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#712912 - 10/27/17 4:51 pm Trouble starting new big bore  
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Nick H Online content
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MA
I bought this '67 chopped Bonneville in Spring. AMAL concentrics and Boyer ignition. The seller told me how to start it with three key off primer kicks and that worked for a while. A very short while and I put only a couple miles on it but it did run. I've had trouble starting all summer and have been fiddling with timing and carburation. I recently checked compression and it's only 90 lbs both cylinders. Could this be due to the new big bore 750 jugs and piston? Can I expect compression to go up when I finally get it started and break it in some? Also, I find it a bit hard to kick, as if it has higher compression than it does. Could also the new rings, etc be causing extra friction? I have been able to get it to run for short periods of maybe 20 seconds or more so I think my static timing may be close enough and assume it must be carburation but could it be due to the low compression? I've gone through the carbs and replaced parts. Pilot jet is clear, float level is set. Valves have been checked out as ok. As I say, it did run when I first got it. I took an endoscopic photo of inside of a cylinder. I enjoy wrenching but like to get a good result! I've missed the whole season of riding.
[Linked Image]


Nicholas H
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#712914 - 10/27/17 5:24 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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kommando Online content
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Quote
I recently checked compression and it's only 90 lbs both cylinders.

So a single kick or a series of kicks, throttle open or shut, engine warm or cold.

A new engine will be down on compression and running it for short periods with no load runs the risk of glazing the bores and the rings never will seat properly.

You need to not start it again until you are prepared to do a decent run with short periods of goods handful of revs going up an incline, this will give a good pressure on the inside of the rings and force them out into the bores so they wear away on the X hatching and bed in.

#712918 - 10/27/17 5:58 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: kommando]  
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quinten Online content
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did you buy this newly rebuilt and never started ?
or only test started ?

and about how many 'total' miles or hours are on the engine now ?
like a kommando said, once started the bike should be ridden
in a reasonable fashion at various RPMs.
excessive idling in the shop is not a good break -In procedure.

if still in break-in mode , what oil are you using?



then
before you start changing too many carburetor settings
the Boyer will only work reliably if it sees sufficient power

how have you assessed that the Boyer is getting the power it needs ?
does the bike have a battery ?
iS the battery holding a charge. ?
is sufficient battery voltage making it to the Boyer through a big enough wire
and switch connections to still supply
at least five Watts to the Boyer box ?



.

#712942 - 10/27/17 9:19 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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I'm sad to say that your pic shows evidence of a lot of honing grit still in the bore, so it may be lucky that it won't start. A lot of scratching has already started, but if you take the topend off, scrub it clean, and flush the cases, you'll likely be ok. Run it with that stuff in there, no comment.
Static timing of Boyer is usually a long way from the eventual strobe position, I've mostly found it to be way retarded, but you can experiment with small movements of the plate till it starts.
But please get the grit out first!
Dave

#712944 - 10/27/17 9:36 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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I was told the bike had under 100 miles on the build. I haven't been idling it in the garage. Trust me when I get it running I'll be on the road revving it all over the range. Oil I'm using is Pennzoil 20-50. 12 volt new battery all charged up. Spark is not the issue.
I got compression to 110 lbs with a bit of oil in the cylinder. Open throttle, 5 or 6 kicks and it maxxed out.
Does anyone else want to confirm or refute what koan58 is saying about honing grit and scratching?? The "scratches" are diagonal to the piston movement . All I see from my blurred photo is the crosshatching that I thought was there to work against the rings to get a tight seal on break in. But I'm no expert by any means.
And again, I can get it to start for 20-30 seconds at best and then it stalls. Checked again that pilot jet is clear with a piece of .016 wire.

Last edited by Nick H; 10/27/17 10:10 pm.

Nicholas H
#712947 - 10/27/17 10:30 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Tigernuts Online content
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I an see quite a lot of vertical scratches as well as the honing marks. That's what Koan's talking about I reckon.


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
#712964 - 10/28/17 3:36 am Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Excalibur Offline
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90psi is too low. I suspect you'll be stripping the top end. Then at least you'll be able to check the rebuild work. How about putting up some pics/video, otherwise there's not enough to go on. Help us help you.

