BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
  JWood Auction  
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Photo posting tutorial

Member Spotlight
Roger Gulledge
Roger Gulledge
Oahu Hawaii USA
Posts: 255
Joined: January 2012
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
221 registered members (57nortonmodel77), 1,770 guests, and 551 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
XTINCT, Bruce Roberts, Brian Ellery, Jon Andrews, Berni Ernst
9957 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
btour 190
koan58 100
Stuart 86
NickL 71
Popular Topics(Views)
437,702 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums33
Topics65,282
Posts632,294
Members9,957
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#655593 - 06/05/16 9:30 am Flat battery  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 148
TriVin Offline
BritBike Forum member
TriVin  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 148
Warrington, Cheshire, UK
Hi...........Tiger 100SS 1967.
Went for a ride on it today. About 50 miles in hot weather, for the UK anyway.
Checked the battery before I left and it was 12.5V. Everything OK until just before I got home and then the ammeter started showing a discharge and the little volt meter LED that I have fitted in the headlamp shell started flickering red. I suspect that the solid state reg/rectifier that I have under the seat got too hot and either is buggered or just temporarily overheated. Since it is fitted with a Boyer as soon as the voltage dropped under 12V it started playing up. Finally cut out just as I got home! Only a short push! Battery now reads about 11V. So, if I'm correct how do I check if it is the rec/reg to see if the damage to it is temporary or permanent? I suppose it really should be hanging in the wind under the headlamp to keep it cool.
Oh, and I did not accidentally have the lights on either!

Any help appreciated as my electrical knowledge is not as good as it should be.

Thanks


Dave
Tiger 100SS 1966
T120V 1972
Vincent Comet 1952
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!
Membership Type! Free
Member
Premium
Member
Premium Life
Member
Vendor
Member
Site
Sponsor
Recognition No Premium Member Premium Life member (5 years) Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
Post commercial threads No No No Yes Yes
Custom title No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Upload avatar & photos No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Link avatar & photos Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Private Message Storage: 10 100 100 100 100
Length of signatures 255 600 600 600 600
Removes this very advert island between post 1&2 No Yes Yes Yes Yes
Price Free $12.90/year $105.00 No End
$55.00/5 years
$210.00/year
($17.50/month)
Email
Click on button >>
  Premium Member Premium Life member Vendor Member Site Sponsor Membership
#655624 - 06/05/16 2:08 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,671
desco Online content
BritBike Forum member
desco  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,671
Bishop, Calif.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#655625 - 06/05/16 2:13 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,069
KC in S.B. Online content
BritBike Forum member
KC in S.B.  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,069
Santa Barbara, California
I have the same set up on a few bikes, and that voltage drop Boyer syndrome is always on my mind. I would 1st ask how old the battery is? I have come to the conclusion that after about 3 years, you are on borrowed time. You didn't mention any upgrades to the charge system, but some of them do help,.... A bit. Claims of "HI Output" parts need to be balanced with your pwn practical experience of RPM and charging ability. Sure, they will put out more Amps, at what RPM is the question, and do you ride there? I have gone to using lower draw lamps where I can, and an LED bulb in the pilot position for daytime running. This does help enough that I now have to be the human Voltage Regulatot, and when my Voltmeter shows 13.5 volts, I turn on the headlight to prevent overcharging. It's not ideal but works.
I am curious if your voltage indicator is a Sterling LED. I have one that works great, but can't find them anymore. It came from UK, so wonder if you have a source?


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 2 '56 Chevys
#655632 - 06/05/16 3:04 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: KC in S.B.]  
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,583
quinten Online content
BritBike Forum member
quinten  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,583
Pacific northwest

As mentioned , the battery could be crap , and drawing down the voltage below
The charge circuits ability to keep the voltage up .
In this case , Starting the bike and unhooking the battery would allow voltage
To climb into the normal zone .
The bike should not stall if rpms are kept slightly above an idle .

If the DC voltage continues reading low ,
is
it the alternator , failing to produce raw AC , commensurate to RPMs
Or
A failure in the rec/reg box .
Or
simply a failed but hard to find wiring connection between components .

To test the alternator ,
With the bike running on battery alone ,
Test the alternators raw AC ability with a spare headlight jumpered to the disconnected alternator wires .
The bulb should pulse and glow at idle
and glow brighter with increased RPMs .
Careful , a good alternator can light 2 headlights and easily blow 1 .
So Go easy on the rpms or use 2 headlights wired in series .

Now you know
you at least have AC power in .
The alternator has been 'roughly' load tested.

There a better tests that can tell you 'exactly' how much ac power
is available from the alternator ,
but i gotta worn you ,
the test equipment can cost up to $15.

.

