset-bore the triple clamps (or make new ones) to give the front end a bit more rake and slow the steering down.

Sounds like you have the makings of a neat bike--have fun!


When people who should have known better cautioned me about the dangers of motorcycle racing, I always told them that a fear of death is nothing more than a fear of life in disguise.
#100024 - 09/05/06 5:29 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 714
Nick Offline
BritBike Forum member
Nick  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 714
Out There!
About the vibes/frame cracking: I've never heard of this problem. But as long as you've got everything in bits, you should mount the engine cases in the frame, then bore/ream all the engine mounting holes slightly oversize to make sure that the engine mounting plate holes and the engine case holes are the same diameter. Then fit high-quality bolts that are a nice snug fit in both the cases and the frame.
Also, the Trackmaster has no top engine mount. Again, adding one might reduce vibes. If you do add one, use a heim joint that will permit the engine to "grow" vertically while running, without allowing front to rear movement of the engne.
Walt Mahoney, the owner of Trackmaster back in the Seventies told me that he left the top motor mounts off because the engines put out more power that way. In other words, the engines were allowed to "grow" or flex as they heated up.

To test this, I removed the Yamaha 750 engine from my Champion (with top motor mount) and installed it unchanged in my Trackmaster (no top motor mount) and it put out noticeably more power. It did in fact vibrate more, but it ran like stink!

It would be an interesting experiment to use high-speed cameras or other measuring equipment to determine engine movement during a race.


When people who should have known better cautioned me about the dangers of motorcycle racing, I always told them that a fear of death is nothing more than a fear of life in disguise.
#100025 - 09/05/06 2:12 pm Re: Trackmaster frame for street  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


I suspect the extra power is due to reduced fuel frothing in either the tank or bowl, which is sometimes worse when the head is tied down. Gordon Jennings reported 30 years ago curing mysterious lean-out problems on professional race bikes by attaching the carbs using hose (rather than rigidly), and suggested that he only saw the ones who complained (or lost a motor), and that he was sure that many more with mild symptoms went un-corrected. In some cases the position of the mount (head or frame) is a "buzzy" place. If you're stuck with the mount position, the vibration can sometimes be reduced with a heavier brace, larger diameter bolt, or tying 2 mounts together, etc. More work than appears is put into the placement of the factory mounts.

#100026 - 09/05/06 2:19 pm Re: Trackmaster frame for street  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Other than weight (and a few unsightly bits you can remove) the OIF is a good frame, the big tube adds a great deal of stiffness which is generally under-estimated as to necessity for pavement.
Another easy method of increasing stability is to look for a moto-X tree set with the same tube diameter and removeable stem but with low stem offset, which moves the axle backward and increases trail without changing the rake angle. You get slightly less than the difference in offsets as the trail increase.

#100027 - 09/05/06 8:04 pm Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
J. Charles Smith Offline
BritBike Forum member
J. Charles Smith  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
Westminster, MD, USA
I received an email reply from Dink at D&D in Pensacola. They set up a Trackmaster for roadracing a few years back and found it "wound up" too much, creating instability out of corners. Of course, this was with racing tires and pushing it harder than possible (for me, anyway) on the street. He recommends welding cross braces near the bottom front motormounts and fitting an extended swingarm pivot bolt thru the side plates.

Nick, I agree wide bars give more leverage. However, tens of thousands of sportbikers ride with clipons, and I've never felt the desire (or felt I had the ability) to countersteer any harder or more abruptly that clipons allow - especially on a bike as light and nimble as this one should be. Besides, a cafe-style bike almost demands clipons, and I've had my alloy Maguras for decades without ever mounting them up!

Panic, I have both Ceriani roadrace and MX triple trees - the MX ones are wider - but as I recall, the offsets are pretty much the same. I think I will add rake by running slightly short rear shocks, and consider modified triple trees if the bike is still too squirrely. Besides, a hydraulic steering damper was always in the plans.

This frame has a cobbled up top engine mount, which I intend to use. I will take your heim-joint recommendation to heart, Nick. I can't imagine any other reason besides fuel frothing that would explain the top mount/hp connection. Flexible hose carb mounts sound like the way to go, tho I don't like the way they flo!

#100028 - 09/05/06 8:51 pm Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
SBoyd Offline
BritBike Forum member
SBoyd  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,708
Virginia, USA
I removed the Yamaha 750 engine from my Champion (with top motor mount) and installed it unchanged in my Trackmaster (no top motor mount) and it put out noticeably more power.

Yeah, ok...... I did have trouble with this concept.

The first thing that came to mind was maybe the superior handling of the Trackmaster enabled one to go in harder and get on the gas sooner.