#712970 - 10/28/17 6:59 am Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Excalibur]  
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quinten Online content
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Quote
Does anyone else want to confirm or refute what koan58 is saying about honing grit and scratching? All I see from my blurred photo is the crosshatching that I thought was there to work against the rings to get a tight seal on break in. But I'm no expert by any means.

at first glance, i didn't look very closely because the pic as its rather dark.
but Koan's comment made me take a second look.

I think
he's right, the verticial scoring lines look horrible.
theyre either from left over hone grit f ....or grit sucked in through the intake from running the bike without air filters.

.
.


.

#712976 - 10/28/17 9:15 am Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: quinten]  
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Originally Posted by quinten
[quote]
I think
he's right, the verticial scoring lines look horrible.
theyre either from left over hone grit f ....or grit sucked in through the intake from running the bike without air filters.


From "a couple of miles" running, it will be a legacy of honing grit or some horrible broken piston ring problem.

Could be a case of someone selling their troubles.

Last edited by triton thrasher; 10/28/17 9:16 am.

Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#712984 - 10/28/17 12:01 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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kommando Online content
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The photo is just too dark and with no real reference points to know which way those scratches are going, but if they are vertical then the engine needs to come apart.

#712987 - 10/28/17 12:31 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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+1 with Kommando

#712989 - 10/28/17 12:50 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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I bought the bike from a Harley dealership mechanic. Judging from the rest of the build, I'd be surprised if he would be so sloppy to leave a bunch of grit in the cylinders. I'll look closer to see which way the lines are going but I'm with Kommando and Tridentman. What reference are people seeing to say the lines are vertical? Maybe I'm being foolishly optomistic but to me it looks like crosshatching as in this (google search) photo:
[Linked Image]

Last edited by Nick H; 10/28/17 1:08 pm.

Nicholas H
#712991 - 10/28/17 1:08 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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kommando Online content
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Quote
I got compression to 110 lbs with a bit of oil in the cylinder. Open throttle, 5 or 6 kicks and it maxxed out.


You need 100lbs to get the bike started, so it looks like the rings are not bedded in and you will not get it to reliably start until this is sorted. You finally get it started after some oil has been kicked up to the rings to get the compression over 100lbs, and if its flooded before then it will never start..

The question to answer is whether these rings are going to bed in at some time in the next few miles or if the engine needs to come apart and rehoned with new rings.

The Harley shop may be good with Harley's but Triumphs need a specific setup when fitting new cast iron rings, it needs a coarse hone and a dry install, if that does not match what Harleys need and they followed Harley practise then you need to reset by rehoning and new rings.

#712992 - 10/28/17 1:09 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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There's a brownish line around the bore with a black line beneath it, across the lower left third of the photo (I've assumed this is where the top ring gets up to). There's also a pale line from about 40% up from the lower right corner arcing to about 30% right of upper left corner. I'm assuming these lines are parallel with the cylinder head surface? That's what I've been thinking I'm looking at anyway. There are clearly visible lines crossing these perpendicularly, and it's these I;m thinking are score marks from grit.


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
#712994 - 10/28/17 1:46 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Hi Nick -

Without tearing it down, it's all going to be conjecture at this point anyway. So the question is, do you feel lucky?

If it was me, I'd take the top-end off and check the cylinders and rings. Not only could I potentially save gobs of money, I can learn more about the bike and engine which would only help me for future issues (and there will be future issues!) .These guys so far are giving you good advice.

BTW - welcome to the forum!! laugh

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#713012 - 10/28/17 6:05 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Nick, first make sure battery is all charged up. Since it is a fresh engine and has been run through some heat cycle it would be a good idea to adjust the valves on it. Now if it has stock camshafts set them like Johnson motors did. That will be 4thousands on the intake and 6thousands on the exhaust. If the valves are to tight it will make it hard to start and when checking the compression will make it low. If the valves are to tight this will happen. I have been working on these motors all my life and from your inside camera shot I certainly cannot come to any conclusions about the shape of bore. Those little cameras are only good to see if there is a major broken parts lurking about. So charge battery, check and set the valves, adjust timing, ride and do some pulls uphill and change the speed frequently. After a few hundred more miles torque starting from the barrel and go up. Then re set valves again. Hope this helps. If the cams are not the stock cams then of course set to manufacturers specs. A triumph runs a whole lot better if the valves are set a tad on loose side. Hence the JOMO specs I gave earlier rather than the factory settings. Good Luck.

