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#708374 - 09/14/17 12:09 pm !Solved: URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!!  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Peter Gee Offline
BritBike Forum member
Peter Gee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Kenya
Guys my TR6C fired beautifully on the second kick after at least 30 years of silence. I've only run it in very short durations of about 20- seconds each, 3 times since.., reprimed the rockers once with an oil pressure can....between attempts .. Great BUT......

(a). I had primed the crankcase with a half lire of oil to ensure I got return scavenge to check at once.

(b) I posted on two famous Triumph forums including here, viewed by over 200 people but not only 2 conflicting replies, as to which of the pipes, upper or lower on the oil feed block was return and which was feed. One person sent a diagram of the WSM circ diagram which idicated that the top pipe was the return. Anorther person at once posted that the WSM disgram was wrong, that was the Pre-Unit arrangement, and I was correct to state that the BOTTOM oil block pipe was the scavange from the larger, right hand pump plunger and the TOP pipe was the feed to the left,small plunger on the oil pump.

(c) I injected oil into the pipes unconnected from the oil tank and it seemed I had got (b) correct. It pushed oil from the lower of the FEED BLOCK metal pipes back up the hose when kicked. I am using a genuine Meriden second hand pump which was carefully re-assembled and certainly is working in pumping action.

(d) Carefully checked with air pressure my cleaned out oil tank. The type I have does not feed the rocker from a T junction under the tank, from the scavenge line, but has the arrangement on top with a very small dia right facing line to the rockers, a rear facing ditto line to the chain oiler, and has a waisted special oil adjuster screw that allows oil to feed the rocker always, but the feed to the chain can be stopped altogether ( by screwing all the way) or regulated by unscrewing.

I had air injected during building into the scavenge pipe at the bottom of the tank, and it streamed out of the rocker feed pipe just below the oil filling cap.

(e) On startup I got a big, quickly diminished blast out of the crankcase breather of oil mixed with assembly compound and etc..which was to be expected but

(d) I can't see any return from the small hole drilled into the main return internal tank pipe, and I am not getting any oil out of the rocker feed - ok I have only run an accumulated 60 seconds or less....I had a G3 Matchless I once rebuilt that took a full few minutes to suddenly start streaming oil out of the return as the system cleared air locks and bubbles and etc.... but I certainly don't want that kind of a wait on my Triumph --or maybe I should?

(e) Can I connect an oil pressure gauge Timing cover plug E2616 and check my feed pressure from there?

(d) I must be (?) getting some sort of circulation as the fresh oil in the clean tank has a bit of the milky coloured oil (the oil mixed with assembly compound and air that spat out of the breather as soon as she started) that's now floating on top ( probably from the aeration) of the golden fresh oil below it. But from where, unless the oil pipes are mixed up despite all precautions and she is returning through the gauze filter!?

I really and seriously need to get expert advice now as I am only some days away from the international show this bike is entered in. The rest of the rebuild seems good.

Thanks

Last edited by Peter Gee; 09/14/17 4:17 pm.
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#708392 - 09/14/17 1:48 pm Re: !!URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!! [Re: Peter Gee]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Peter Gee Offline
BritBike Forum member
Peter Gee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Kenya
Update:

Removed brand New Oil P Relief Valve domed cap - dry!

Removed E2615 Timing Cover Oilway blanking bolt - dry - kicked engine a few times. No oil issued.

I am suspecting there was very good reason I asked my question 3 weeks ago! Which metal pipe on the Oil feed/Return block is feed and which is scavenge? Top or bottom? Anyone with a Unit t650 win can confirm this at a glance.

Cheers

Peter

Last edited by Peter Gee; 09/14/17 1:49 pm.
#708393 - 09/14/17 1:52 pm Re: !!URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!! [Re: Peter Gee]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 455
edunham Offline
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edunham  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 455
Ewing. NJ
Is one of the metal pipes a larger diameter? That is usually an indication that it is the return side. If it was me, I would fill both metal pipes with oil and see which one pumped out when you kick the bike over. Once I determined that (which you may have done, I am not sure from your description), if I was still worried, I would prime both oil lines. By the way if you are using an oil filter on the return side that should be primed also. Finally, if you are still concerned, consider hooking up some transparent lines temporarily.

