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#711855 - 10/17/17 11:15 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: old mule]  
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Originally Posted by old mule
Don't forget that certain lubes are not compatible with phosphor-bronze,
The issue is when sulfur is used as an additive to give grease or oil the Extreme Pressure (EP) rating needed for use in gearboxes. However, the bronze in question will be for the small end and therefore only exposed to oil. Although I will use Morris 400EP semi-fluid grease, along with a dash of Millers Classic Green Mineral Oil, in the gearbox, the Morris passes a Cu corrosion test (and is widely used without problem in Burman gearboxes) and the Millers is a non-EP formulation.

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#712017 - 10/19/17 8:52 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
The new season of ‘Ariel’ starts next week.
I hope this is still true, i.e. next week. I decided it best to fix the issues that arose on my Catalina during its recent ~1000-mile run while they're still fresh in my mind before turning full attention to the Ariel. With luck the Catalina will be completely ready to go again, um, mañana. I should have everything I need to take care of it already in hand, with the exception of new Hagon shocks now on their way to me from British Cycle Supply.

#712059 - 10/20/17 4:19 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Despite me working on the Catalina, progress is being made on the Ariel thanks to Chaterlea25. A 4" rod of 1-1/2" OD PB1 bronze arrived yesterday from Ireland so I now have everything in hand to make the reducing bushing for the small end. In case anyone is interested, the yield strengths of three common bearing bronzes are:

SAE 660 __ 14-20 ksi
PB1 ______ 25 ksi
Ampco 18 _ 41 ksi

Despite Ampco 18's greater yield strength it is much harder to machine than the other bronzes and Chaterlea25 assures me he has successfully used PB1 in small ends for years without problem.

I don't know what kind of steel the rod is made from but, even assuming the worst for its coefficient of thermal expansion, a PB1 bushing with a 0.002"-0.003" press fit will be nicely retained even if the rod is glowing red from the amazing h.p. generated.by the Ariel's engine. It will be trickier to hone the bushing to the final ~0.0005" clearance needed for the pin but I have the necessary Sunnen mandrel so "only" need to design and make an adapter for it to mount in my lathe.

#712250 - 10/22/17 4:38 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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My Catalina returned from its ~1000-mile ride along with a list of 14 items that need attention (e.g. solder replacement nipple on valve lifter cable). Although I've only managed to cross 4 items off that list so far, it only should take another day or two to deal with most of the remaining. The time-consuming two items will be to completely rebuild an ASCT gearbox to swap for the current SCT, and to rebuild the forks.

The gearbox is now in a million pieces on my workbench and last night I sent C&D Autos a list of the necessary bushes, gaskets, etc. so I hope to have them in hand within two weeks. Meanwhile, I have at least some of what I need (e.g. NOS Torrington needle bearings) so I can get a good start on the gearbox rebuild while waiting for the parts to arrive.

#712522 - 10/24/17 3:14 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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After a lengthy silence, yesterday we got an update on the Cannonball. The update to the website that has been listed as "Coming Soon" since March is now expected to happen "hopefully within the next few weeks." Meanwhile, since the web site is still being worked on, next week names of the riders will be sent to us via email next week.

There are 105 riders signed up and the final route will be 3875 miles with the list of cities along the way "coming soon," but the schedule will be:

September 6, 2018 Official Registration/Tech Inspection
September 7, 2018 Official Registration/Tech Inspections/Rally School/Practice Run/Banquet
September 8, 2018 Depart Portland, Maine
September 16, 2018 Arrive in Sturgis, SD
September 17, 2018 Rest Day Off, Sturgis, SD
September 23, 2018 Grand Finale Portland, OR

The update says they've secured blocks of all the hotel rooms needed but a web page to secure individual reservations won't be posted until May.

That's all that I know about it for now.

#712683 - 10/25/17 5:31 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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The last day of my recent "mini-Cannonball" Gold Star ride covered 300 miles with stops only for gasoline and a quick lunch. I soldiered along all day on my BB at a steady 3000 rpm (43% of the 7000 rpm redline) and it felt like the engine would last forever. So, with that in mind:

I infer from Ariel's literature that they considered ~5500 rpm as redline for this engine and I'd like to gear it to keep the engine at or below 50% (or 43%), of redline for maximum reliability on this long ride. The Ariel already has the largest listed engine sprocket (23T), but I'm now hoping to find a gearbox sprocket that is larger than the 19T that's on it now.

With present gearing 50% of redline is 48 mph (41 mph at 43%) so, for example, if I were able to substitute a 20T gearbox sprocket that would increase to 50.5 mph (43.3 mph) and with a 21T to 53 mph (45.5 mph).