#713013 - 10/28/17 6:07 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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sloppyoil Offline
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Nick, first make sure battery is all charged up. Since it is a fresh engine and has been run through some heat cycle it would be a good idea to adjust the valves on it. Now if it has stock camshafts set them like Johnson motors did. That will be 4thousands on the intake and 6thousands on the exhaust. If the valves are to tight it will make it hard to start and when checking the compression will make it low. If the valves are to tight this will happen. I have been working on these motors all my life and from your inside camera shot I certainly cannot come to any conclusions about the shape of bore. Those little cameras are only good to see if there is a major broken parts lurking about. So charge battery, check and set the valves, adjust timing, ride and do some pulls uphill and change the speed frequently. After a few hundred more miles torque starting from the barrel and go up. Then re set valves again. Hope this helps. If the cams are not the stock cams then of course set to manufacturers specs. A triumph runs a whole lot better if the valves are set a tad on loose side. Hence the JOMO specs I gave earlier rather than the factory settings. Good Luck.

#713015 - 10/28/17 6:31 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Hi Nick, Start by verifying again good voltage & good spark.

Do not take engine apart yet! 90# is low, but you don't know why. Honing pattern stays visible for many thousands of miles that is normal & good. Vertical lines may not be an issue overall. Those are known as optical lines which may be very shallow. Much different than a score or groove.

90# will start motor. On my own bike I blew head gasket between cylinders and had about 50#. Bike was very hard to start, but it started & would run I rode it 20 miles twice like this until I had chance to diagnose & repair. Cold compression is a crap shoot especially on new build. Adding oil raised compression is normal especially with a cold motor that is not fully broken in.

After motor cools oil drains off rings so it's normal to have compression loss by rings cold. Cranking & not starting takes even more oil from rings so it gets even lower. After oiling rings you got 110# so your compression is actually at least 110#.

You need to do proper diagnosis which is a cylinder leak down test. Low compression could also be tight valves. At least remove rocker caps & feel for clearance. Even a trace of clearance is enough to not cause hard starting.

Is the exhaust system clogged? Unlikely but possible & causes start then dies.

Without being there my strong suspicion is clogged idle passage in carbs. Not the idle jet, but the passage between float bowl passage & jet itself. This passage is not accessable & hard to clean. You can verify clear passage by blowing carb cleaner through passages in a specified manner with other passages blocked with fingers. Study cut away carb views on Bushmans AMAL carb tuning web sight & see what you're up against. I've always been able to clean them, but can be a fight.

After you get motor running I would strongly recommend changing oil to Torco TBO 40w break in oil. Run it 200 miles. Then go to regular oil. I like Mobil1 V-twin 20-50, But the break in oil is very important.

If you actually rode the bike, that means it was capable of starting & staying running.

If you don't have access to cylinder leak tester, start by verifying valve adjustment is ok. Then put near TDC compression on 1 cyl. With both spark plugs removed take a piece of rubber hose & blow air into cyl. with your mouth hard as you can. Have assistant listen for air coming out other plug. It should not. If air comes out head gasket is blown between cyl. Then you need to remove head & see why head gasket blew. Unless you'd see something awful, I'd still not pull cyl & re hone yet.

Start with verifying valve clearance. Then do the leak test with the hose. If those are ok, get back into carbs.

Don


1973 Tiger 750
#713020 - 10/28/17 7:33 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Thank you, Thank you! That's what's great about these forums - getting all kinds of opinions. Sloppyoil - I set the valves at 2 and 4 thousands (intake, exhaust respectively) as per specs I've seen. Maybe I should try a bit looser as you and TR7RVMan are suggesting.
I actually fabbed a tire valve to fit the plug hole and pumped it up with a bicycle pump at various piston points and observed how the valves were working noticing when air went out the carbs and the pipes. I was using a degree wheel and trying to confirm the valve timing. This is nothing I read or was told to do - just me desperate looking for answers. Opening and closing of valves checked out good by this method. I saw no indication of a blown head gasket. As to the carbs, I bought the Victory book and read about as much as I could find about the AMAL's. I believe all circuits are working as I did test them with spraying carb cleaner. Also new floats, float needles, needle jets, gaskets. And the new battery I make sure is fully charged. I've seen the spark and it looks good. So it's a real head scratcher. As I say, I have got it to start but it won't stay running. Could be those valves are too tight - I'll take another look.
Thanks you to all forum members who took the time to read my tale of woe and offer suggestions.


