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#695819 - 05/19/17 4:50 pm Significant amount of oil in breather tube  
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Bola Offline
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The day finally came when I started up the 69 TR6R for the first time (yesterday) since 1975. Feels good. But after a short run up and down the street I noticed oil had gathered in the breather vent tube. The manual tells me to add 350cc of oil into the primary, which I did. But my motor shares oil with the crankcase and does not have a seal installed. Then I thought, if the motor shares oil with the primary do I need to add oil. Perhaps that's why I have surplus oil in my breather vent?

What does the collective recommend?

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#695821 - 05/19/17 5:12 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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If the case was already full, it certainly didn't need another 350 ml. Or was it a rebuilt engine with an empty primary case?

If you have no droops in the hose, how can oil gather in it?

Last edited by triton thrasher; 05/19/17 5:14 pm.

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#695825 - 05/19/17 6:41 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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kommando Online content
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The breather on a 69 is the large silver hose coming out the back of the primary and then running upwards before running over the rear mudguard, it will get oil in it but its length means only a little if any should reach the end. The first section just after the primary will get oil but it drains back into the primary.

You add oil into the primary case at the start when its empty to oil the chain but then you leave alone as it will find its own level until you empty the chaincase again.

#695826 - 05/19/17 6:46 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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This is happening to a friend of mine right now. I advised him to look in the oil tank to see what's happening. Oil should be spurting out the return pipe. If it's continuous, that means your sump is still full of oil and that is why oil is coming out of the breather.
If nothing is coming out, the return side of the pump has failed for some reason and the sump is full of oil and getting fuller. Don't ride it until you sort it out, if this is the case.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
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#695834 - 05/19/17 7:30 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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...in my opinion; why you need 350cc of oil in the chaincase? Also if it do not leak with all that you have proven how good that gasket is.

#695836 - 05/19/17 7:40 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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It is a fresh rebuild. 1/2 cup was added to the sump, 350cc/ml was added to the primary before start up. Oil is coming out of the return pipe in the oil tank at small intervals. Not a continuous flow. I'm wondering if this could be "pressure" related, because the kick-back on this sucker when starting is a sum`abitch. Pert near throws me across the room. When kick starting a tiny bit of compression vapour puffs out the air cleaner. Normal?? My 72 Bonnie did not have the same starting characteristics. However I never knew the piston compression ratio in the 72. The TR6R is I believe 9.5:1

manual says 350cc in primary.

[Linked Image]

#695837 - 05/19/17 7:44 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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Ah- home made, with a horizontal section.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#695839 - 05/19/17 8:07 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Bola Offline
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I do believe this is factory. It has all the same attributes of the "D" section model.

#695840 - 05/19/17 8:19 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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Compare and contrast.

[Linked Image]


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#695850 - 05/19/17 9:23 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Bola Offline
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Compare and contrast.

[Linked Image]

OK, understood. What leads me to believe that this is factory stock is because I am the second owner. The first owner had no mechanical knowledge whatsoever and would very likely not have a shop install a breather vent. Besides this I have seen the inside cases and believe that the three tiny drilling for sharing oil was made by the factory. Also, being a 69 (NC025XX) makes this models birth a late 68, therefore I would suggest that this breather vent is a first iteration installed by Triumph. All the fastening areas and plumbing on the bike point to a Triumph install. The same as the "D" section models. All except where it exists the crankcase, as in your photo.

But with that said, I'd still like to know why there is this much oil in the tube and if the vent is actually doing its job if oil continually sits in that location.

#695851 - 05/19/17 9:37 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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Is the baffle plate in place, inside the primary case?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#695853 - 05/19/17 9:41 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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Neither you nor I know what idiots have owned and modified that unfortunate bike during the last 48 years, but at least one of them liked brass plumbing fittings.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#695857 - 05/19/17 10:14 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Neither you nor I know what idiots have owned and modified that unfortunate bike during the last 48 years, but at least one of them liked brass plumbing fittings.

You have a point.

This is the only photo I have of the primary. I don't remember a baffle plate during dismantle/reassembly.

[Linked Image]

#695868 - 05/19/17 11:37 pm Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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That's the problem. My 72 has a plate and a small tube to drain that scoop just above the chain. The tube oils the chain near the alternator. Yours is draining into the breather.
Clever use of pipe insulation by the way. Cancel this I just saw the tube. Is it hooked up?

Last edited by desco; 05/19/17 11:42 pm. Reason: spelling

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#695875 - 05/20/17 12:11 am Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Bola
being a 69 (NC025XX) makes this models birth a late 68, therefore I would suggest that this breather vent is a first iteration installed by Triumph.

Originally Posted by Bola
I do believe this is factory. It has all the same attributes of the "D" section model.

Originally Posted by kommando
The breather on a 69 is the large silver hose coming out the back of the primary and then running upwards before running over the rear mudguard,

grin You are both completely and hopelessly wrong.

