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#694748 - 05/10/17 11:24 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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TR7RVMan Offline
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Hi Bola, Lay on your back & look up at the oil junction where it bolts to engine. On a '69 650, the steel line at front side of nut is feed to oil pump. The motor sucks oil from the tank through this line.

Prime it like John Healy says. Then just start motor. Oil light should go out. If not you have problems & need to check with a pressure gauge.

If oil is not added to motor sump the return will start in about 40 seconds after start up.

Suppose all is good & you just started motor up, again it would pump out return in 40-50 seconds. Seems like forever when you watch it. Then it takes another 15-25 seconds to bleed the air out of return hose. After that return oil will look normal.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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#694753 - 05/10/17 11:48 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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ohio, usa
i have a blue oil can and a gray oil can.

the blue one contains motor oil and the gray one had assembly lube in it, until i lost it.

i lose my grease guns too. now i have five, currently all in one place.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#694763 - 05/11/17 2:26 am Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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Well... Adam M and I spent most of the afternoon sorting this business out. Turns out I did have the lines hooked up correctly. The manual is wrong. After much deliberation it was decided that the timing cover should come off to prime the oil pump. The lines were also swapped to my original position, having changed them according to the manual. Ended up with crankcase front to tank feed, crankcase rear to tank return, The sludge tube and crankcase already had been primed/filled.

I am finally seeing oil return to the tank with only a misting of oil presence at the rocker feed pipe. Should there be more oil flow at the rockers?

#694770 - 05/11/17 5:36 am Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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Normal feed to the rockers is hardly a flow at all.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#694781 - 05/11/17 11:24 am Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Some of you guys put a lot of money and time into rebuilding the engine..And don't fit an oil pressure gauge for at least the initial start up.....I'm no expert but have put together about 10 Triumph engines in the last 5 years....Many of the engines had improper oil pressure, usually way too high, over 100 psi in some cases. The fault was always the pressure relief valve spring...In my opinion the oil pressure is far more important than watching the return in the oil tank....You can have return flow with near zero oil pressure....


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#694783 - 05/11/17 11:41 am Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: John Healy]  
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Great Southern Land
Originally Posted by John Healy
As a method to prime the oiling system turning the engine over is probably the worst thing you can do to a new engine.


I would agree if the engine was assembled dry....but if you use a good quality assembly lube [not oil] I see no problem at all.

And - although I respect your opinion and your expertise John - I still think that the so called chances of doing damage are way overstated. You are kicking the motor over at say 200 rpm with spark plugs out, so no fuel, no spark, no load, no compression, and no heat.

I always do it, it lets me see that the engine is working, no clicks, grinds or other noises....plus I get to see that the feed and the return are both working - you can't have one without the other if you had nothing in your crankcases to start with [except assembly lube on the cams, crank, bearing etc.

#694788 - 05/11/17 12:50 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: tridentt150v]  
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Originally Posted by tridentt150v


And - although I respect your opinion and your expertise John - I still think that the so called chances of doing damage are way overstated. You are kicking the motor over at say 200 rpm with spark plugs out, so no fuel, no spark, no load, no compression, and no heat.





John Healy almost always recommends conservative safe techniques...He was and still is a name in vintage Brit bikes....He has no idea on the skill level the readers have that take his advise to heart... If their motor throws the crankshaft onto the pavement from something he suggested, They will let everyone know he caused the destruction...So he plays by the rules...
Something to keep in mind, every known engine builder of fame suggests excessive cranking of a new engine does more harm than good...Make sure it's prelubed as start it it...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#694789 - 05/11/17 12:55 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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John Healy Online content
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Quote
You are kicking the motor over at say 200 rpm with spark plugs out, so no fuel, no spark, no load, no compression, and no heat.


and no flow of oil!

While your free to your opinion, I think if you google "priming the oil system of a new engine" you will find a lot of reputable sources who hold a different opinion.


#694822 - 05/11/17 6:41 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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In above case engine was very much primed with oil in the cases, lines and crank.
We filled an oil pump, started kicking and oil showed up in main gallery in timing cover very soon.
Getting it to the oil tank took some more time.
Bola has an oil pressure gauge installed on his A65, perhaps it would be not so difficult to transfer it temporarily to Tr6, just to check a pressure.

#694830 - 05/11/17 7:17 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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HawaiianTiger Online content
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Maui Hawaii
When you watch the Triumph factory video, there is a scene where the bikes are put on a "rolling road" which turns over the motor via the back wheel for some time while an inspector goes over it checking this and that.
It must make Mr. Healy just cringe to see that! I'm sure they stopped that practice at some point....