#655635 - 06/05/16 3:47 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: KC in S.B.]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Stuart Online content
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Scotland
Hi KC,

Originally Posted By KC in S.B.
how old the battery is?
I have come to the conclusion that after about 3 years, you are on borrowed time.

shocked You ... you ... battery murderer! Good grief, what d'you do to 'em? ... Feed 'em small doses of battery strychnine every day? Seriously, I'm displeased if I don't get a decade out of a 'name' battery, and even the cheap one I bought when I first put the T100 on the road lasted over eight years, albeit it didn't need to do electric-starting.

Originally Posted By KC in S.B.
Claims of "HI Output" parts need to be balanced with your pwn practical experience of RPM and charging ability. Sure, they will put out more Amps, at what RPM is the question,

Original Lucas and Sparx are easy. Lucas advertised x Amps @ 5,000 rpm and either 75% or 85% of that @ 2,400 rpm. Sparx publishes more-detailed rpm-vs.-Amps figures - http://www.tri-corengland.com/acatalog/test_results_1.html but they're essentially the same as Lucas originals, just ignore the "Std Alt" columns and "Sparx Alt Watts" column.

Wassell "Genuine Lucas" are more difficult. frown Their "16A" and "20A" stators might well produce that, but they don't publish any corresponding rpm and no-one that's bought and tested any of them says they've seen the claimed Amps on a Britbike. frown

Originally Posted By KC in S.B.
when my Voltmeter shows 13.5 volts, I turn on the headlight to prevent overcharging.

confused Everything should be happy with at least 15V. The supplement with the 73-78 twin workshop manual, that covers the 3-phase alternator and Rita e.i. fitted '79-on states that the Zener regulating Voltage is 14.7V-15.8V. Boyer-Bransden e.i. fitting instructions state they'll still work up to 16V.

Originally Posted By KC in S.B.
voltage indicator
It came from UK,

Al Osborn's LED Battery Status Monitor? Note that the LED is selected to display Green - "Battery on charge" - above 13.8V up to 15.25V.

Hth.

Regards,

#655638 - 06/05/16 4:14 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Stuart Online content
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Scotland
Hi Dave,

Originally Posted By TriVin
I suspect that the solid state reg/rectifier that I have under the seat got too hot

It would help to know the make but why jump straight to that conclusion? Plenty of rec./reg. function for years under Triumph twin seats, I'm not saying you're wrong but, unless there's other evidence pointing more-directly at the reg./rec., it's maybe wise to keep a more-open mind about the source of the problem?

Originally Posted By TriVin
Battery now reads about 11V.

You have a battery charger that can charge at the desirable 1/10th Ah rate? Then first thing I'd do is put it on charge for minimum ten hours and see what the Volts are after that. It isn't conclusive but, if it's still at 11V or just above 12V, you'll know the battery's buggered.

Hth.

Regards,

#655673 - 06/05/16 11:48 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,069
KC in S.B. Online content
BritBike Forum member
KC in S.B.  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,069
Santa Barbara, California
Stuart,....... I will continue to murder batteries at will, and have done so for the last 40 years !!! a decade ? Not possible in my garage!
Thanks for the link. That looks similar to the unit I bought from a supplied named Sterling years ago. Likely the same specs I'd guess. mine was a simple 2 wire connection with no other hemroids involved.
Who rides around at 5,000 RPM.....Show of hands please ??? Battery murderers !!!!! ( I don't know how to do those Box things)


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 2 '56 Chevys
#655682 - 06/06/16 1:47 am Re: Flat battery [Re: KC in S.B.]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Stuart Online content
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Scotland
Hi KC,

Originally Posted By KC in S.B.
Who rides around at 5,000 RPM

Mmmm ... but "either 75% or 85% of that @ 2,400 rpm":-

. RM21 and RM23 single-phase are 75%, of 10.5A and 14.5A @ 5,000 rpm respectively;

. low- and high-output 3-phase are the same 10.5A and 14.5A @ 5,000 rpm respectively, but 85% @ 2,400 rpm, so a high-output 3-phase - either original Lucas RM24 or Sparx - is producing more than 12A at 2,400 rpm; bigt

. curiously, for a reason I don't yet understand, Lucas's figures show the earlier RM19 and RM20 stators also producing around 85% of rated @ 2,400 rpm, even though they're single-phase; unfortunately, a RM19 regulated to a nominal 12V only produces about 8.5A @ 5,000 rpm ... frown

Originally Posted By KC in S.B.
I don't know how to do those Box things

When you click the "Quote" button under a post, the site then displays the post text with "quote=(a name)" at the beginning of the text and "/quote" at the end, both inside a pair of square brackets - "[" and "]".

The square brackets denote a 'HTML tag', the "/" denotes an 'end tag' - if you click on the "B" (Bold), "I" (Italicise) or "U" (Underline) buttons, note the editor adds appropriate HTML tags either around the text you highlighted or for you to type text between?

To have the site "do" a "Box thing", having clicked on the "Quote" button under the post, just delete the text you don't want to appear in the "Box" in your post, add your text above the "[" before "quote=" and/or below the "]" at the end of "/quote" - e.g. I added:-

. "Hi KC," and a blank line above the "[" before "quote=KC in S.B.";

. the text beginning "Mmmm ..." below the "]" at the end of "/quote".