To someone in England an additional 5 mph may not seem like much, but if you look at a map of the U.S. Midwest (or of Canada, or central Australia) you'll see that there are stretches of road that are essentially straight for 400+ miles. Every mph helps get to the destination sooner, and every decrease in rpm allows the engine to last longer.

#712797 - 10/26/17 4:35 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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3875 miles in 15 days of riding means some 300 mile days on the Cannonball. A happy cruising speed of 50mph would be great for sure.

#712840 - 10/26/17 9:51 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: RPM]  
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Originally Posted by RPM
A happy cruising speed of 50mph would be great for sure.
I've now learned that Burman used a different spline on later gearboxes so finding a donor sprocket on which to weld a ring with more teeth isn't going to be easy. However, I don't think I'll have trouble being ready for the start of the Cannonball next September thanks to my full time mechanic, machinist, purchasing agent, travel agent, logistics specialist, and project manager to keep everyone on task and on schedule... oh, wait, I don't have any of those people...

#712846 - 10/26/17 11:16 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
<SNIP> However, I don't think I'll have trouble being ready for the start of the Cannonball next September thanks to my full time mechanic, machinist, purchasing agent, travel agent, logistics specialist, and project manager to keep everyone on task and on schedule... oh, wait, I don't have any of those people...

Oh yes you do, it's just that they're all occupying the same body ,,,

.. Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
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#712856 - 10/27/17 12:42 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: gREgg-K]  
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Originally Posted by gREgg-K
it's just that they're all occupying the same body ,,,
You can't get decent help these days. If my purchasing agent had been halfway competent he would have thought to check Draganfly's web site to see if they have the sprocket, which they do. It's pricey at £65.63, but I already had resigned myself to fabricating the sprocket by broaching the appropriate splines in a blank so I had a fair idea how much time that would take.

So, on order from Draganfly is a stock 19T sprocket that my project manager will have my machinist butcher into a 21T or 22T.

#712882 - 10/27/17 8:02 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Just remember to get the team together at least once a month or they will all go off doing their own thing wink

#712908 - 10/27/17 3:15 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: kommando]  
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Originally Posted by kommando
Just remember to get the team together at least once a month or they will all go off doing their own thing
The weakest link is the project manager. However, I'm stuck with him for the duration because his job security on this project makes that of French workers seem almost non-existent.

p.s. On the subject of sprockets, I learned this morning that the entire crankshaft sprocket and cush drive assembly from later Ariels would fit on my 1928 engine, which would give me access to a wider range of sizes. Also, less drastic surgery is needed to swap engine sprockets which would be a big advantage if this turns out to be necessary midway in order to make it over the Rocky Mountains.

The road to the top of an 8000 ft. mountain starts 10 miles from where I live so that will be my initial test track for carburetor and gearing issues. Once I'm happy with how it seems to be working I can trailer the bike 175 miles (100 of which is via 75 mph Interstate highway, hence the need for trailering) to the start of a ~200-mile loop through the mountains, most of which is over 6000 ft. and half over 8000 ft.

Although it's possible the organizers could announce a route that could take us as high as 10,950 ft. my tests at somewhat lower altitude should give me a good idea whether I can keep the same gearing for the entire Cannonball, or if I will be forced to change sprockets to get over the Rockies. If properly rejetted for the thinner air the h.p. loss is ~3%/1000 ft. so it will be ~10% less at 11,000 ft. than at 8000 (fully 1/3 less than at sea level). How much my Ariel struggles at 8000 ft. will give me a good idea how it will deal with 11,000 ft. Having mountains at my disposal gives me a bit of an advantage in preparation over someone who lives in Kansas. Of course, it's only an advantage if I get the bike prepared in time to do that testing...

I plan to buy X-ring chains which should be good for the 4000 miles without any lubrication, although I would hit them with a daily dose of chain lube to keep external rust away and provide lubrication between the chains and sprockets. Does anyone have any experience with X-ring chains under these conditions of minimal maintenance that indicates this isn't a good plan?

Last edited by Magnetoman; 10/27/17 5:04 pm. Reason: p.s.
#712934 - 10/27/17 8:29 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
I plan to buy X-ring chains which should be good for the 4000 miles without any lubrication, although I would hit them with a daily dose of chain lube to keep external rust away and provide lubrication between the chains and sprockets. Does anyone have any experience with X-ring chains under these conditions of minimal maintenance that indicates this isn't a good plan?