I just help a friend return his bike to the road. Part of the process was to prime the Morgo rotary pump. It's a right royal pain in the ass folks. It's too much hassle for a street bike, so get their excellent plunger pumps unless you're racing.

Part of my personal way of re-animating these bikes is to pop out the plugs, squirt some oil into the combustion chamber and kick over a few times to spread the oil on the cylinder walls, valve guides etc.
Usually the oil light goes out while I'm doing this if the key is on. It's a bit reassuring. However in this case, it didn't and it prompted me to dig into my failing memory to find a post here that warned about priming the rotary pump.

Britbike.com saves my butt again.

Or, rather, my friend's motor. It would have been his motor that went bang, after all. (Of course, I'd get the blame.)

However, when we got in the timing cover, I spotted the seal inverted! I just happened to have the correct seal in my parts bin. My friend likes to run 40w oil in his bike. I advised against it. He didn't listen. But I hope he listened when I told him not to rev his motor while it's cold.

Putting an oil gauge will allow you to spot a failed oil seal if you know what to look for. You'll still have oil pressure, just not enough.

But, all's well now. Bike runs good and is going on the market soon.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#694835 - 05/11/17 7:49 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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Death row next in line norfolk
I have primed pre unit Triumphs by removing timing cover and oil pump also the inlet camshaft nut then refit pump with the plunger slots facing outwards then using a pair of locking grips on plungers worked them up and down till I got oil pumping out of feed dowel, then its just a case of reassembling oil pump and cover in right order. I also give the crankshaft a good squirt of oil in the end feed and put oil into crankcases....Dave


1941 BSA WM20
1958 TRI-BSA 750 PRE UNIT
1957 THUNDERBIRD
1932 R E MODEL GS SPECIAL
1947 BSA YM21
#694856 - 05/12/17 12:16 am Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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reverb Online content
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...just arrived (night here) with a grin. I needed automotive paint etc so I took my 1948 500cc and rode these 60kms to buy the stuff. This time all at 100km/h and the return by night. My bike is worn out and these motors and the more robust Bonnevilles took more abuse than the HDs and other brands and still kicking and performing BETTER than the other oldies; so I am not an expert or racer but a rider of one of the older machines in this forum as a DAILY rider, so to keep this fella working properly with all that worn out parts and no Triumph mechanic or shop in this part of the world I say that at least the older engines have plenty of clearance (I do not know the exact term) to not seize with 30 seconds of not oil in the rockers and to the tank.
The only important parts are the bearings. So normally most people use assembly lube and oil in the main bearings; shell bearings; camshafts; rocker balls and tappets and have the crankshaft full of oil for the shell bearings too; then a squirt of oil in the rocker boxes. The pump is always assembled with oil; then a bit of oil in the crankcase and the oil in the tank...you no need more oil man; takes almost nothing to get oil returning to the oil tank. There are no kms of oil lines...
Nothing to seize or damage with all of that oil and assemble lube there. What part can you damage? the rubber and metal tubes?

So Bola; what s the manual that is wrong?

#694887 - 05/12/17 4:46 am Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: John Healy]  
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Great Southern Land
Originally Posted by John Healy
Quote
You are kicking the motor over at say 200 rpm with spark plugs out, so no fuel, no spark, no load, no compression, and no heat.


and no flow of oil! But plenty of assembly lube!!!
While your free to your opinion, I think if you google "priming the oil system of a new engine" you will find a lot of reputable sources who hold a different opinion.


And just as many stating otherwise.

#694928 - 05/12/17 1:24 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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Bola Offline
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Originally Posted by reverb
So Bola; what s the manual that is wrong?

The photo on page A5 showing the oiling system for all Triumphs from 1963-1970. Huge mistake if you follow this diagram for your unit bike. The feed and scavenge plunger on the oil pump are opposite on my model, and I suspect many other unit construction models through the years.

#694935 - 05/12/17 2:12 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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desco Online content
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Again, the manuals and parts books should be considered guides and not bibles. When Triumph found mistakes they issued "bulletins" most of which never made it into the hands of the masses. Some people on this site have them and that's why it always pays to ask.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#694963 - 05/12/17 6:17 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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John Healy Online content
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Quote
you will find a lot of reputable sources


May I humbly offer the opinion of Mahle as a reputable source, who recommend that the engine be primed. As a point they make both bearing and camshaft pre-lube. In spite of supplying these protective lubricants they recommend pre-lubing the engine so oil is circulating immediately upon start up.