If you want to quote more than one bit of text from a post - i.e. make more than one "Box" - the "quote=" and "/quote" inside their square brackets must appear at the beginning and end respectively of each bit of text you want to "Box" - e.g.:-

. "quote=KC in S.B." and its square brackets is at the beginning of both "Who rides around at 5,000 RPM" and "I don't know how to do those Box things";

. "/quote" and its square brackets is at the end of both bits of text for "Boxing";

. if you click on the "Quote" button at the bottom of this post, the above should be clear. smile

Click on the "Preview Reply" button to see what your post'll look like.

Hth.

Regards,

#655764 - 06/06/16 5:52 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
dave jones Offline
BritBike Forum member
dave jones  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
have you checked the alternator connections under the engine? My bike did the same as yours and this was the cause. It was dark and I had the lights on but they gradually went really dim and people kept flashing me.

Dave

#655830 - 06/07/16 12:29 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,069
KC in S.B. Online content
BritBike Forum member
KC in S.B.  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,069
Santa Barbara, California
Stuart,....... Nice tutorial !! I'll have to go somewhere and practice......


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 2 '56 Chevys
#656283 - 06/10/16 3:51 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
dave jones Offline
BritBike Forum member
dave jones  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
Having read this thread again I thought I would check my battery after a quick afternoon run on which I only used the led pilot light and normal tail light. I had previously had the battery on my Optimate and it showed two green lights. I only went on an 8 mile test run for something else. After a gap of 5 hours I have just removed the surface charge as best I could by putting the full lights on for 15 seconds and the battery only read 11.7 volts. The ammeter does show some charge so I think my battery probably isn't very good! Bike ran well, though.

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 06/10/16 3:52 pm.
#656314 - 06/10/16 6:15 pm Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,454
HawaiianTiger Online content
BritBike Forum member
HawaiianTiger  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,454
Maui Hawaii
It is surprising how long you can go with a supposed "bad" battery such as yours.
Well, as long as you don't run an analogue Boyer ignition, anyway.

It's not that I'm cheap (I am, actually) but as long as a bike starts, runs and otherwise performs as expected, what does a single a volt matter?

Just put a new battery on the list of things you need. It's not an emergency...it's a warning.

Cheers,

Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#656378 - 06/11/16 4:26 am Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
dave jones Offline
BritBike Forum member
dave jones  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
Thanks, Bill. I will check to see how old this battery is to make sure it hasn't died prematurely. I normally avoid fixing or checking things until there is blackness or actual destruction!

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 06/11/16 4:28 am.
#656400 - 06/11/16 7:22 am Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 622
tbird649 Online content
BritBike Forum member
tbird649  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 622
Sunny Sussex, UK
I run a Capacitor on mine, a 2MC equivalent. Doesnt matter if the battery were to go flat, in fact I use a 3Ah alarm battery, and that is only so it will tick over with the lights on.



#656829 - 06/14/16 6:28 am Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 148
TriVin Offline
BritBike Forum member
TriVin  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 148
Warrington, Cheshire, UK
Well it turned out to be the battery. It just refused to hold a charge after being on my Optimate all day. Dropped from 12.6V to 10.5V in just a few hours! Never had a battery go dead on me so suddenly. They usually just get slowly worse.

Anyway, I thought I would try a Westco AGM this time but someone has just told me that for these the fuse has to be in a particular line but could not remember which one!! Never heard this before and makes little sense to me anyway. Anyone know for certain about this? My existing fuse is in the positive earth line.


Dave
Tiger 100SS 1966
T120V 1972
Vincent Comet 1952
#656835 - 06/14/16 8:10 am Re: Flat battery [Re: TriVin]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,220
JubeePrince Online content
Life member
JubeePrince  Online Content

Life member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,220
Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted By TriVin

...but someone has just told me that for these the fuse has to be ine a particular line but could not remember which one!!


Never heard that before. The later OIF's had the fuse off the (-) terminal (positive ground). protects against the various bits (ignition,lights,horn, battery terminal/seat, etc...) shorting to ground.

There are people here who advocate for putting the fuse on the (+) side, or even fusing both sides. On custom harnesses you can even fuse each component separately. Just my thoughts, I'm by no means an electrical expert!

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#656838 - 06/14/16 9:23 am Re: Flat battery [Re: JubeePrince]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,799
kurt fischer Online content
#irideslow
kurt fischer  Online Content
#irideslow

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,799
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
Originally Posted By JubeePrince
... or even fusing both sides. On custom harnesses you can even fuse each component separately. ...

Steve


That's the way I do it.

And next time I plan to use this ganged fuse block.

As to battery, I just installed a Motobatt MB9U. (With thanks to Stuart for the recommendation.)


Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000

Moderated by  John Healy 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.162s Queries: 15 (0.006s) Memory: 0.9333 MB (Peak: 1.2118 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2017-11-22 05:43:49 UTC