BUT, I also understand that if you clearly have more power, you will be aware of it.
The Gordon Jennings frothing explanation is the one I like. I can live with that.
Thanks Nick and thanks Panic.
>>sb


Stop the insanity.
#100029 - 09/05/06 9:31 pm Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,694
trumpetloon Offline
BritBike Forum member
trumpetloon  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,694
georgia
I'll share a close held tuning secret with the board. The triple clamps from mid '70s Can Am dirt bikes are adjustable for head angle via replaceable cast bearing holders in differing angles. I am uncertain how many options were available initially, but I have seen at least 3 different holders, varied by one degree each. I have a set of these on my TR5T, and they work beautifully. A friend machined the holders to directly replace the head bearings and the bike steers smooth as glass. There is a guy in Texas(???) who specializes in NOS Can Am parts (Google Can Am parts... top of list). All needle bearings and at 35mm, your Cerianis will slot right in. A sure cure for head shake! Worth the effort to modify and fit. laugh


1974 TR5T
#100030 - 09/05/06 10:02 pm Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
dave - NV Offline
BritBike Forum member
dave - NV  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,852
Elko, Nevada USA
The folks at BSA and US tuners building race bikes proved on the dyno that using a head steady on a DBD Gold Star lost you ~ 1.5 hp. The West Coast BSA importer, Hap Alzina was certain enough about it to send out a bulletin in the early '60s to the dealers to advise the racers. I and many others read it.
The reason given was cylinder distortion under load was increased with a top steady bracket attached to the head.
BTW the later model GS Clubmans didn't have a head steady bracket installed at the factory. However many of us use a top head steady on our road Goldies as it seems to reduce the 'throbs' a bit, making a smooth running bike even smoother.

I'll sure not argue the effect of a head steady on any other model bike...


dave - NV
#100031 - 09/05/06 10:20 pm Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,835
Mike Baker Online content
BritBike Forum member
Mike Baker  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,835
Asheville, NC
Always heard head steadys were to keep the cylinder from breaking off at the base under hard use. Fact or fiction? I'd think that trackmaster drivers would be leaving parts all over the track if so. eek

#100032 - 09/05/06 11:56 pm Re: Trackmaster frame for street  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes, I can see how attaching only part of the barrel to the frame would stretch the bore out of round. Any attempts to re-position the mount (i.e., enlarge the holes eccentrically, use oversize bolts) on a hot engine to see if it improves?

#100033 - 09/06/06 1:32 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,396
johnm Offline
BritBike Forum member
johnm  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,396
New Zealand
I also agree with the carb vibration causing lean out problems.

I have twin AMAL Mk1s mounted on long flexible mounted inlet tracts. Whilst dyno testing we noted fierce vibration of the carbs at certain narrow rpm ranges. Foolishly I noted this but failed to do anything about it.

Later I experienced misfiring at full throttle at the end of straights of more than 0.5 km lenght. Adding simple cable tie tension to the carb was enough to cure the vibration and eliminate the misfire.

Flexible mounting the carbs may not be enough and in fact can exacerbate the problem. Holding the carbs in slight tension with ties seemed to work on my bike

#100034 - 09/06/06 3:31 am Re: Trackmaster frame for street  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


IIRC surgical tubing to tie the body to something close was used?
For the Dell'Orto, some SU etc. with divorced bowls remember that both the body and bowl need to be suspended for best effect.

#100035 - 09/25/06 3:35 pm Re: Trackmaster frame for street  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
J. Charles Smith Offline
BritBike Forum member
J. Charles Smith  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,082
Westminster, MD, USA
When I bought my very used Trackmaster frame about 14 years ago, I gave the original frame from my 1973 T140 to a friend. (He was roadracing a TR5-framed Daytona 500 at the time, and was considering building a 750 roadracer.) Well, he just stuck the frame in his attic, so this weekend I asked if I could have it back. (Thanks for not charging me storage fees, Bob!) Anyway, I just weighed the two bare frames (me standing on digital bathroom scale holding frames, then subtracting out my weight), and thought you all might be interested. The Triumph frame weighed 36.5lb; 42.5 w/swingarm. The early-model Trackmaster weighed 27lb, and 35lb with swingarm. Considering all the hassles with having to repair and brace the Trackmaster (adding a couple of more pounds), I think I'm just gonna use the stock frame for my cafe project. Besides, selling the Trackmaster could fund a few more trick bits.


Moderated by  John Healy 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.183s Queries: 14 (0.013s) Memory: 0.9424 MB (Peak: 1.2317 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2017-11-24 11:12:03 UTC