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Kill switch for Wassell ignition- Stuart'll know! #713233
10/30/17 6:08 pm
10/30/17 6:08 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,549
scotland
triton thrasher Offline OP
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triton thrasher  Offline OP
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scotland
The Wassell/Vape appears to work (and work well), something like analogue Boyer. It's wired according to this lower diagram:

[Linked Image]

Do you think a kill switch would work if it earths (sorry!) one of the trigger wires to the common -ve return when the button is pushed? That is, shorting the black/yellow or the black/white wire to the handlebar.

That would be handy, because I could use the kill button that I used with the magneto.

Thanks.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
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Re: Kill switch for Wassell ignition- Stuart'll know! [Re: triton thrasher] #713278
10/31/17 12:21 am
10/31/17 12:21 am
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,689
Pacific northwest
Q
quinten Offline
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quinten  Offline
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Q
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Pacific northwest
Quote
Do you think a kill switch would work if it earths (sorry!) one of the trigger wires to the common -ve return when the button is pushed? That is, shorting the black/yellow or the black/white wire to the handlebar.


it should.
... if it's anything like its predecessors, Boyer/pazon
where
an interruption of the trigger signal ( a tiny Independence alternator )
of a sufficient time interval
shuts down the Control Box.
that said. ... you are complicating the delivery of the trigger signal by adding a kill switch and wiring.
the additional 'interruption circuit ' can potentially add interference


which is why Boyer , when I asked about stator-trigger shorting/shunting
recommended adding any kill switch. ..in series with the main power supply to the Box , as a cleaner kill
... you be the judge.


should any problems develop using a ( trigger-stator ) kill.
simply eliminate this circuit path during the first phase of any troubleshooting.

you could always ask Wassell Vape.

Re: Kill switch for Wassell ignition- Stuart'll know! [Re: triton thrasher] #713310
10/31/17 6:38 am
10/31/17 6:38 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,549
scotland
triton thrasher Offline OP
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triton thrasher  Offline OP
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scotland
I'm disinclined to put anything extra into the power supply. I reckon a push button to earth is less likely to develop a mind of its own than something interrupting a circuit. I'll try it and see. I'm no racer, but one of the racers' good ideas is a readily-reachable engine stopper.

As for light/dark sides of bike ignition, the magneto is about 8 years and a few thousand miles down the line from a Tony Cooper rebuild and it was packing in, through one of those classic magneto scenarios where you can't tell that it's an ignition problem. It was like 8-stroking, but only once warm and only at about 2,500 rpm and only at about 1/4 throttle, but it was getting worse and pervading into a greater throttle and rev range.

I only made certain it was a mag problem by jury-rigging an external coil and condenser through the magneto points. I have a suspicion there was HT tracking through flaws in the slip ring, but who knows?

All that was in addition to difficulty with shoddy points sets. The pivot post wouldn't stay tight in the steel base plate. I'll try fixing the mag myself, but I don't know when I'll fit it, as the Wassell system is working well. It now makes me think my chronic idling problems were down to the magneto as well.

I tried Boyer Micro Power crank triggered ignition a few years ago and that was a fraught experience!

Thanks for the help and advice, chaps.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Kill switch for Wassell ignition- Stuart'll know! [Re: triton thrasher] #713321
10/31/17 8:27 am
10/31/17 8:27 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,177
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Scotland
Hi TT,

Thanks for the confidence.

Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Do you think a kill switch would work if it earths (sorry!) one of the trigger wires to the common -ve return when the button is pushed?

I wouldn't - wires between trigger unit and "Transistor Box" carry low Volts and Amps induced by the not-very-powerful magnets in the trigger plate, but that are interpreted for timing purposes by the electronics in the Transistor Box,

"something ... in the power supply" (or actually in the return on a negative-earth bike) is how millions and millions of bikes do it - hundreds of thousands (?) of Britbikes with e.i. and millions of bikes made in other countries. I've had one T160 with Lucas Rita since 1978, always fed through standard Lucas handlebar kill switches, the same '81-on switch since 1983; another that came with Lucas Rita also fed through another '81-on handlebar kill switch since 1983; a T100 with B-B Mark 3; a T150 with the pre-'71 stand-alone push-button; several bikes from other countries with a switch on the handlebars that simply breaks the ignition circuit. All without a problem.

While I appreciate it isn't directly comparable to what you're thinking of, the one type of switch that has given me (and thousands of other owners of late 1970's/early 1980's Hondas) regular problems is the 'earthing' kill switch Honda thought its early implementations of electronic ignition required. At one time, when they were cheap, I considered the right-hand switch cluster a consumable spare - kept a new one in the spares box, when the one on the bike went wrong, I fitted the one in the spares box, threw the old one away and ordered a new one for the spares box.

I appreciate others' experience of standard Lucas DC kill switches isn't as good as mine but, ime, that's individual switches, not the soundness of the principle. Otoh, it's the principle of any switch in an e.i. trigger wire that's unsound imho.

Originally Posted by triton thrasher
The Wassell/Vape appears to work (and work well), something like analogue Boyer.

Not sure of the current relationship, but the first edition of Wassell's e.i. was a licensed copy of the B-B Mk.3, made by Vape, not long after Bransden introduced the Mk.4.

Like Quinten, anytime I've asked about kill switches - Bransden or John Carpenter at Mistral Engineering, they've always recommended one in the circuit between battery and Transistor Box/amplifier, and against one in either of the trigger unit wires.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Kill switch for Wassell ignition- Stuart'll know! [Re: triton thrasher] #713407
10/31/17 8:13 pm
10/31/17 8:13 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,549
scotland
triton thrasher Offline OP
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triton thrasher  Offline OP
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Posts: 7,549
scotland
Thanks- plenty to chew on there.

They've started putting salt on the road here, so there's no hurry now to fix it.

The ignition is wired like a Boyer Mk III (I think) and it keeps on advancing to 5,000 rpm, maybe more.

The rotor carries magnets. Does the Boyer setup have magnets in the rotor or are they in the pickup coils?

The Wassell appeared to work normally, as the bike idled and the battery collapsed down to a low voltage: around 10 V. It's a cliché fitting EI then buying a new battery!


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Kill switch for Wassell ignition- Stuart'll know! [Re: triton thrasher] #713429
11/01/17 12:19 am
11/01/17 12:19 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,071
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Boyer has 2 magnets on the rotor, Pick up coils are on the movable stator plate.
I am with Stuart on the kill switch, earthing is not such a great thing for EI. When I rewired a while ago, I contemplated feeding the EI through a relay, but the load is so low the 71 switchgear handles it OK.
Same here with the salt, nichts are drawing in, bike coming in for Winter.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Kill switch for Wassell ignition- Stuart'll know! [Re: triton thrasher] #713838
11/04/17 4:22 pm
11/04/17 4:22 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,549
scotland
triton thrasher Offline OP
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triton thrasher  Offline OP
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scotland
You won't be surprised to hear I followed the opposite of your advice and wired the shorter-outer button to a trigger lead.

Seems to work ok.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Kill switch for Wassell ignition- Stuart'll know! [Re: triton thrasher] #713879
11/05/17 12:18 am
11/05/17 12:18 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,177
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Scotland
facepalm
crazy
sick
help

cool

Re: Kill switch for Wassell ignition- Stuart'll know! [Re: triton thrasher] #713906
11/05/17 9:49 am
11/05/17 9:49 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,549
scotland
triton thrasher Offline OP
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triton thrasher  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,549
scotland
The bike's wiring is a legacy of the magneto system. The key switch just isolates the battery. If revs are up, switching off the key doesn't stop the ignition.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.

Moderated by  Alan_nc 


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