My Triumph Sprint has an X-ring chain, which has only needed adjusting once in ~ 3,000 miles. It gets a hit of Bel-Ray spray chain lube every 250 miles or so on the road or when I get home from a ride.
I don't know how well one will stand up to the Ariel's 25 h.p. and 300 lb. as compared to the Triumph's mere 120 h.p. and 550 lb.

#712941 - 10/27/17 9:05 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Can I jump ahead with a question:

We have all been following the 'build' with interest. It really is fun particularly if you don't have to spend the money or worry about the end result.

My Question: Are we going to be able to follow you during the ride?


Alan
Cleared m out....left only
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#712961 - 10/28/17 3:16 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Thanks to Kurt Fischer a Chronometric arrived today that is perfect for the Ariel. Although age-inappropriate, its 80 mph range is suitably optimistic for the bike (as opposed to one with a 120 mph range), and it was supplied on 1952 'Road Model' Gold Stars. The reason that's appropriate, for me at least, is that ten years after Val Page designed the 'Black Ariel' range he was at BSA where he designed the B and M range, i.e. the Gold Stars we know and love (the first model was an M24).

I already had installed a speedometer sprocket on the rear wheel, and have the necessary angle drive, so all that is needed is to machine a drive sprocket to give the correct 1600 turns/mile.

Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
I don't know how well one will stand up to the Ariel's 25 h.p. and 300 lb. as compared to the Triumph's mere 120 h.p. and 550 lb.
It's too bad the parameters of your Triumph are so different that it's impossible to infer from it how long an X-ring chain would last on my Ariel. I'll just have to cross my fingers and hope for the best.

Originally Posted by Alan_nc
Are we going to be able to follow you during the ride?
I'm not sure anyone would want to read "Today was an uneventful 250 miles on a dead-straight road in the Midwest; tomorrow will be the same." Almost by definition, if I had something interesting to write about at the end of the day (e.g. "The rear tire shredded at 60 mph nearly killing me and bending the frame which now needs straightening") I would be too busy dealing with it that night to write about it.

In 6 months this thread has gathered 2x as many views in the Ariel forum as the next one that has been here for 8 years so there's interest. So, it might be worthwhile to look for a social media manager within my multiple personality disorder since there's the possibility to reach a substantial number of people with some effort. But, other than Linkedin, which I was "forced" to join two years ago and as a result where I'm now connected to ~2000 of (presumably) my nearest and dearest colleagues, I've avoided social media. Unless you count Britbike as social media, that is, which it certainly seems to be in the Facebook sense for a half-dozen who always seem to be in the Shout Box when I glance at it.

#712968 - 10/28/17 5:38 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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The Cannonball website usually has a daily summary of events and photos/videos (somtimes of flaming wreckage) as well as the results for the day showing positions. I think the report is usually by the sweep marshal whose job it is to, well, sweep up the mess.
Rob C
PS : Last time social media was very involved after the event when it was used to find a truck full of 'bikes and spares that were stolen from a competitor.

Last edited by robcurrie; 10/28/17 5:44 am. Reason: Added PS
#712997 - 10/28/17 2:29 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
I plan to buy X-ring chains which should be good for the 4000 miles without any lubrication, although I would hit them with a daily dose of chain lube to keep external rust away and provide lubrication between the chains and sprockets. Does anyone have any experience with X-ring chains under these conditions of minimal maintenance that indicates this isn't a good plan?

Oldest 'O'-ring chain I have is 25 or 26 years old. I fitted it to a '77 CB750A shortly after I bought the bike in '91 or '92, that I was using for a daily 70-mile round-trip all-weather commute. I also fitted a Scottoiler (although, at the time, it wasn't called a "vSystem" 'cos it was the only one Fraser Scott sold). Chain adjustment reduced from a regular weekend chore to one or two flats on the adjuster bolts at the 1500-mile service intervals. I did about 10,000 miles - taking the chain adjustment about half-way - before changing jobs and not needing to ride the bike every day.

Although I appreciate it isn't a consideration on the Cannonball, one of the reasons the chain's lasted so long is, because it and the rollers on the sprockets are lubed and cleaned all the time the bike's being ridden, all the bits are lubed and clean at the end of a ride without me needing to do anything. When I first fitted the chain, sprockets and Scottoiler, this was useful as I could arrive home after a wet ride from work, put the bike in the garage, leave it for a period and return to a working chain rather than a solid rusty bar. Now that's just handy if I don't ride the bike for a period of time.

Subsequently, Fraser Scott advised that, if lubed with a Scottoiler, chains on my other bikes didn't need to be '-ring' ones; that was also handy because Triumphs aren't noted for their generous clearance around the gearbox sprocket ... so far, I've yet to need to replace a Scottoiler-lubed chain.