But all this concern about rod bearings, one has to consider the life of the camshafts. The camshafts and lifters, even when using a camshaft pre-lube need additional oil splash, above the cam pre-lube, to survive initial running in. They need this lubrication whether the engine is under power or being turned by hand or a starter motor. The flow of oil provides lubrication, but also removes heat. Two ground surfaces are not smooth and it takes a while for them to mate. In the mean while you get micro- heating as the two surfaces mate to each other. This especially important when using heavy, over the nose, spring pressures.

The pressure of the valve springs doesn't care if you are turning the engine over with the plugs out and have put God's own camshaft pre-lube on the lifter/cam faces.

You are faced with two problems with that slow kick over speed while attempting to get oil flow. It isn't all about the rod/main bearings. When breaking in (mating) camshafts to the lifters it is recommended the rpm not fall below 1,500 rpm for a short time after initial turning over of the engine (Mahle's quote: "no idling!") and the additional oil spray from the crankshaft on the camshafts is essential to help prevent micro-welding, whether the engine is running or NOT. Even Mahle recognizes this.

Quote
And just as many stating otherwise.

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion and can do what ever you please!

Last edited by John Healy; 05/12/17 6:18 pm.

#694966 - 05/12/17 6:37 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: tridentt150v]  
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Originally Posted by tridentt150v

And just as many stating otherwise.



But it's not a democracy.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#694972 - 05/12/17 7:30 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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John Healy Online content
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Quote
The feed and scavenge plunger on the oil pump are opposite on my model


That picture is a carry over from the Triumph Workshop manual No. 17 for the Non-Unit engines. You will find a lot of this type of problem with pictures and printed text in workshop manuals, as well as parts books.

At least they didn't make the same mistake in the illustration for the Unit pump on page A10. They got that right. This is the plunger arrangement used from 1963 all the way to 1983.


#694975 - 05/12/17 7:39 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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John Healy Online content
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Quote
When Triumph found mistakes they issued "bulletins" most of which never made it into the hands of the masses.


When we got new parts books for a given year and model it would come with an addendum sheet. Often it would run 8 pages single spaced. Except for parts books that come from David Gaylin (who has seemed to drop from the scene), none of the parts books that come today are corrected or have the addendum sheets.

And then there is a list of parts where the number was used several time for different parts, or there is multiple iterations of a part with the exact same number. Two that come to mind is the front wheel cover 37-1332 which has three iterations and 97-1946 which also has three iterations. Selling Triumph parts, and educating the buyer to what he needs to know, consumes a lot of time.

Then of course the co-operative stop selling Triumph 650 parts and started using old 650 numbers on different 750 parts. - There excuse, "We don't make 650 parts and don't care if we are confusing people."


#694981 - 05/12/17 9:12 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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reverb Online content
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...regarding up to 1983; what s up with the Harris years? I mean; could be up to 1987?

#695039 - 05/13/17 11:42 am Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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tridentt150v Offline
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Great Southern Land
Interesting.............because the manual has exactly the same diagram [except its oil tank vs OIF] for the T140V electric start Fig A1 page A4..

The feed is on the inside the return is closest to the header pipe, the oil pump and the way the pipes connect to it are the same as well. So this means that both Triumph Workshop manuals are incorrect - even though they are printed some 15-20 years apart. Triumph must have kept using the same 'incorrect' illustration all those years smile.

And even more interesting....I go out to the shed and check my late model T140 and it is hooked up as per the manual and has been for many kilometres.

Obviously somebody is wrong???

Last edited by tridentt150v; 05/14/17 7:31 am.
#695095 - 05/13/17 5:26 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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reverb Online content
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South cone
...hello Tridentt150v; I just checked the 78 and 79 workshop manuals and both are ok. Both drawings are different only in the way the feed tube gets out from the oil filter but both have the feed towards front of the bike...I think the 80s models have the same drawing.

#695148 - 05/14/17 7:33 am Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: reverb]  
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Great Southern Land
Yeah, reverb, same here, I was always talking about the tubes/pipe fitting

#695219 - 05/14/17 9:11 pm Re: No return oil flow to rockers or oil tank [Re: Bola]  
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Dibnah Online content
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An oil accumulator is an option.

I run a couple of Rover V8s (much improved Buick 215), important to rev the engine to 1.5k rpm or more when starting from cold to get good oil pressure

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