Ed from NJ

#708395 - 09/14/17 2:02 pm Re: !!URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!! [Re: edunham]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Peter Gee Offline
BritBike Forum member
Peter Gee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Kenya
Thanks Ed..I don't have another working Unit 650..if I did I would merely look to see which oil line goes to which part of the oil tank. Your suggestions are helpful.... cheers

Last edited by Peter Gee; 09/14/17 2:03 pm.
#708405 - 09/14/17 3:18 pm Re: !!URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!! [Re: Peter Gee]  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 558
Stein Roger Online content
BritBike Forum member
Stein Roger  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 558
Skudeneshavn Norway
Peter, the forward and lower pipe is the FEED line, and it feeds the forward, smaller plunger in the pump. That's the rule I use to remember, "feed forward".
edunham: On a unit twin the two pipes are the same diameter, on the T140 the feed is larger diameter. In the unlikely event that Peter has fitted a later oil junction block, that would be a useful clue.

#708409 - 09/14/17 3:49 pm Re: !!URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!! [Re: Peter Gee]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Peter Gee Offline
BritBike Forum member
Peter Gee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Kenya
Update: Well, swapping the feed and return pipes cured the problem.........Phew....... 18 month rebuild of a basket case, in Africa with limited facilities and no back-up besides great folks like these on here...she starts well, run now for much longer, oil returning like Niagara..and not a hint of a weep of leak anywhere, desp[ite dealing with a host of micro problems in hacked sealing surfaces, warped covers and who knows what this went through in deepest Tanzania.

I put this down to my "dry build" technique where apart from minimal assembly lube/grease as may apply, I seal everything and let it cure with Threebond or whatever is needed according to the joint or gasket.......for a good two weeks to longer, after which I retorque everything or at least check. Then I force feed the crank through the oil pipes with 25PSI or compressed air a good 100 cc of oil and put a half litre in slowly via the push rod tubes..and let it settle for an hour or two, then 20 dry kicks with the plugs out to get the airlocks out....

So far so good... I don't believe a well rebuilt British bike should leak and I I hope this one stays that way. Thanks for the suggests.

Last edited by Peter Gee; 09/14/17 5:07 pm.
#708417 - 09/14/17 4:59 pm Re: !!URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!! [Re: Peter Gee]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,001
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,001
Boston, Massachusetts
In the world of you try to learn something every day category here's one for you:

Quote
One person sent a diagram of the WSM circ diagram which idicated that the top pipe was the return. Anorther person at once posted that the WSM disgram was wrong, that was the Pre-Unit arrangement, and I was correct to state that the BOTTOM oil block pipe was the scavange from the larger, right hand pump plunger and the TOP pipe was the feed to the left,small plunger on the oil pump.


Most people who actually work on thee old bikes know that they changed the oil pump feed plunger location when they designed the unit construction motor. On the non-unit engines the feed plunger was to the rear of the engine and on the unit motors it was swapped to the front of the engine. This changed how the oil lines were attached: So we got the acronym: FFRR for UNIT engines or in real words Front Feed - Rear Return.

So I was thinking why did two people come up with different information from the Work Shop manual. Well I found out. When they made up the Unit Construction Work Shop manual they copied the oil circulation diagram from the non-unit WSM. The first 650 unit WSM I have, where they have it right, is the 1971-72 WSM. You learn something every day! or at least you should.

Quote
and I was correct to state that the BOTTOM oil block pipe was the scavange from the larger, right hand pump plunger and the TOP pipe was the feed to the left,small plunger on the oil pump


So much for the WSM. Then I read what you posted above. The unit oil pump's feed plunger (smaller) is on the right and the return (larger) is on the left. You described a non-unit oil pump where the feed plunger is on the left... If that's true that's some basket you have there. Or did you have one of those senior moments when you made this post?


#708419 - 09/14/17 5:10 pm Re: !!URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!! [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Peter Gee Offline
BritBike Forum member
Peter Gee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Kenya
I had only a partially senior moment...... being as I am a pre-unit man, I think it's forgivable. So the WSM is wrong , which is new to you..a rarity....and I got the pump plungers round the wrong way too, not a rarity but perhaps forgivable in a pre-unit man...... luckily no damage is done and she is ticking over like a steam train in waiting!

#708425 - 09/14/17 6:07 pm Re: !!URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!! [Re: Peter Gee]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 347
Dibnah Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dibnah  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 347
UK
Photos of the bike in Kenya please!

#708445 - 09/14/17 7:39 pm Re: !!URGENT TR6C Oil Circulation Problem!! [Re: Dibnah]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Peter Gee Offline
BritBike Forum member
Peter Gee  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 329
Kenya
Coming Soon Dibnah.......................


Moderated by  John Healy 


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