I appreciate a 1928 Ariel probably doesn't have a vacuum take off to run one of those chain oilers, but there are electric ones, and cheaper ones of the different types by other makers.

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Linkedin, which I was "forced" to join two years ago and as a result where I'm now connected to ~2000 of (presumably) my nearest and dearest colleagues

Tch, you aren't trying ... Can't remember how long I've been on LinkedIn (much longer than two years) but I still get regular emails saying how "13 more contacts [to 30] will accelerate [my] career" ...

Probably rules me out as your social media manager? cool

Hth.

Regards,

#713006 - 10/28/17 4:48 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Stuart
I appreciate a 1928 Ariel probably doesn't have a vacuum take off to run one of those chain oilers, but there are electric ones, and cheaper ones of the different types by other makers.
Someone in the Ariel club also suggested adapting a Scottoiler, not for the chain, but for the exposed valve gear. I looked into it and there is a place above the engine, between the frame tubes, where one would fit. Unfortunately, instructions for the vacuum operated version say it needs a minimum of 30 cm pressure head in order for the oil to flow, and the electric version requires the same plus, well, electricity, which is in very short supply on the Ariel. So, unless I mounted a gravity-fed oiler on a gantry 6" above the top of the fuel tank it wouldn't work for lubricating the valve gear.

Offline someone asked me about my plans for the gearing. In case anyone else is interested, the overall ratio of the Ariel in top gear at the rear wheel with the current, stock gearing is:

engine/clutch x gearbox/rear = 23T/44T x 19T/47T = 0.2113

That is, one revolution of the engine results in 0.2113 turns of the rear wheel so in one minute at 3000 rpm the wheel makes 633.9 revolutions. Since the rear tire has a circumference of ~85", in one minute it travels ~633.9 revs x 85"/rev x 1 ft./12 in. x 1 mile/5280 ft = ~0.85 miles. One mile/min. is 60 mph so this overall gearing means ~51 mph at 3000 rpm.

The Ariel's overall gearing in top gear of 0.2113:1 is 4.8% higher than that of my BB Gold Star which is 0.2017:1. They have the same rear tire so at 3000 rpm on both machines the Ariel would be traveling 4.8% faster.

The reason to increase the overall ratio of the Ariel in top gear wouldn't be to go faster, but to lower the engine rpm at a given road speed. Specifically, to bring the engine speed down to ~2500 rpm at 50 mph. However, increasing the overall ratio also increases the ratio in the lower gears.

Comparing gearboxes, 1st gear in the Ariel is 2.79:1 vs. 2.58:1 of the BB, i.e. the Ariel is 8% lower. Hence, if I swap a 22T gearbox gear for the current 19T in order to increase the overall ratio by 15.8% it will make 1st 7% higher than that of my BB. That is not insignificant, but based on how the BB performs (albeit, having more h.p.) I have reason to expect that it will be OK for the intended use on the Cannonball. However, I'll only know for sure when I finish the bike and am able to test it.

By the way, the difference between low and high in the 3-speed Ariel gearbox is 2.79, which is close to the 2.58 of the BB's STD gearbox and the 2.88 of an SCT.

I'm making a big push to finish my Catalina this weekend. I've already decided to forego rebuilding the forks at this time, so what remains is to finish rebuilding the ASCT gearbox and swap it for the SCT that's in the bike now. Luckily, I found that I had everything needed for the rebuild on hand because I haven't heard back from C&D about the order I sent them six days ago. I sent them a reminder, but still without response.

While on the subject of gearing, the ASCT was a one-year-only gearbox for 1962 Catalinas like mine, with the same ratios for 2nd-4th as the SCT but with a significantly lower 1st. I'll also be swapping the "scrambles" 18T engine sprocket on it now for a "touring" 21T sprocket, raising the overall ratio by 17% to make it significantly less buzzy at highway speeds. Although that also will raise first gear it still will be 5% lower than it is now thanks to the ASCT gearbox.

Originally Posted by Stuart
Can't remember how long I've been on LinkedIn (much longer than two years) but I still get regular emails saying how "13 more contacts [to 30] will accelerate [my] career" ...
For reasons not worth explaining I was forced to join, and since I was in anyway I've tried to think of ways it might be helpful. Unfortunately, maybe it's because of the career I have, but I have not been able to figure out how Linkedin might be useful for me. But, I accept new contacts when I don't think they will require any effort from me to respond (e.g. not from sales people, anyone in temporary positions unrelated to mine, etc.), and quickly delete them if they do, so I'm ready to exploit the hell out of Linkedin if/when I ever figure out what it's good for.