Look at the '69 650 parts book, pages 14/15:-

. Look at the view of the drive-side crankcase at the top of page 14. Note the absence of anything poking out of the inner face of the primary chaincase.

. Otoh, note the positions and descriptions of part #7 - "Breather pipe (metal)" and part #39 - "Breather extension pipe". And #2, 3 and 4 - "Breather disc", "Locating pin - at disc" and "Inlet camshaft bush".

Look at pages 12/13:-

. Note parts #38 and 39 - "Rotary breather valve" and "Breather valve spring".

. Look at part #35 - "Inlet camshaft"; note it is drawn hollow, as it was in real life, for the "Rotary breather".

. Look at the same pages in the '70 650 parts book; note the absence of "Rotary breather valve" and "Breather valve spring", and the camshaft is not drawn hollow, as in real life.

Originally Posted by Bola
I don't remember a baffle plate during dismantle/reassembly.

Look again at page 14 and the view of the drive-side crankcase at the top of the page. Compare it with the same page and the same view in the '70 650 parts book. Compare them with the picture "thrasher" posted ...

Originally Posted by Bola
What leads me to believe that this is factory stock is because I am the second owner. The first owner had no mechanical knowledge whatsoever and would very likely not have a shop install a breather vent.

Unfortunately, either you do not have all the history of the bike or someone's been telling porkies. The primary case breather on your bike was not installed at Meriden.

To be absolutely clear, the additional parts I've indicated on pages 14/15 of the '70 650 parts book, plus "the large silver hose coming out the back of the primary and then running upwards before running over the rear mudguard", were first installed from sometime in May 1969 (EC date code), on both 650's and 500's. They were the "first iteration".

Originally Posted by Bola
I don't remember a baffle plate during dismantle/reassembly.

That's why "oil had gathered in the breather vent tube"?

Originally Posted by Bola
[Linked Image]

Note also that the primary breather on your bike has been placed just above part of the crankcase casting that will prevent oil flung off the chain from draining back to the bottom of the primary ... facepalm

Originally Posted by Bola
Oil is coming out of the return pipe in the oil tank at small intervals. Not a continuous flow. I'm wondering if this could be "pressure" related,

Nope, they all do that, sir. smile

The scavenge side of a dry-sump oil pump always has a greater capacity than the feed side, so oil never builds up in the sump. When the engine's running, fed oil passes through the engine components then drains into the sump, to be scavenged back to the tank. If the scavenge has greater capacity than the feed, sometimes there won't be any oil in the sump so the pump sucks air. Hence the "small intervals" between spurts of oil out of the return pipe in the oil tank.

Originally Posted by Bola
the kick-back on this sucker when starting is a sum`abitch. Pert near throws me across the room.

This has nothing to do with oil pressure; it cannot; if the engine isn't running, how can there be any oil pressure?

Originally Posted by Bola
if the motor shares oil with the primary do I need to add oil.

Yes.

The "motor" does not "share oil with the primary", the crankcase vents through the primary - two different things. As such, only crankcase vapour passes through the primary; it can have tiny droplets of oil, passing the crankcase vapour through the volume and lower temperature of the primary case, it's hoped that most of these droplets will condense. Over thousands of miles, these condensed oil droplets might raise the primary oil level to the alternator rotor, causing power-sapping drag, hence the three drain holes into the crankcase visible by the alternator stator.

However, waiting for condensed oil droplets to accumulate sufficiently in the primary to lubricate the chain, clutch, etc. is not a viable substitute for replacing an actual quantity of oil in the primary after opening or draining it.

Hth.

Regards,

#695877 - 05/20/17 1:48 am Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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I like the open vented setup introduced by Triumph around 69/70 my own '69 t120 has it.
I also did a similar thing to my A65.
The oil in the level in the primary case is automatically controlled and needs no checking, so as i'm
a lazy sod, it suits me.
Ran the same mod on all my A65 racing engines too, worked very well.

The engine however does share lube, the open bearing allows huge amount of mist and throw though
and will fill to the bearing level very quickly. The 3 small holes are an also ran. I used to drill a 3mm hole
level with the adjuster pillar as an assistance to the drain on the a65's angled upward slightly.
The bearing cage gaps will allow particals to go the other way so check the sump filter every now and then as
it's like ww3 in the primary case with the motor going and you will get some dross in there.
With your modified case i would just put a right angle elbow on the exit from the primary allowing the
tube to rise vertically, that will cure the oil sitting there.



#695899 - 05/20/17 9:08 am Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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Originally Posted by NickL
would just put a right angle elbow on the exit from the primary allowing the
tube to rise vertically, that will cure the oil sitting there.


Yes, there's every chance that will work perfectly.

Perhaps a bigger diameter aperture and hose wouldn't hurt.


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#695973 - 05/21/17 1:55 am Re: Significant amount of oil in breather tube [Re: Bola]  
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And remove that restrict-or thing in the tube.




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