Nicholas H
#713026 - 10/28/17 8:14 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Originally Posted by Nick H

I actually fabbed a tire valve to fit the plug hole and pumped it up with a bicycle pump at various piston points and observed how the valves were working noticing when air went out the carbs and the pipes. I was using a degree wheel and trying to confirm the valve timing. This is nothing I read or was told to do - just me desperate looking for answers. Opening and closing of valves checked out good by this method.


Very clever. With this kind of thinking, this beast will surely submit to your will.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#713028 - 10/28/17 8:45 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Excalibur Offline
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Be prepared for multiple problems as is typical for bikes of the age. With poor compression, as a motor starts and warms up, the compression increases so they tend to run better and better. Let them cool off and you're back to difficult starting again.
Never assume the previous guy did the work right either, that's a rookie mistake. Systematically work through the steps and verify what you're seeing is correct. Post pics if you can. It's surprising what problems guys can spot.

Re valve clearances. These aren't critical at this stage, as long as there's some. Typically when I initially assemble a top end I do the tappets by ear. (Listen for sound of the click by hand). It's only at the retighten head stage do I get the feeler gauges out. If you have some clearance there, leave them your problem is elsewhere.

Do any leakdown test at exactly TDC on compression stroke. I suggest a quick and simple thing is to apply regulated 10psi. You'll always get some going past the rings but the trick is to know how much is too much.

#713032 - 10/28/17 9:16 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Tigernuts Online content
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Sloppy oil could be right about those vertical lines. no way of telling how deep they are from the photo. They could be merely superficial, in which case you're in luck! But they are clearly there and I hope everyone can see them?


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
#713165 - 10/30/17 3:24 am Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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TR7RVMan Online content
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Hi Nick, How did bike run when you road tested it for the couple of miles?


If timing & spark are good, That's not the problem.

Since bike will fire & run for a few moments it's capable of at least running so compression is good enough. You say you don't have blow over to other cyl. so head gasket is ok.

That only leaves the fuel system.

I cannot post photos here. I have cut away view photos of an actual carb Raber's keeps on their counter. It clearly shows the hidden passage. PM me if you really want to see it & I'll email it to you.

At the same time what type float & float needle are you using?

What is your float level & how did you set it?

Looking at float bowl you see 2 passages cast in rear of bowl that go up to carb body. These are idle fuel passages. Very important. Since carbs are left & right handed bowl is drilled for both sides, but if you look you'll see only one side is actually used. It's most important bowl gasket seals perfectly for this passage as any leakage will suck air & not actually pull fuel into carb idle circuit. This circuit is most important for starting & low speed running. If it's bad from air leak or clogged the carb has lack of low speed fuel & once fuel from tickling is used by engine it dies. Can be very hard to start motor & keep it reving above the idle fuel range. I've fought fully clogged or intermittent clogged passages on a few bikes & know how frustrating it can be. Of course idle jet always tested clear, because that wasn't blocked. When you add idle air passage problems to fuel passage it's not so simple sometimes.

If possible I like to see what the actual clog material was. I try to capture it in an old T-shirt. I have compressed air which is often a must. Often on older carbs it is white crust you find on zinc. Sometimes though it's a piece of zinc itself floating in passage. It took several attempts at cleaning my carb after 34 years of storage with old gas in carb. I've learned a few things since about cleaning. I've not touched idle RPM or mixture screws in a good 6k miles & carb still works perfectly. I just rode bike today & was thinking how trouble free carb has been. California fuel actually keeps carb really clean if bike is ridden.

So it seems you may have to do some thoughtful cleaning of carbs??
Don


1973 Tiger 750
#713181 - 10/30/17 10:11 am Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
If you getting 90 psi compression on a cold engine that may or may not mean anything............Cams with late intake valve closings will affect compression...My race Triumph with 10.5 pistons only shows about 60 psi compression when kicking it over cold with both plugs removed and the throttle open..But it starts on one stout kick...
And there's always the guy doing the kicking....I don't know the OP but it wouldn't be the first time an engine is hard to start due to "weak" kicking...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#713204 - 10/30/17 2:35 pm Re: Trouble starting new big bore [Re: Nick H]  
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Learning a lot here. Symptoms do point to the carb. I did go all through them and those idle passages are clear - maybe not clear enough? As to my kicking technique, I learned some time ago that the Boyer needs a fast kick. I'll practice.


Nicholas H
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