#713008 - 10/28/17 5:26 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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The Ariel doesn't have a vacuum take-off, but it does have vacuum. You can make an attachment for a Scottoiler vacuum pipe.

If you can't get enough head (Quiet at the back!) above the valve gear, why not slightly pressurise your reservoir of oil? That used to work just fine on some car windscreen washer sets.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#713016 - 10/28/17 6:42 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
why not slightly pressurise your reservoir of oil?
Giving it head violates the KISS principle. Adding a pressure system would complicate matters. If it failed, and was noticed in time, access to the oiler would require removing the fuel/oil tank, on which the hand gearchange mechanism is bolted. Further, if an oiler fails to oil the chain it's not a huge deal, but if fails to lubricate the valves it's a potential disaster.

#713017 - 10/28/17 6:42 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: triton thrasher]  
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triton thrasher, there are some other oilers available that don’t need the vacuum take off. Some are just drip feed with a tap but others work by only dripping oil when the bike is moving using a sort of mechanical motion sensor so MM wont necessarily need the vacuum take off if he goes for an oiler. I suspect MM knows about all of this already.

Hi MM, I finally joined the forum, you know me as the guy who currently has a broken finger.

GK

#713019 - 10/28/17 7:07 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
if fails to lubricate the valves it's a potential disaster.



You're more worried about it than the makers were.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#713024 - 10/28/17 8:06 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Magnetoman  Online Content

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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,976
U.S.
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
You're more worried about it than the makers were.
True, but then I again perhaps I know more about the lubrication issue than the makers knew 90 years ago. Even they knew more a few years later than they did when they made my bike, when they realized they needed to enclose the valves and provide them with proper lubrication.

Ixion writes in Chapter 14 'The Fifth Phase--1920 to 1930' of 'Motor Cycle Cavalcade' that "Certain items of air-cooled engines -- notably, the cylinder bore, the valve faces, and the piston rings -- wore far too fast, confronting the owner with the choice between costly renewals and rattles plus inefficiency." ... "One more problem of a less obvious character clamoured for solution. Hitherto, practically all four-stroke motor cycles had been lubricated on the 'total-loss' method... Whatever oil was present in the crankcase was always extremely hot... Every 3,000 miles or so we removed carbon deposits from the engine." At the end of the chapter he summarizes the result of the decade's technical developments on reliability by writing "If I take the Flying Scot to Edinburgh, I do not report...that it covered its 400 miles without a breakdown." It's great that the ability to cover 400 miles without a breakdown was no longer newsworthy by 1930, but the Cannonball is 4 thousand miles.

I'm pretty sure that when Val Page designed the 1928 Ariel's engine he didn't do so with the idea it survive riding Lands End to John O'Groats 4.5 times in two weeks with minimum maintenance.

#713066 - 10/29/17 11:25 am Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: George Kaplan]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,295
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,295
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Scottoiler,
for the exposed valve gear. I looked into it and there is a place above the engine, between the frame tubes, where one would fit. Unfortunately, instructions for the vacuum operated version say it needs a minimum of 30 cm pressure head in order for the oil to flow,

Hmmm ... I never knew that ... the one on the Honda is on the frame tube behind the sidepanel - 6"? above the bottom of the rear sprocket, the ones on Triumphs are behind the numberplates under the '73-on rear lamps. Worth an e-mail to Fraser Scott?

Certainly for a chain, I've found the position of the end of the delivery tube is far more important than the quantity of oil delivered. With the delivery tube end by where the bottom run of the chain runs on to the rear wheel sprocket, I ended up with the Scottoiler set to one position above minimum in the dry, increased by one position in the wet; any more and the back of the bike is just covered in more oil. The O-ring seals on the split-link were easy to check; long term, the remainder of the chain is obviously fine too. smile

Originally Posted by George Kaplan
oilers available that don’t need the vacuum take off. Some are just drip feed with a tap but others work by only dripping oil when the bike is moving using a sort of mechanical motion sensor

I looked at these when I was getting ready to fit that first O-ring chain, plus at least one that worked with the up-down motion of the swinging arm. However, I got that first Scottoiler at mate's rates and have been happy with 'em ever since, so couldn't say what other varieties are still available today.

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
I have not been able to figure out how Linkedin might be useful for me.
I'm ready to exploit the hell out of Linkedin if/when I ever figure out what it's good for.

You 'n' me both. I'll share if I figure it out first.

Regards,

#713074 - 10/29/17 1:12 pm Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,881
triton thrasher Online content
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triton thrasher  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,881
scotland
You are allowed to try it with less than 30 cm.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
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